Levada the proof is in the pudding

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The 12:30 p.m. Sunday Mass at St. Margaret Mary’s is the only indult Mass celebrated in the Oakland Diocese, a diocese which serves 500,000 Catholics. Within the Archdiocese of San Francisco, however, no Indult Mass is offered on a regular basis. According to archdiocesan administrators, the Archdiocese of San Francisco offers Masses in Spanish, Vietnamese, Chinese (in the dialects of Mandarin and Cantonese), Korean, Croatian, Slovenian, Arabic and Russian, but no regular indult Mass in Latin. That’s not to say that San Franciscan laity haven’t tried to obtain Archbishop Levada’s approval for one. Ann Gervasi, who has lived in the city all her life, says that she helped collect signatures to petition an indult Mass. “We sent in 85 signatures,” recounts Gervasi, “and I received a reply from Archbishop Levada that they would think about it, discuss it, and get back to me – that was in July 1998.” Gervasi has been attending the Mass in Oakland for the past five years, bringing several friends with her each week. “I got fed up with irreverent Masses in other parishes in San Francisco. I like that St. Margaret Mary’s is so reverent. It enhances my ability to pray.”

sffaith.com/ed/articles/1999/1199kw.htm

Fogny
 
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Fogny:
The 12:30 p.m. Sunday Mass at St. Margaret Mary’s is the only indult Mass celebrated in the Oakland Diocese, a diocese which serves 500,000 Catholics. Within the Archdiocese of San Francisco, however, no Indult Mass is offered on a regular basis. According to archdiocesan administrators, the Archdiocese of San Francisco offers Masses in Spanish, Vietnamese, Chinese (in the dialects of Mandarin and Cantonese), Korean, Croatian, Slovenian, Arabic and Russian, but no regular indult Mass in Latin. That’s not to say that San Franciscan laity haven’t tried to obtain Archbishop Levada’s approval for one. Ann Gervasi, who has lived in the city all her life, says that she helped collect signatures to petition an indult Mass. “We sent in 85 signatures,” recounts Gervasi, “and I received a reply from Archbishop Levada that they would think about it, discuss it, and get back to me – that was in July 1998.” Gervasi has been attending the Mass in Oakland for the past five years, bringing several friends with her each week. “I got fed up with irreverent Masses in other parishes in San Francisco. I like that St. Margaret Mary’s is so reverent. It enhances my ability to pray.”

sffaith.com/ed/articles/1999/1199kw.htm

Fogny
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And of course who could ever forget the famous pantheistic prayer posted on the San Fran diocese web page. This is just a part of it, as it has been edited and the the “Mother Earth” part is missing.

We greet you Spirit of the North.
Teach us to plant our feet securely on the earth and to see things as they really are, that the coming of your Spirit may find us standing firm in integrity. Teach us, Spirit of the North, in the solitude of winter, to wait in darkness with the sleeping earth, believing that we, like the earth, already hold within ourselves the seeds of new life.

We thank the Archdiocese of San Francisco for posting this prayer on their website
 
What is the point of this thread?

85 signatures in a diocese of 500,000 doesn’t sound too significant.
 
The point is to show that Levada was disobedient to the directives of John Paul II, and thus was NOT a good choice to be prefect for the CDF.

Tridentine Catholics have a lot to be disappointed about. We are an expendible group in his eyes. And we thought Benedict would be favorable to us.

Moreover, blind optimism and exageration of the prerogatives of the Holy Pontiff are NOT necessarily Catholic.

Usque.
 
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usqueadmortem:
Tridentine Catholics have a lot to be disappointed about. We are an expendible group in his eyes. And we thought Benedict would be favorable to us.
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There is no such thing as “Tridentine Catholics”. No “us” to merit favorable treatment. Get over yourself. You either supprt the Holy Father, or you don’t.
 
First of all, I don’t appreciate the comment “get over yourself”, would you go to a Byzantine Catholic and say “get over yourself” if he was upset that Byzantines aren’t well represented at the Vatican?
second of all, there are various rites in the Catholic Church, so there are Byzantine Catholics, Melkite Catholics, etc. and since the second vatican Council those who prefer the Tridentine Use have been called Tridentine Catholics. Those who are attached to the Anglican Use are called anglican Catholics. So it isn’t that simple.
God Bless
Usque.
 
Yes, the rejoicing that “they” (supporters of the indult Triditine Mass)have won may be quite premature. As the ruler of the entire post Vatican II RC Church, Pope Benedict must pastor ALL the Roman Catholics.
 
Yeah, on the whole we are upset at the appointment of Levada. It doesn’t bode well for us at all.

Usque.
 
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usqueadmortem:
It doesn’t bode well for us at all.
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I can see that you’re missing the point. Byzantine Rite Catholics are a recognized group in the Catholic Church. As are the Melkites. The Maronites. Etc. I think there are 20-some “churches sui iuris” that are recognized.

But there just isn’t any such thing as “Tridentine Rite Catholics” or “Traditional Catholics”. These terms have no official standing.
 
The Tridentine Use has been officially approved by the hierarchy. Thus, there are Tridentine Catholics.

Pope JPII Ecclesia Dei "However, it is necessary that all the Pastors and the other faithful have a new awareness, not only of the lawfulness but also of the richness for the Church of a diversity of charisms, traditions of spirituality and apostolate, which also constitutes the beauty of unity in variety: of that blended “harmony” which the earthly Church raises up to Heaven under the impulse of the Holy Spirit.

“To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church.”

Levada refused to do this…we are an expendible group in his eyes as far as I have read. And now he is the Prefect for the CDF.

Have you made it a point to show this respect for our rightful aspirations?

Usque.
 
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usqueadmortem:
The point is to show that Levada was disobedient to the directives of John Paul II, and thus was NOT a good choice to be prefect for the CDF.

Tridentine Catholics have a lot to be disappointed about. We are an expendible group in his eyes. And we thought Benedict would be favorable to us.

Moreover, blind optimism and exageration of the prerogatives of the Holy Pontiff are NOT necessarily Catholic.

Usque.
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The Holy Father ***asked ***that the Indult should be widely applied. It was also to be a pastoral decision (and I admit that that term gets batted around by the hierarchy in what I would term a careless way sometimes, esp. in America). I don’t think 85 people constitutes a groundswell of support for the Latin Mass in an area the size of the Archdiocese of San Francisco. We had more faculty and staff at the elementary school where I teach! I can’t see any bishop allocating resources for that small a group of people. Now, if they want to pay to fly an FFSP priest in every Sunday or get a diocesan to volunteer and can find a location, then I think the Archbishop should approve it. We have a Polish language Mass in our parish, for the whole city, once every two weeks. They PAY to fly the priest in themselves, with the Bishop’s blessing. Poles come from all over the city. They haven’t approached the Bishop about having a national parish, but I understand those are really done anymore, though some old ones are allowed to continue.
 
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usqueadmortem:
Those who are attached to the Anglican Use are called anglican Catholics. So it isn’t that simple.
God Bless
Usque.
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And those are discontinued as their priests age and die. We had an Anglican Use parish here, but we don’t any longer. After the departure of the priest, the people had a Latin Rite priest for a time, then were absorbed into regular parishes. There is no Anglican Use “Rite.” It’s a pastoral provision.
 
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Fogny:
And of course who could ever forget the famous pantheistic prayer posted on the San Fran diocese web page. This is just a part of it, as it has been edited and the the “Mother Earth” part is missing.

We greet you Spirit of the North.
Teach us to plant our feet securely on the earth and to see things as they really are, that the coming of your Spirit may find us standing firm in integrity. Teach us, Spirit of the North, in the solitude of winter, to wait in darkness with the sleeping earth, believing that we, like the earth, already hold within ourselves the seeds of new life.

We thank the Archdiocese of San Francisco for posting this prayer on their website
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It was removed fairly quickly. It might be unjust, even the sin of calumny, to attempt to connect that directly to the Archbishop. I doubt very much that he manages his diocesan website.
 
Show me any Church document which uses the term “Tridentine Catholics”. You can’t, because there isn’t any. Even “Ecclesia Dei” is very careful to refer only to individuals… not to an organized group.

I invite you to refer to this thread which enumerates all the officially defined Traditions, Rescensions, Churches, and Usages:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=4103
(starting at post #9)

If you are up in arms because your self-proclaimed “group” feels slighted, you may want to reflect upon whether the Church ever considered you to be a group at all.
 
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usqueadmortem:
The point is to show that Levada was disobedient to the directives of John Paul II, and thus was NOT a good choice to be prefect for the CDF.

Tridentine Catholics have a lot to be disappointed about. We are an expendible group in his eyes. And we thought Benedict would be favorable to us.

Moreover, blind optimism and exageration of the prerogatives of the Holy Pontiff are NOT necessarily Catholic.

Usque.
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ABp. Levada is a good man and an excellent choice.

By limiting the application of the indult, he’s likely trying to reduce the number of people like you – people who actually refer to themselves as “Tridentine Catholics.” That’s scary!
 
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rcn:
I can see that you’re missing the point. Byzantine Rite Catholics are a recognized group in the Catholic Church. As are the Melkites. The Maronites. Etc. I think there are 20-some “churches sui iuris” that are recognized.

But there just isn’t any such thing as “Tridentine Rite Catholics” or “Traditional Catholics”. These terms have no official standing.
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And it’s scary that some people refer to themselves as “Tridentine Catholics”, or that they attend a “TLM parish.”

There is no serarate church within the Latin Rite that is limited to the Tridentine Mass, thanks be to God.
 
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usqueadmortem:
The Tridentine Use has been officially approved by the hierarchy. Thus, there are Tridentine Catholics.

Pope JPII Ecclesia Dei "However, it is necessary that all the Pastors and the other faithful have a new awareness, not only of the lawfulness but also of the richness for the Church of a diversity of charisms, traditions of spirituality and apostolate, which also constitutes the beauty of unity in variety: of that blended “harmony” which the earthly Church raises up to Heaven under the impulse of the Holy Spirit.

“To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church.”

Levada refused to do this…we are an expendible group in his eyes as far as I have read. And now he is the Prefect for the CDF.

Have you made it a point to show this respect for our rightful aspirations?

Usque.
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You are speaking out of your hat. There are conditions to the Tridentine Mass indult. Perhaps no other Catholics/parishes met them in the archdiocese…
 
Pariah Pirana:
And it’s scary that some people refer to themselves as “Tridentine Catholics”, or that they attend a “TLM parish.”

There is no serarate church within the Latin Rite that is limited to the Tridentine Mass, thanks be to God.
Click to expand...
Pariah - Your banner notes that your location is “Sheol.” The Oxford English Dictionary defines “Sheol” as: “The underworld; the abode of the dead or departed spirits, conceived by the Hebrews as a subterranean region clothed in thick darkness, return from which is impossible.”

Your obnoxious tone is quite appropriate given where you apparently reside.

It is obvious you are just trying to pick a fight. Language is used to communicate ideas. The use of “traditional Catholic” or “Tridentine Catholic” need not be an “official” term used by the hierarchy in “official” documents. That being said, there isn’t a bishop or cardinal in the world who wouldn’t understand the meaning of these terms.

Today is the feast of Pentecost - try a little harder to get along, for His sake.

Benedicite,
Benedictusoblatus
 
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usqueadmortem:
The point is to show that Levada was disobedient to the directives of John Paul II, and thus was NOT a good choice to be prefect for the CDF.
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There was no disobedience. John Paul II did not require for bishops to include the Tridentine Mass in their diocese. The option to include it was merely an option that was opened by the Holy Father to the bishops of the Church. Archbishop Levada had every right to deny the Tridentine rite, and although I disagree with that action, I also disagree with the notion that he is a poor choice to be prefect of the CDF based on the fact that he licitly excercised his ecclesiastic right to deny the Tridentine mass.
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usqueadmortem:
Tridentine Catholics have a lot to be disappointed about. We are an expendible group in his eyes. And we thought Benedict would be favorable to us.
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Actually, I think it may be a victory for traditionalists in the SF Archdiocese (and hear me out before you comment). A vacancy in San Francisco requires that the pope appoint a new archbishop, and that man may very well grant parishes an indult to celebrate the Tridentine rite.

Plus, with Levada at the CDF, he cannot RESTRICT the Tridentine mass ANYWHERE because 1) he’s not a diocesan bishop, and 2) Benedict won’t let him. As prefect of the CDF, Ratzinger approved the indult to the bishops on the celebration of the Tridentine mass. It is unlikely that Benedict will allow Levada to overturn neither his own approvals prior to becoming pope, nor the approvals of John Paul II.
 
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rcn:
What is the point of this thread?

85 signatures in a diocese of 500,000 doesn’t sound too significant.
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RCN - You’re not in Sheol with Pariah are you? Your concern about the legal standing of so-called “traditional” Catholics is touching. Your evident concern for their spiritual welfare is even more so. As for the terms “traditional” or “Tridentine” Catholics, they communicate very well the idea of a Roman Catholic who is attached to the liturgical rites used prior to changes inspired by the Second Vatican Council. So, do us all a favor and quit trying to pick a fight with people about the legal nature of these terms. These people exist. They have souls. God loves them and He died for them. They are members of His Mystical Body, the Church. And, if they are doing their job as Catholics, they love you and pray for you.

Have a blessed Pentecost.
 
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