LGBT equality same as black equality

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I cannot. It’s in the print magazine and CA Magazine owns the rights to reproduction.
Darn, guess I’ll have to buy a vopy
Newsflash:

“The internet” is not the sum total of recorded human knowledge. The younger the person, the more difficult, it seems, to understand or accept that.

(1) Thousands of volumes of information – scientific, authoritative, and otherwise factual – have never been uploaded onto the World-Wide-Web. This includes much that is modern, not to mention what pre-dated the widespread use of personal computers and has not been scanned or digitalized (and may never be).

(2) “The internet” is one source, some of it verifiable and cross-referencable, some of it fabricated.

The internet is NOT equivalent to an Absolute. It is a source, the quality and accuracy of which is subject to verification.

You once claimed on CAF that if a poster can’t produce a link to something, it must not exist.
Just because I was born after the debut of the world wide web doesn’t mean I don’t understand that there is more than the internet.

Notice I said “please” not “link or it didn’t happen”.

I don’t recall ever saying that, but I do remember complaining at least in real life that I was trying to find things that wasn’t on the internet and I had to make dozens of phone calls to get a PO box address to mail to in order to get the data.
 
Grace & Peace!
I want to be clear, Mark, in order to talk about this. and I apologize if I’m being dense, but would you please ask your question in plain English?
Michelle, you’re not being dense in the least, and I appreciate the opportunity to clarify.

When a person says “same-sex attraction is objectively disordered,” what does that mean? It’s not a moral prescription or proscription–it doesn’t tell you what you should or shouldn’t do, though it certainly has moral implications and is based on certain moral principles which are, in fact, related to ideas of what you should or shouldn’t do. So what are those moral implications? How is the idea meant to impact my life and its living? I would argue that we can grasp what it means by imagining what living a life informed by it would look like.

So bearing authentic witness to the idea (“same-sex attraction is objectively disordered”) requires a certain way of living. What those requirements are, what that way of living looks like, is informed by where the idea comes from, the philosophical and theological presuppositions on which it’s based, the moral tradition of which it’s a part, etc. So when we imagine what living a life informed by this idea would look like, we’ll be imagining most truthfully when we take into consideration (to the best of our ability) all these various elements which inform the idea. And we’ll constantly return to these elements to clarify our picture, because once we get a better grasp on what the sort of life the idea inspires looks like, we’ll be in a better position to evaluate the contours of that life within the larger framework of which the idea itself is a part. The principle at work here is that the larger framework is constitutive of a form of narrative, and the idea under discussion should embody that narrative in a particular way which supports or informs it (the narrative).

This kind of narrative should lead us (in part at least) to an apprehension of what a morally good life looks like, and the idea under discussion should point us in that direction. We should be able to recognize the contours and features of virtue in the life we imagine based on this idea. If we discover that the life we’ve imagined is morally repugnant or unreasonable in some way (which is to say, by analogy, that it does not fit within the narrative), then either we’ve imagined incorrectly, or there is something wrong with our understanding of the narrative or the idea.

Our opinion of the narrative is immaterial. Whether or not we agree with the idea under discussion is irrelevant. The narrative articulates values which the particular idea should mirror. The narrative leads us to understand what a virtuous life looks like which the particular idea should help us realize.

So that’s more or less what I meant–a way of evaluating an idea which takes the idea and the context in which it’s found seriously not in order to dismiss it (!) but in order to understand it. A lot of my early posts on this topic (of homosexuality) betray a real foolhardy confidence in my own evaluation of my knowledge of the Roman Catholic teaching surrounding it. As you can imagine, I find some of those posts rather embarrassing and cavalier in their conclusions. I’ve since learned that if I was going to understand the RCC teaching and it’s practical implications, I’d have to try to do so on the teaching’s own terms, not mine. I may disagree with it when all is said and done, but at least I will understand it, respect it, and know precisely why and how I disagree. In the meantime, my opinion of one thing or another is of little value, but what and how I am thinking about the topic will, maybe one day, be worth something.

(For a bit of background, let me say that I’m a fan of Hauerwas’ work, and one of the things he talks about as key to how we live our lives is a cultural narrative which articulates a series of values to which we are expected to bear witness if we desire to live authentic/truthful lives informed by the narrative. The shape of the narrative will necessarily inform or determine how we understand our place in our community, our nation, how we formulate morality and make moral choices etc. For Hauerwas, the Gospel is the narrative which forms the Christian community–Scripture is a record of that unfolding narrative. Recalling the stories of our narrative is a moral act and a political act because such recall puts us in touch with the deepest values of our community and serves to sustain and perpetuate the community. That recall is not always flawless, however–how we tell a story affects how we hear it, which accounts, in part, for the many divisions within the larger global Christian community.)
Did you read my article in this month’s issue of Catholic Answers Magazine?
No, but I wanted to very much. I saw the thread you started about it some time ago and wanted to read what you had written so we could discuss (and I do mean discuss, not argue or debate!). I tried looking for it, but I couldn’t find it. Like Dakota, I thought it was an online resource, but I gather from the substance of Elizabeth’s (strangely hostile) post on the topic that it isn’t. Do you know where I can get a copy of the magazine?

Thanks, Michelle.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

Michelle, you’re not being dense in the least, and I appreciate the opportunity to clarify.

When a person says “same-sex attraction is objectively disordered,” what does that mean? It’s not a moral prescription or proscription–it doesn’t tell you what you should or shouldn’t do, though it certainly has moral implications and is based on certain moral principles which are, in fact, related to ideas of what you should or shouldn’t do. So what are those moral implications? How is the idea meant to impact my life and its living? I would argue that we can grasp what it means by imagining what living a life informed by it would look like.

So bearing authentic witness to the idea (“same-sex attraction is objectively disordered”) requires a certain way of living. What those requirements are, what that way of living looks like, is informed by where the idea comes from, the philosophical and theological presuppositions on which it’s based, the moral tradition of which it’s a part, etc. So when we imagine what living a life informed by this idea would look like, we’ll be imagining most truthfully when we take into consideration (to the best of our ability) all these various elements which inform the idea. And we’ll constantly return to these elements to clarify our picture, because once we get a better grasp on what the sort of life the idea inspires looks like, we’ll be in a better position to evaluate the contours of that life within the larger framework of which the idea itself is a part. The principle at work here is that the larger framework is constitutive of a form of narrative, and the idea under discussion should embody that narrative in a particular way which supports or informs it (the narrative).

snip

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
I think we should use what the catechism says
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
An important point to nice is that “which is objectively disordered” is a parenthetical element. Since it is a parenthetical element and parenthetical elements are not necessary for the meaning of the sentence as they are only “flavouring”, it can in fact be removed and read as “This inclination constitutes for most of them a trial.” After we extract that we also have the statement that “This inclination is objectively disordered”. “This inclination is…” “…an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex” meaning “[A]n exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex” “…is objectively disordered.” It is objectively disordered this inclination (an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex) is desires things that “…are intrinsically disordered” because “They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity.” I would like to note that in the last sentence from that quote that it uses the conjunction “and” which is indicative of them not being present together.

Do you affirm that an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex is objectively disordered because what it desires is contrary to the natural law, closes the sexual act to the gift of life, and does not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity?
 
Grace & Peace!
I think we should use what the catechism says
I certainly think starting with the catechism will be important.
An important point to nice is that “which is objectively disordered” is a parenthetical element. Since it is a parenthetical element and parenthetical elements are not necessary for the meaning of the sentence as they are only “flavouring”, it can in fact be removed and read as “This inclination constitutes for most of them a trial.”
It does not appear as if the phrase actually can be removed. It may be in a subordinate clause, but it’s not optional–in fact, it’s definitive. Here’s why: the catechism states that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. Intrinsically disordered means that there is no good in them–they are fundamentally wrong in themselves and the catechism affirms that nothing can alter that wrongness (as well as giving some reasons why they’re so wrong). Any inclination to commit a homosexual act is an inclination to disorder, i.e., the object of the inclination is disordered, therefore the inclination is objectively disordered. “Intrinsic” refers to the very nature of a thing, “objective” refers to something which is the object of something else. The understanding of homosexuality as objectively disordered is a consequence of the understanding that homosexuality is oriented to something that is intrinsically disordered.
Do you affirm that an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex is objectively disordered because what it desires is contrary to the natural law, closes the sexual act to the gift of life, and does not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity?
Based on what the catechism says, it would be difficult to definitively affirm this statement. Because even though the first sentence of Para 2357 is a bit fuzzy (it can easily be read as the self-reflexive “Homosexuality refers to relations that homosexuals have,” and leads us to ask “Can people who are not homosexuals have homosexual relations?” “If homosexuals are having opposite-sex relations, are they still engaged in homosexuality given that they’re still homosexuals?”), the drift of Para 2357 is that the relations to which it refers are homosexual acts, which we are given to understand are genital sexual acts between people of the same sex who are same-sex attracted (though, granted, no explicit definition of “relations” or “homosexual acts” is actually given–context, however, would suggest a sexual act and traditional catholic exegesis would suggest that we limit the interpretation of a thing to its most narrowly specific meaning within a given context).

So based on that, one can affirm that having an inclination to commit a homosexual sexual act (which act would be contrary to natural law, closed to life etc.) is an objectively disordered inclination, but in order to affirm your statement, we must first agree that being same-sex attracted is necessarily and always synonymous with an inclination to commit or to desire to commit a homosexual sexual act. I don’t know that I can agree with that equivalence. I’m also not sure that the catechism would have us agree to it, and perhaps that’s a function of some of the fuzziness of 2357–but I think that clearing this up in a way consistent with the Gospel will help us better imagine an authentic way of life for someone who is same-sex attracted.

How do we translate all of this into a form of life characterized by chastity and inner-freedom (para 2359)? What does that form of life look like?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

I certainly think starting with the catechism will be important.

It does not appear as if the phrase actually can be removed. It may be in a subordinate clause, but it’s not optional–in fact, it’s definitive. Here’s why: the catechism states that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. Intrinsically disordered means that there is no good in them–they are fundamentally wrong in themselves and the catechism affirms that nothing can alter that wrongness (as well as giving some reasons why they’re so wrong). Any inclination to commit a homosexual act is an inclination to disorder, i.e., the object of the inclination is disordered, therefore the inclination is objectively disordered. “Intrinsic” refers to the very nature of a thing, “objective” refers to something which is the object of something else. The understanding of homosexuality as objectively disordered is a consequence of the understanding that homosexuality is oriented to something that is intrinsically disordered.

Based on what the catechism says, it would be difficult to definitively affirm this statement. Because even though the first sentence of Para 2357 is a bit fuzzy (it can easily be read as the self-reflexive “Homosexuality refers to relations that homosexuals have,” and leads us to ask “Can people who are not homosexuals have homosexual relations?” “If homosexuals are having opposite-sex relations, are they still engaged in homosexuality given that they’re still homosexuals?”), the drift of Para 2357 is that the relations to which it refers are homosexual acts, which we are given to understand are genital sexual acts between people of the same sex who are same-sex attracted (though, granted, no explicit definition of “relations” or “homosexual acts” is actually given–context, however, would suggest a sexual act and traditional catholic exegesis would suggest that we limit the interpretation of a thing to its most narrowly specific meaning within a given context).

So based on that, one can affirm that having an inclination to commit a homosexual sexual act (which act would be contrary to natural law, closed to life etc.) is an objectively disordered inclination, but in order to affirm your statement, we must first agree that being same-sex attracted is necessarily and always synonymous with an inclination to commit a homosexual sexual act. I don’t know that I can agree with that equivalence. I’m also not sure that the catechism would have us agree to it, but perhaps that’s a function of some of the fuzziness of 2357.

The question is–how do we translate all of this into a form of life characterized by chastity and inner-freedom (para 2359)? What does that form of life look like?
Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Mark,

This is a good question for another thread. You may choose to start one. This question is not relevant to this thread. The answer would come from…

A homosexual that ascribes to the teachings of the Catechism can explain what that life is like. This is the person that can tell you what this form of life looks like. A life with intimate, bond-creating, household strengthening, relationship-building grace and attachment to the creator filled with grace.

A homosexual that acknowledges the teaching of the Catechism and lives with a man, performs sexual acts of any kind including sodomy would not be able to explain what that life is like and is absent intimacy, bond-creating, house-hold strengthening, relationship-building and attachment to the creator filled with grace. This person does not understand the life of Chastity and true Freedom, Veritatis Splendor.
 
Grace & Peace!
This is a good question for another thread. You may choose to start one. This question is not relevant to this thread.
You may be right.
The answer would come from…

A homosexual that ascribes to the teachings of the Catechism can explain what that life is like. This is the person that can tell you what this form of life looks like. A life with intimate, bond-creating, household strengthening, relationship-building grace and attachment to the creator filled with grace.

A homosexual that acknowledges the teaching of the Catechism and lives with a man, performs sexual acts of any kind including sodomy would not be able to explain what that life is like and is absent intimacy, bond-creating, house-hold strengthening, relationship-building and attachment to the creator filled with grace. This person does not understand the life of Chastity and true Freedom, Veritatis Splendor.
Who knows? You shouldn’t knock a person’s capacity to imagine what virtue may look like, even if you believe the life they’re living is not particularly virtuous.

Anyway, before we can truly discover an answer, it’s probably best not to assume that we already know it. The first sort of “homosexual” may be able to articulate very well the vision of life they aspire to lead and may, indeed, be leading–but if that vision is based on an understanding of the teaching that is overly severe or overly lax or overly dependent on the sort of life other well-meaning people think they should be leading, or if it is a vision of life that must avoid examination in order to be lived…then perhaps it may not be best to start with their conclusions.

I’m put in mind of something Marshall McLuhan said, “We don’t know who discovered water, but we know it wasn’t the fish.”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

You may be right.

Who knows? You shouldn’t knock a person’s capacity to imagine what virtue may look like, even if you believe the life they’re living is not particularly virtuous.

Anyway, before we can truly discover an answer, it’s probably best not to assume that we already know it. The first sort of “homosexual” may be able to articulate very well the vision of life they aspire to lead and may, indeed, be leading–but if that vision is based on an understanding of the teaching that is overly severe or overly lax or overly dependent on the sort of life other well-meaning people think they should be leading, or if it is a vision of life that must avoid examination in order to be lived…then perhaps it may not be best to start with their conclusions.

I’m put in mind of something Marshall McLuhan said, “We don’t know who discovered water, but we know it wasn’t the fish.”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Mark,

The Homosexual that models the behavior and experiences the virtue is the person that knows.

You recall you brought up e-prime, one element of NLP. You should look into the writings of Robert Dilts who wrote “Strategies of Genius”. You recall that Richard Bandler and John Grinder modeled Virginia Satir, Fritz Perl and Milton Erickson. NLP is all about modeling the behavior you wish…

nlp-mentor.com/whatisnlp/nlp-modeling

NLP Modeling to discover the patterns of excellence
NLP Modeling is the process of recreating excellence. We can model any human behavior by mastering the beliefs, the physiology and the specific thought processes (that is the strategies) that underlie the skill or behavior.
It is about achieving an outcome by studying how someone else goes about it.
It isn’t about someone else articulating something, it is about you wanting to be that which you want to become. If you want the experience of a person that has same sex attraction, that has chosen the life of chastity and virtue and grace and if you have same sex attraction then the best you can do is seek to model their behavior.

This is something that anyone can do and why we have Saints as models of behavior. You have the ability to choose to model any behavior you choose to aspire to.

In the end the modeling is modeling of Christ…no articulation necessary…👍
 
Grace & Peace!

On the contrary, I don’t dismiss the option at all–I want to engage with it, understand it, and see if it actually works as an understanding by which one can live one’s life.

The question is this: What does a narrative of same-sex attraction as objective disorder look like, and what is the shape of a life led in witness to this narrative? Agree or disagree–it doesn’t matter. Opinions are immaterial. What matters is how you engage, how you think about the question. The quality of thought is what matters. And you can only engage the question if you take it seriously.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
The proper course is coming to terms with it, and not letting it deflect us from the right course. At least, it means rejecting any pretense that it is not a disability.
 
Grace & Peace!

I certainly think starting with the catechism will be important.

It does not appear as if the phrase actually can be removed. It may be in a subordinate clause, but it’s not optional–in fact, it’s definitive. Here’s why: the catechism states that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. Intrinsically disordered means that there is no good in them–they are fundamentally wrong in themselves and the catechism affirms that nothing can alter that wrongness (as well as giving some reasons why they’re so wrong). Any inclination to commit a homosexual act is an inclination to disorder, i.e., the object of the inclination is disordered, therefore the inclination is objectively disordered. “Intrinsic” refers to the very nature of a thing, “objective” refers to something which is the object of something else. The understanding of homosexuality as objectively disordered is a consequence of the understanding that homosexuality is oriented to something that is intrinsically disordered.

Based on what the catechism says, it would be difficult to definitively affirm this statement. Because even though the first sentence of Para 2357 is a bit fuzzy (it can easily be read as the self-reflexive “Homosexuality refers to relations that homosexuals have,” and leads us to ask “Can people who are not homosexuals have homosexual relations?” “If homosexuals are having opposite-sex relations, are they still engaged in homosexuality given that they’re still homosexuals?”), the drift of Para 2357 is that the relations to which it refers are homosexual acts, which we are given to understand are genital sexual acts between people of the same sex who are same-sex attracted (though, granted, no explicit definition of “relations” or “homosexual acts” is actually given–context, however, would suggest a sexual act and traditional catholic exegesis would suggest that we limit the interpretation of a thing to its most narrowly specific meaning within a given context).

So based on that, one can affirm that having an inclination to commit a homosexual sexual act (which act would be contrary to natural law, closed to life etc.) is an objectively disordered inclination, but in order to affirm your statement, we must first agree that being same-sex attracted is necessarily and always synonymous with an inclination to commit or to desire to commit a homosexual sexual act. I don’t know that I can agree with that equivalence. I’m also not sure that the catechism would have us agree to it, and perhaps that’s a function of some of the fuzziness of 2357–but I think that clearing this up in a way consistent with the Gospel will help us better imagine an authentic way of life for someone who is same-sex attracted.

How do we translate all of this into a form of life characterized by chastity and inner-freedom (para 2359)? What does that form of life look like?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
It’s not a subordinate clause, it is a parenthetical element. I did also say “After we extract that we also have the statement that ‘This inclination is objectively disordered’.” If you go through the Latin and understand it in the context of the Church we can see that the homosexual inclination is considered disordered insofar as it is the (concupiscent) desire for homosexual acts.

If you go by the Latin you can easily affirm the statement (the Latin is the authoritative version).

You’ll have to define “same-sex attracted” for me, I’m not quite sure how you are using it.

I don’t actually know, I just wanted to know what you believe.
Mark,

This is a good question for another thread. You may choose to start one. This question is not relevant to this thread. The answer would come from…

**A homosexual that ascribes to the teachings of the Catechism can explain what that life is like. This is the person that can tell you what this form of life looks like. A life with intimate, bond-creating, household strengthening, relationship-building grace and attachment to the creator filled with grace. **

A homosexual that acknowledges the teaching of the Catechism and lives with a man, performs sexual acts of any kind including sodomy would not be able to explain what that life is like and is absent intimacy, bond-creating, house-hold strengthening, relationship-building and attachment to the creator filled with grace. This person does not understand the life of Chastity and true Freedom, Veritatis Splendor.
Could you please show me a homosexual who is happy following the Catechism? I was nearly mowed in a hit and run today and was annoyed that I only got hit in the side with the side mirror instead of being killed.
 
Notice I said “please” not “link or it didn’t happen”.
I don’t recall ever saying that,
You in fact said it quite explicitly about a year ago, as I recall, on CAF. You even seemed to use some popular phrase to that effect.

Everybody born after the www. needs to become acquainted with the vast stores of knowledge which exceed what is currently available in electronic form.

Separately, of course, a link in itself does not convey authority or truth, merely a source. The source is only as good as the insight and/or expertise behind the source. You may understand this, but plenty of young people do not. For them, existence, authority, and legitimacy are defined by a presence on the internet.

Sad.
 
Could you please show me a homosexual who is happy following the Catechism? I was nearly mowed in a hit and run today and was annoyed that I only got hit in the side with the side mirror instead of being killed.
Dakota, I’m sorry that you continue to feel such sorrow. I continue to keep you in my prayers.

Mark, I follow the Catechism, I fully accept the CCC’s teachings in this matter, and I’m happy, well-adjusted, and have a very full life. I have read several other posters on CAF who have said similar things. There was a man on Catholic Answers Radio last Friday who says the same thing. The podcast of that show is available.

I fully admit and embrace that I have had a conversion experience with the Grace of God.

I understand the teaching to be:
  1. feeling a sexual attraction or excitement to or for a person of the same-sex is not ordered towards procreation
  2. the feelings or attractions in #1 are not sinful in and of themselves, but they are disordered by virtue of not being ordered towards procreation
  3. acting on those feelings of sexual attraction or excitement is a sin. This would include dwelling on the thoughts, fantasizing, etc.
  4. anything that leads to an increase in the feeling of excitement or arousal, while perhaps not a sin, is, at minimum, certainly a near occasion of sin.
  5. love, fondness, affection etc are beautiful, God-given feelings which should not be discouraged, therefore, close friendships, bonds, and familial ties (whether biological or not) should be encouraged and sought
That’s pretty much how my life looks. I have 3 exceptionally close female friends, 2 very close male friends, and an untold number of professional and church friends and acquaintances. I belong to two parishes and teach PSR to 10-11 year olds in one and adult RCIA in the other. I bowl one night a week in one of the parish’s bowling league. I’m working on my MA in Theology and even before entering that program, I spent many hours reading the old writings of the Saints, Fathers, and great thinkers of the Church (The Sinner’s Guide by Louis de Grenada was instrumental in my formation). I have two beautiful godsons that I love spending time with.

quite frankly, i don’t know how my life could be more full of love and affection and I thank God every day for my life.
 
It’s not a subordinate clause, it is a parenthetical element. I did also say “After we extract that we also have the statement that ‘This inclination is objectively disordered’.” If you go through the Latin and understand it in the context of the Church we can see that the homosexual inclination is considered disordered insofar as it is the (concupiscent) desire for homosexual acts.

If you go by the Latin you can easily affirm the statement (the Latin is the authoritative version).

You’ll have to define “same-sex attracted” for me, I’m not quite sure how you are using it.

I don’t actually know, I just wanted to know what you believe.

Could you please show me a homosexual who is happy following the Catechism? I was nearly mowed in a hit and run today and was annoyed that I only got hit in the side with the side mirror instead of being killed.
Dakota,

I am sure that they exist. I am also sure that the alternative can be understood. Mark asks about this as well. What is known has been shared by this writer, Posted in

With Gay Marriage being allowed will the Catholic Church Change, post 96

“The Truth About the Homosexual Rights Movement”
By Ronald G. Lee
New Oxford Review
February 2006
virtueonline.org/portal/m…p?storyid=3650
“The books were a front for the porn.”
As you can see, it is somewhat dated, but it is still available.

Knowing both sides of the coin, where is true happiness found?
 
Regardless of propaganda to the contrary, an individuals sexual orientation is selective. No one is born having sexual desires for their own sex. As one grows up, ones sexual orientation is conditioned by many external as well as internal factors. These can be controlled by the individual. The idea that one is “born that way” is just a cop out to avoid personal responsibility for ones aberrant sexual behavior.
An individual has no control over which race they are born into.
This is similar to an argument I would make, viz. that while a person has no choice over their race, they can choose which gender to be sexually involved with- they can also choose chastity and abstention.

The comparison between racial/ethnic origin and homosexuality is prima facie absurd.
 
Grace & Peace!
It’s not a subordinate clause, it is a parenthetical element. I did also say “After we extract that we also have the statement that ‘This inclination is objectively disordered’.”
I guess I was not following your textual analysis. Apologies.
You’ll have to define “same-sex attracted” for me, I’m not quite sure how you are using it.
Being attracted to someone of the same sex. I understand this attraction to be on account of and for the sake of the perception of goodness, beauty and truth in the person to whom one is attracted and not further ordered to any homosexual sexual act. You would not say that a man who is attracted to the woman he is dating is actually entertaining a desire to fornicate (because the woman is not his wife) and is therefore in a near occasion of sin. Why then would you say that a man attracted to another man is really desiring sin?
Could you please show me a homosexual who is happy following the Catechism? I was nearly mowed in a hit and run today and was annoyed that I only got hit in the side with the side mirror instead of being killed.
This is heartbreaking.

I understand that life is full of suffering and that suffering can have salutary effects, but I suppose one of the reasons why I’m asking these questions and interested in the shape of the life demanded by those paragraphs you quoted above is that I cannot believe that anyone (let alone God) would actively will someone to be in such abject pain or would simply accept such pain as a normative demand on any portion of the population. That is monstrous. I must believe, therefore, not so much that the teaching is necessarily wrong (I’m not a Roman Catholic, so I have no real skin in that game), but that how it is received and therefore how it is taught or promulgated by others both within and without the Roman Catholic Church may be wrong. I cannot believe that such pain is necessary.

You are in my prayers.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!
I understand the teaching to be:
  1. feeling a sexual attraction or excitement to or for a person of the same-sex is not ordered towards procreation
This is where the issue lies: is an attraction to another person necessarily ordered toward a sexual act. I don’t see that the catechism makes the connection between attraction to a person and inclination to a sexual act necessary. As I just wrote to Dakota, I understand such an attraction “to be on account of and for the sake of the perception of goodness, beauty and truth in the person to whom one is attracted and not further ordered to any homosexual sexual act.” You believe otherwise based on your understanding of the teaching. Could you show me, in the teaching, why?

Your other points logically follow from this first one and they certainly make sense as forming a coherent and reasonable whole.

Moreover, I will not question whether or not you are happy–you say you are and I accept it!

The questions I’m led to ask, however, mostly based on your 5 points is this: Can you fall in love with someone to whom you’re attracted without thinking that your feelings of love are an expression of a disorder or an invitation to sin or could not actually be feelings of love because they must come from a disordered place? Can you celebrate or enjoy being in love?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

I guess I was not following your textual analysis. Apologies.

Being attracted to someone of the same sex. I understand this attraction to be on account of and for the sake of the perception of goodness, beauty and truth in the person to whom one is attracted and not further ordered to any homosexual sexual act. You would not say that a man who is attracted to the woman he is dating is actually entertaining a desire to fornicate (because the woman is not his wife) and is therefore in a near occasion of sin. Why then would you say that a man attracted to another man is really desiring sin?

This is heartbreaking.

I understand that life is full of suffering and that suffering can have salutary effects, but I suppose one of the reasons why I’m asking these questions and interested in the shape of the life demanded by those paragraphs you quoted above is that I cannot believe that anyone (let alone God) would actively will someone to be in such abject pain or would simply accept such pain as a normative demand on any portion of the population. That is monstrous. I must believe, therefore, not so much that the teaching is necessarily wrong (I’m not a Roman Catholic, so I have no real skin in that game), but that how it is received and therefore how it is taught or promulgated by others both within and without the Roman Catholic Church may be wrong. I cannot believe that such pain is necessary.

You are in my prayers.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Mark,

Then, are you saying that Homosexuals are better served by not being in the OHCAC and following whatever feels good and right serves a better purpose?
 
Grace & Peace!
The Homosexual that models the behavior and experiences the virtue is the person that knows.
Can you explain to me, in positive terms, what that behavior is? Or here’s something that I’m thinking of opening a thread about: Is there any positive behavior (i.e., something you actively do as opposed to something you should avoid) that a same-sex attracted person can model which is a positive reflection of their same-sex attraction?
You recall you brought up e-prime, one element of NLP.
I understand you are a devotee of NLP and, presumably, have found some good in it. That’s fine. It looks like scientology and pseudo-science to me. My Christian life will not be informed by it any more than it will be informed by angel therapy or past-life regression, which are other widely discredited therapeutic practices.
In the end the modeling is modeling of Christ…no articulation necessary…👍
Indeed, our model is Christ. Not because of NLP, but because, in part, we are the Body of Christ and he is our Head.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!
Mark,

Then, are you saying that Homosexuals are better served by not being in the OHCAC and following whatever feels good and right serves a better purpose?
I’m not saying that at all. Let me repeat what I said: " I must believe, therefore, not so much that the teaching is necessarily wrong (I’m not a Roman Catholic, so I have no real skin in that game), but that how it is received and therefore how it is taught or promulgated by others both within and without the Roman Catholic Church may be wrong."

If you can demonstrate (and not merely assert) that God desires people in a certain population to be in such pain and that it is necessary for his church to assist people to be in such pain, then I will happily quit these forums, never to look back. In other words, I have yet to be shown (and subsequently do not believe) that God desires it or that his church in any of its forms desires it–therefore, the problem is in how the teaching is received, not necessarily in what the teaching is actually trying to say.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

I’m not saying that at all. Let me repeat what I said: " I must believe, therefore, not so much that the teaching is necessarily wrong (I’m not a Roman Catholic, so I have no real skin in that game), but that how it is received and therefore how it is taught or promulgated by others both within and without the Roman Catholic Church may be wrong."

If you can demonstrate (and not merely assert) that God desires people in a certain population to be in such pain and that it is necessary for his church to assist people to be in such pain, then I will happily quit these forums, never to look back. In other words, I have yet to be shown (and subsequently do not believe) that God desires it or that his church in any of its forms desires it–therefore, the problem is in how the teaching is received, not necessarily in what the teaching is actually trying to say.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Mark,

You, based on what you believe and percieve will never agree that the Catholic Church is the Church of the living God. All children of God, baptized in the trinitarian formula are called to a life of obedience and denial of self. If this causes suffering then that is what it is. If giving up a relationship with a man and you are a man and that life is less physically joyful to you then that is what it is.

The teaching of the Church is not focused on homosexuality however in this context it is only one sin among many that humanity is called to renounce. Some enjoy fornication, some enjoy drugs, some enjoy gluttony, some enjoy a myriad of sins…but to enjoy eternal life we are asked to renounce sin…

If you want to enjoy eternal life as provided, by what is believed to be the Revelation of God, through the Church, through which the manifold wisdom of God is known…then renounce your sin…

If you choose to continue to sin and choose what you want then stay where you are and accept your life as it is denouncing that what it is the OHCAC has offers you nothing but misery…for what does it prosper a man to gain his life only to lose it?

Renouncing sin applies to me, you, and everyone else exposed to what is believed to be the truth. If you do not believe it is the truth then you are left to your own devices to rationalize and model your own principle for behavior that you then are accountable for because you have no authority but yourself and your reason.
 
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