Let's Talk Judaism!

[chosen_people]

OK, it is not just in the bible but in textbooks that the Jews did this to Jesus, it reads that the court or government didn’t want to kill Jesus, but the Jews wanted to crucify him that same day, and they forced the court/government to do so (and when Jesus died the temples were destroyed) do you think this was a simple coincidence?

No matter what religion you are i will pray for you
God bless!

Well there were two temples. The first one was destroyed long before the figure of Yeshua bar Yosef in Christian scriptures. The second temple was destroyed by the Romans in
70 c.e,. decades after the death of Yeshua bar Yosef in Christian scriptures.

Supposedly the figure of Yeshua bar Yosef was so popular among the Jews that the Romans deemed it wise to arrest him and execute him, presumably as a political agitator/leader. However, after he is arrested he is apparently so unpopular among the Jews, that the Romans are now “forced” to execute him, because of his unpopularity.

Now Judea was a vassal state under Rome so it’s not clear why they would defer to the Jews or the Sanhedria in making a decision to arrest and execute a Jew whom they considered a liability. In any case, the Sanhedria under Jewish law could not order anyone executed unless someone was willing to speak in his defense (the people involved in writing the Christian scriptures were perhaps unfamiliar with Jewish Law). Had he been sentenced by the Sanhedria he would have been stoned to death. If the crowds were so unruly couldn’t they easily have accomplished this? If the Romans wanted “to wash their hands” of the whole thing, and the Jews had infact sentenced to him death and wished to see him die, why not just leave Yeshua to the Jews?

Of course, we have to understand how it came about that the same person who could draw crowds of thousands, suddenly, literally overnight,turned against him. This is explained as Yeshua claiming to be a god and rejecting Torah. The problem here is that the question of the deity of the Yeshua figure would only be finally decided in Christianity during the fourth century.

Now it is not clear why a single person would engender such an extreme reaction, however from a Jewish perspective according to God’s law in the Torah, the death sentence (by stoning) would have been indicated to a person advocating rejecting Torah and claiming to be a god in human form. So at best “The Jews” are being blamed for acting in accordance with the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people (the logic here is that God made an eternal covenant with the Jewish people whose sole purpose was to bring the Jews to aid in the killing of the same God in human form because he stood in total contradiction to the eternal covenant between God and the Jews:shrug

Finally, according to Christian theology the whole point to the life of Yeshua bar Yosef was to sacrifice himself for the sins of mankind, and since Christians believe that Yeshua is a god and since it impossible for a human to overcome a god - it follows that all actions leading to the execution of the Christian deity,were according to the Christian perspective,
a part of their god’s plan.

Of course, we may have different “textbooks”

 

[adstrinity]

I must interject here and correct something. Jesus was not declared divine in the 4th Century. He was considered divine by His followers who personally knew Him and all who followed their teachings.

 

[irishcolleen45]

Well there were two temples. The first one was destroyed long before the figure of Yeshua bar Yosef in Christian scriptures. The second temple was destroyed by the Romans in
70 c.e,. decades after the death of Yeshua bar Yosef in Christian scriptures.

Supposedly the figure of Yeshua bar Yosef was so popular among the Jews that the Romans deemed it wise to arrest him and execute him, presumably as a political agitator/leader. However, after he is arrested he is apparently so unpopular among the Jews, that the Romans are now “forced” to execute him, because of his unpopularity.

Now Judea was a vassal state under Rome so it’s not clear why they would defer to the Jews or the Sanhedria in making a decision to arrest and execute a Jew whom they considered a liability. In any case, the Sanhedria under Jewish law could not order anyone executed unless someone was willing to speak in his defense (the people involved in writing the Christian scriptures were perhaps unfamiliar with Jewish Law). Had he been sentenced by the Sanhedria he would have been stoned to death. If the crowds were so unruly couldn’t they easily have accomplished this? If the Romans wanted “to wash their hands” of the whole thing, and the Jews had infact sentenced to him death and wished to see him die, why not just leave Yeshua to the Jews?

Of course, we have to understand how it came about that the same person who could draw crowds of thousands, suddenly, literally overnight,turned against him. This is explained as Yeshua claiming to be a god and rejecting Torah. The problem here is that the question of the deity of the Yeshua figure would only be finally decided in Christianity during the fourth century.

Now it is not clear why a single person would engender such an extreme reaction, however from a Jewish perspective according to God’s law in the Torah, the death sentence (by stoning) would have been indicated to a person advocating rejecting Torah and claiming to be a god in human form. So at best “The Jews” are being blamed for acting in accordance with the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people (the logic here is that God made an eternal covenant with the Jewish people whose sole purpose was to bring the Jews to aid in the killing of the same God in human form because he stood in total contradiction to the eternal covenant between God and the Jews:shrug

Finally, according to Christian theology the whole point to the life of Yeshua bar Yosef was to sacrifice himself for the sins of mankind, and since Christians believe that Yeshua is a god and since it impossible for a human to overcome a god - it follows that all actions leading to the execution of the Christian deity,were according to the Christian perspective,
a part of their god’s plan.

Of course, we may have different “textbooks”

Chosen people, you are misinformed.
Jesus states, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill (as the Messiah). Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place”. (Matthew 5:17-19)
We worship the God of Abraham, Moses and all of the prophets. The Old Testament contains the books of the Torah, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,Deuteronomy as well as the books of all of the prophets. In fact today at Mass, the first reading was Exodus chap 3 in which Moses hears God’s call to rescue the Israelites from Egypt. God told Moses that He is “I am who am”. Then we sang Psalm 103.
Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God. You do not believe. I will pray for you.

 

[chosen_people]

Chosen people, you are misinformed.
Jesus states, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill (as the Messiah). Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place”. (Matthew 5:17-19)
We worship the God of Abraham, Moses and all of the prophets. The Old Testament contains the books of the Torah, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,Deuteronomy as well as the books of all of the prophets. In fact today at Mass, the first reading was Exodus chap 3 in which Moses hears God’s call to rescue the Israelites from Egypt. God told Moses that He is “I am who am”. Then we sang Psalm 103.
Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God. You do not believe. I will pray for you.

The use of the term Torah was in its wider sense, the law. Catholicism rejected Torah with the claim that their messiah “fulfilled the law”. The reason for this rejection was practical. Catholicism, unable to convince the Jews to reject their eternal covenant with God, sought their adherents among the general pagan population. Torah required a population that not only had the acumen to understand the nuances of differentiation based on varied circumstances, but which also possessed universal male literacy. This was not the case in the general pagan population. Catholicism overcame this problem by turning itself into a dogmatic religion, with an hierarchy to decide its tenets of faith. These tenets could be learned by rote and its adherents were determined by their declaration of belief in these tenets. The differences between an intellectual religion like Judaism as compared to a dogmatic religion like Catholicism becomes most apparent in exactly those cases where intellectual reasoning is required in application of moral rules. An example may be found on this forum in the discussion on whether it is ever okay to lie, with the example of a Nazi searching for Jews and the person being asked by the Nazi knowing where the Jews were hiding. Judaism developed concepts, based on the Tanach and intellectual reason, like pikuach nefesh, where the sanctity of life trumps the immorality of telling an untruth. This may be compared to the unwavering Catholic principle that to lie is a venal sin.

 

[fms]

**Christ was a Jew, so why don’t Catholics observe Judaism? **

 

[chosen_people]

**Christ was a Jew, so why don’t Catholics observe Judaism? **

Christianity is not theologically compatible with Judaism - it is not some form of completed Judaism.

 

[chosen_people]

I must interject here and correct something. Jesus was not declared divine in the 4th Century. He was considered divine by His followers who personally knew Him and all who followed their teachings.

You may want to check out the history of Arian Christianity.

 

[adstrinity]

You may want to check out the history of Arian Christianity.

You mean the history of the Arian heresy? That came 200+ years after Pentecost. That was a heresy precisely because Christians believed Jesus was/is God and the heretics began the teaching that he wasn’t.

 

[ryanoneil]

Christianity is not theologically compatible with Judaism - it is not some form of completed Judaism.

“IF” the New Covenant of Christ and (Jer 31:31) are the same then Christianity “IS” theologically compatible with Judaism.

 

[Splinker]

“IF” the New Covenant of Christ and (Jer 31:31) are the same then Christianity “IS” theologically compatible with Judaism.

What do you mean by compatible? Are you saying a christian is following the beliefs of judaism and vice versa?

 

[schaick]

The use of the term Torah was in its wider sense, the law. Catholicism rejected Torah with the claim that their messiah “fulfilled the law”. The reason for this rejection was practical. Catholicism, unable to convince the Jews to reject their eternal covenant with God, sought their adherents among the general pagan population. Torah required a population that not only had the acumen to understand the nuances of differentiation based on varied circumstances, but which also possessed universal male literacy. This was not the case in the general pagan population. Catholicism overcame this problem by turning itself into a dogmatic religion, with an hierarchy to decide its tenets of faith. These tenets could be learned by rote and its adherents were determined by their declaration of belief in these tenets. The differences between an intellectual religion like Judaism as compared to a dogmatic religion like Catholicism becomes most apparent in exactly those cases where intellectual reasoning is required in application of moral rules. An example may be found on this forum in the discussion on whether it is ever okay to lie, with the example of a Nazi searching for Jews and the person being asked by the Nazi knowing where the Jews were hiding. Judaism developed concepts, based on the Tanach and intellectual reason, like pikuach nefesh, where the sanctity of life trumps the immorality of telling an untruth. This may be compared to the unwavering Catholic principle that to lie is a venal sin.

This is where I believe some of us of all faiths have mis-understood what Jesus said…

Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus being the only one that could truly obey GOD’s Law completely.

ful·fill   /fʊlˈfɪl/ Show Spelled[fool-fil] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1.to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2.to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3.to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.): a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
4.to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
5.to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively): She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.

I really appreciate and understand “Torah required a population that not only had the acumen to understand the nuances of differentiation based on varied circumstances, but which also possessed universal male literacy”

 

[ryanoneil]

What do you mean by compatible? Are you saying a christian is following the beliefs of judaism and vice versa?

Compatible in terms of Christianity being the fulfillment of Judaism. That is assuming Jesus is the heir to David’s Kingdom, and the second Law of Moses was temporary.

 

[fms]

Judaism Fulfilled

 

[lax16]

Hi

With due respect:

What do you think; if the Jews of the time of Jesus were justified in putting an innocent person Jesus on Cross with the intention of killing him in a disgraceful manner?

I don’t blame the present day Jews of the crimes of the Jews of the Jesus’ times.

Thanks and regards

I thought the Roman soldiers crucified Jesus?

 

[marrowsm]

Is it possible/allowed to have a bar mitzvah and confirmation? My boyfriend and I are considering how we would raise children and thought about trying to do both.

 

[Splinker]

Is it possible/allowed to have a bar mitzvah and confirmation? My boyfriend and I are considering how we would raise children and thought about trying to do both.

Not from a Jewish perspective.

 

[Splinker]

OK, it is not just in the bible but in textbooks that the Jews did this to Jesus, it reads that the court or government didn’t want to kill Jesus, but the Jews wanted to crucify him that same day, and they forced the court/government to do so (and when Jesus died the temples were destroyed) do you think this was a simple coincidence?

No matter what religion you are i will pray for you
God bless!

I have no idea what textbooks you are talking about or why, assuming what you say is correct, the fact that there are text books which say the Jews forced thier Roman masters to kill Jesus, is proof of anything.

 

[Splinker]

bumped out of boredom

 

[swariffin]

I’ve been focusing on the fruitless field of politics and would like to get back to a little theology/religon. Any (more) questions, comments, debates regarding Judaism anyone?

I have very little contact with any Jewish, and my country is in favor with the muslims. So, we don’t even have a diplomatic relationship with Israel. Therefore, that explain why I lack contact with any Jews. My question is, do you believe that Moses wrote the Thorah?