LGBT equality same as black equality

[majorem]

I am relatively new to this site…and I must say I am perplexed as to the ongoing dialogue regarding those who chose to live an openly homosexual lifestyle…or, any other deviant sexual behavior…all of the back and forth…my respectful suggestion is for those on the site who stand behind the homosexual (LGBT) agenda …if you can’t except the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding this matter why not go elsewhere to worship…truly I mean no insult here…there are plenty of Protestant Churches that welcome people who chose to live openly homosexual lifestyles…and…unfortuantely…I am sure if you look closely enough you might even find a so called Catholic Parish (the SJ in Manhattan perhaps) that might welcome you…but…trying to convince me, or anyone else on this site that it’s all o.k…and they make great parents…and where is the compassion and etc etc…is ludricous at best…it’s my understanding of our faith that the Church, doesn’t condemn ANYONE for their feelings…just teaches against the behavior…I have , close friends that I truly love and respect that have same sex attraction but live chaste lives…are celebant…as all single people should…outside the bounds of Holy Matrimony which I believe the Church/Catechism teaches is between one man and one woman…so, why doesn’t someone who monitors this site put an end to the philosophical arguments…Please…Correct me if I’m wrong…but being Catholic does not mean being Politically correct…Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

 

[Seeker1961]

I am relatively new to this site…and I must say I am perplexed as to the ongoing dialogue regarding those who chose to live an openly homosexual lifestyle…or, any other deviant sexual behavior…all of the back and forth…my respectful suggestion is for those on the site who stand behind the homosexual (LGBT) agenda …if you can’t except the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding this matter why not go elsewhere to worship…truly I mean no insult here…there are plenty of Protestant Churches that welcome people who chose to live openly homosexual lifestyles…and…unfortuantely…I am sure if you look closely enough you might even find a so called Catholic Parish (the SJ in Manhattan perhaps) that might welcome you…but…trying to convince me, or anyone else on this site that it’s all o.k…and they make great parents…and where is the compassion and etc etc…is ludricous at best…it’s my understanding of our faith that the Church, doesn’t condemn ANYONE for their feelings…just teaches against the behavior…I have , close friends that I truly love and respect that have same sex attraction but live chaste lives…are celebant…as all single people should…outside the bounds of Holy Matrimony which I believe the Church/Catechism teaches is between one man and one woman…so, why doesn’t someone who monitors this site put an end to the philosophical arguments…Please…Correct me if I’m wrong…but being Catholic does not mean being Politically correct…Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

Wanting civil law to remain secular does NOT mean that people do not personally adhere to or accept the teachings of the Church.

In my opinion once you open the door to allowing religious beliefs of any one faith to be the foundational basis for any secular law, you’re heading for trouble-especially in a country that has elections.

 

[rorydaman]

If you saw a blind person about to walk off the side of a cliff, would you not reach out to try and grab that person even if it meant using force? What about a depressed teen contemplating suicide… would you say to that young person that it’s their “choice” to kill themselves? Remember, faith without works is dead. It’s not enough for us to simply want those around us to go to heaven, if we sit around and allow others to commit grave sin when we have the ability to act, then we rightfully share in that guilt and will be judged accordingly.

If a person truly understands and accepts the Church’s teachings that sodomy is gravely dangerous to a person’s soul in every possible circumstance, then how could that person possibly go on to support any law that would enable sodomy without being of the same mindset as Satan himself? For a faithful Catholic, hell is never a “choice” and that applies to our neighbour just as much as it applies to ourselves!

Also, remember that God gives us “free will”, he doesn’t necessarly give us “freedom of action”… our society should think along these same lines with regards to issues of intrinsic evil.

Well if you could make a coherent argument that Catholicism is the right religion that convinced the majority of intelligent people then you would have a point. As it stands you have no rational argument that would convince most non Catholics that Catholicism is the truth so you are just going to be construed as annoying and bigoted.

Imagine if every time you went to church someone was shouting at you that going to Catholic Church is going to send you right to hell. There are many people that believe this. Would you think it was charitable of them to yell at you for going to Catholic Church? You could say “well I know for a fact that going to Catholic Church won’t send me to hell” but I am sure that many homosexuals think the same thing about homosexual acts.

 

[Seeker1961]

Well if you could make a coherent argument that Catholicism is the right religion that convinced the majority of intelligent people then you would have a point. As it stands you have no rational argument that would convince most non Catholics that Catholicism is the truth so you are just going to be construed as annoying and bigoted.

Imagine if every time you went to church someone was shouting at you that going to Catholic Church is going to send you right to hell. There are many people that believe this. Would you think it was charitable of them to yell at you for going to Catholic Church? You could say “well I know for a fact that going to Catholic Church won’t send me to hell” but I am sure that many homosexuals think the same thing about homosexual acts.

And people who go to other churches also “know” that their church is the only way to Heaven…so what about them?

You can’t legislate people’s way to salvation in the United States.

 

[rorydaman]

Exactly.A broken chair is still a chair. Marriage is two people of the opposite sex, because it is about creating and raising children. If it was about any other ‘aspect,’ society could care less and we would not have marriage at all.

Your view that marriage is only about creating and raising kids is really lacking. There is a lot more to marriage than creating and raising children.

Here is a list that fits your criteria…do you support these marriages: polygamy, brother and sister, mother and son, father and daughter, 50 year old man and 10 year old girl, etc. All of these should be legal because they are not “sterile by design,” right?

 

[rorydaman]

I am relatively new to this site…and I must say I am perplexed as to the ongoing dialogue regarding those who chose to live an openly homosexual lifestyle…or, any other deviant sexual behavior…all of the back and forth…my respectful suggestion is for those on the site who stand behind the homosexual (LGBT) agenda …if you can’t except the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding this matter why not go elsewhere to worship…truly I mean no insult here…there are plenty of Protestant Churches that welcome people who chose to live openly homosexual lifestyles…and…unfortuantely…I am sure if you look closely enough you might even find a so called Catholic Parish (the SJ in Manhattan perhaps) that might welcome you…but…trying to convince me, or anyone else on this site that it’s all o.k…and they make great parents…and where is the compassion and etc etc…is ludricous at best…it’s my understanding of our faith that the Church, doesn’t condemn ANYONE for their feelings…just teaches against the behavior…I have , close friends that I truly love and respect that have same sex attraction but live chaste lives…are celebant…as all single people should…outside the bounds of Holy Matrimony which I believe the Church/Catechism teaches is between one man and one woman…so, why doesn’t someone who monitors this site put an end to the philosophical arguments…Please…Correct me if I’m wrong…but being Catholic does not mean being Politically correct…Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

What is the point of having a forum if there is no room for debate?

 

[Stephen168]

Your view that marriage is only about creating and raising kids is really lacking. There is a lot more to marriage than creating and raising children.

Here is a list that fits your criteria…do you support these marriages: polygamy, brother and sister, mother and son, father and daughter, 50 year old man and 10 year old girl, etc. All of these should be legal because they are not “sterile by design,” right?

See post #385

 

[MidnightSun12]

So would you also advocate for us to pass laws stating that all citizens must Confess their sins to a Priest at least once a year, attend Mass during the Easter season and believe in all the truths the Holy Catholic Church teaches? After all, not doing those things puts a person’s soul in a state of mortal sin and are also a serious threat to their salvation-correct?

Good point! I have wondered about this one myself from time to time. Let’s take a closer look at the Canon law’s requirement for a yearly confession:

As per Canon 989:

After having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.

The requirement for a yearly confession applies to the christian faithful. Attending mass, abstaining from meat, going to confession etc… are matters of Church discipline that apply to those who are within the Church, not a violation of natural law which applies to all human beings regardless of religion. Furthermore, the Church doesn’t recognize that those outside the Church are necessarly in a state of mortal sin, either… Only those that have felt the inner pull of conversion and have chosen to remain outside the Church in spite of this calling… As a result, no human law could ever licitly “force” somebody to convert to Catholicism.

Of course, a person’s chance for salvation are best if they are inside the Church, and we all have to work harder then ever to help evangelize!

rorydaman:

Well if you could make a coherent argument that Catholicism is the right religion that convinced the majority of intelligent people then you would have a point. As it stands you have no rational argument that would convince most non Catholics that Catholicism is the truth so you are just going to be construed as annoying and bigoted.

Imagine if every time you went to church someone was shouting at you that going to Catholic Church is going to send you right to hell. There are many people that believe this. Would you think it was charitable of them to yell at you for going to Catholic Church? You could say “well I know for a fact that going to Catholic Church won’t send me to hell” but I am sure that many homosexuals think the same thing about homosexual acts.

I believe that most people know deep down that sodomy is wrong. If it was truly a virtuous act then why do the activists have to hide behind statements about “equal rights” and two people “loving” each other in order to sway public opinion? Why not just come out and say that sex between two men is natural and describe the acts in detail in order to sway public opinion to their side by eliminating ignorance about homosexual sex?

It’s the same with abortion. Why put a tiny little sign saying “Women’s health options” on the back of an abortion clinic? If there’s truly nothing wrong with abortion, why not use the word itself and put a huge sign on the front of the clinic showing the tools used by the doctor and the process of slicing the baby into pieces in order to show people driving by that abortion really isn’t as bad as all those “oppressive” Catholics make it sound??

If something needs to hide in the dark and shroud itself behind benign words in order to be accepted then that’s a huge clue that it’s evil. Even more so when criticism of the acts are met with hostility and attempts at censorship as we see so often in the pro-sodomy and pro-abortion media (why get angry if there’s a logical, over-powering reason for why it’s OK?)

That’s not the case with the Catholic Church, Her teachings are absolutely black and white and out there for everyone to see. Never once in the Church’s 2000 year history has Her moral theory needed to be changed or in any way contradicted itself (as per Christ’s promise that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Catholic Church). And I would never see a protestant accusing me of going to hell as being a reason to get offended! I would see this as a fantastic opportunity to help save a soul by asking what exactly this person disagree’s with about Church teaching and helping to clear up the misconceptions.

 

[Seeker1961]

Good point! I have wondered about this one myself from time to time. Let’s take a closer look at the Canon law’s requirement for a yearly confession:

As per Canon 989:

The requirement for a yearly confession applies to the christian faithful. Attending mass, abstaining from meat, going to confession etc… are matters of Church discipline that apply to those who are within the Church, not a violation of natural law which applies to all human beings regardless of religion. Furthermore, the Church doesn’t recognize that those outside the Church are necessarly in a state of mortal sin, either… Only those that have felt the inner pull of conversion and have chosen to remain outside the Church in spite of this calling… As a result, no human law could ever licitly “force” somebody to convert to Catholicism.

Of course, a person’s chance for salvation are best if they are inside the Church, and we all have to work harder then ever to help evangelize!

I believe that most people know deep down that sodomy is wrong. If it was truly a virtuous act then why do the activists have to hide behind statements about “equal rights” and two people “loving” each other in order to sway public opinion? Why not just come out and say that sex between two men is natural and describe the acts in detail in order to sway public opinion to their side by eliminating ignorance about homosexual sex?

It’s the same with abortion. Why put a tiny little sign saying “Women’s health options” on the back of an abortion clinic? If there’s truly nothing wrong with abortion, why not use the word itself and put a huge sign on the front of the clinic showing the tools used by the doctor and the process of slicing the baby into pieces in order to show people driving by that abortion really isn’t as bad as all those “oppressive” Catholics make it sound??

If something needs to hide in the dark and shroud itself behind benign words in order to be accepted then that’s a huge clue that it’s evil. Even more so when criticism of the acts are met with hostility and attempts at censorship as we see so often in the pro-sodomy and pro-abortion media (why get angry if there’s a logical, over-powering reason for why it’s OK?)

That’s not the case with the Catholic Church, Her teachings are absolutely black and white and out there for everyone to see. Never once in the Church’s 2000 year history has Her moral theory needed to be changed or in any way contradicted itself (as per Christ’s promise that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Catholic Church). And I would never see a protestant accusing me of going to hell as being a reason to get offended! I would see this as a fantastic opportunity to help save a soul by asking what exactly this person disagree’s with about Church teaching and helping to clear up the misconceptions.

All very lovely…and a change from your original argument which was that we should do anything possible to save someone from risking their immortal soul. Not just “the faithful” which seems to be your new position…or is that just your position on things other than homosexuality?

There is no consensus outside specific religious communities that homosexuality violates some overarching “natural law”. And as for your hiding in the dark theory, if you were being bullied or otherwise demonized if your orientation was discovered-you’d learn to keep it in the dark around certain people too.

You want the world to change?? Change the focus to showing people WHY we make the choices we make. Right now, we’re doing it backwards-we’re telling everyone to say NO, NO, NO…but we’re not showing them how to get the strength to say NO when your instinct says YES. I have not heard ONE conversion story that starts with “People kept telling me that what I was doing was wrong and I would go to Hell so I stopped”. What I DO hear is “My family, friends, Pastor helped me to meet Jesus and He helped me to change my life completely”

 

[rorydaman]

I believe that most people know deep down that sodomy is wrong. If it was truly a virtuous act then why do the activists have to hide behind statements about “equal rights” and two people “loving” each other in order to sway public opinion? Why not just come out and say that sex between two men is natural and describe the acts in detail in order to sway public opinion to their side by eliminating ignorance about homosexual sex?

It’s the same with abortion. Why put a tiny little sign saying “Women’s health options” on the back of an abortion clinic? If there’s truly nothing wrong with abortion, why not use the word itself and put a huge sign on the front of the clinic showing the tools used by the doctor and the process of slicing the baby into pieces in order to show people driving by that abortion really isn’t as bad as all those “oppressive” Catholics make it sound??

If something needs to hide in the dark and shroud itself behind benign words in order to be accepted then that’s a huge clue that it’s evil. Even more so when criticism of the acts are met with hostility and attempts at censorship as we see so often in the pro-sodomy and pro-abortion media (why get angry if there’s a logical, over-powering reason for why it’s OK?)

That’s not the case with the Catholic Church, Her teachings are absolutely black and white and out there for everyone to see. Never once in the Church’s 2000 year history has Her moral theory needed to be changed or in any way contradicted itself (as per Christ’s promise that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Catholic Church). And I would never see a protestant accusing me of going to hell as being a reason to get offended! I would see this as a fantastic opportunity to help save a soul by asking what exactly this person disagree’s with about Church teaching and helping to clear up the misconceptions.

Many people think that though abortion should be legal it should be the last resort and should happen infrequently.

As for Sodomy being wrong because people don’t talk about it in a public forum, instead they focus on equal rights and loving each other…I have no idea how you could see that as wrong. When Christians talk about marriage do they talk about love or do they talk about the intimate details of the sexual act? It is as if you are saying that sex is the only thing that makes a marriage and love is just secondary.

 

[MidnightSun12]

Many people think that though abortion should be legal it should be the last resort and should happen infrequently.

As for Sodomy being wrong because people don’t talk about it in a public forum, instead they focus on equal rights and loving each other…I have no idea how you could see that as wrong. When Christians talk about marriage do they talk about love or do they talk about the intimate details of the sexual act? It is as if you are saying that sex is the only thing that makes a marriage and love is just secondary.

Actually, within the context of christian matrimony, it’s very common to see detailed conversations on sexual acts within this very forum. Just take a look at some of the threads here on NFP and see just how detailed they get. The reason why it is spoken about so freely on a public forum with minors present is because there is no shame in talking about it if the affected parties are married in a licit marriage.

That said, however, a great many heterosexual relationships are very displeasing to God today in the secular world by engaging in pre-marital sex and contraception. For that reason, the sexual acts in these relationships start to be withdrawn into the darkness the same way that sodomy is.

When I started dating as a Cathoic I was actually very taken aback at just how freely practicing Catholics can discuss sexual topics without the feeling of shame or embarrasment. For example, I was able to discuss JPII’s theology of the body with women who I barely knew (a guy talking about sex on a first or second date in the secular world, however, would be a huge deal-breaker since it’s largely an unspoken language that people like to keep in the dark due to feelings of embarrasment).

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

All very lovely…and a change from your original argument which was that we should do anything possible to save someone from risking their immortal soul. Not just “the faithful” which seems to be your new position…or is that just your position on things other than homosexuality?

There is no consensus outside specific religious communities that homosexuality violates some overarching “natural law”. And as for your hiding in the dark theory, if you were being bullied or otherwise demonized if your orientation was discovered-you’d learn to keep it in the dark around certain people too.

You want the world to change?? Change the focus to showing people WHY we make the choices we make. Right now, we’re doing it backwards-we’re telling everyone to say NO, NO, NO…but we’re not showing them how to get the strength to say NO when your instinct says YES. I have not heard ONE conversion story that starts with “People kept telling me that what I was doing was wrong and I would go to Hell so I stopped”. What I DO hear is “My family, friends, Pastor helped me to meet Jesus and He helped me to change my life completely”

Actually you using confession as an example was a bad choice because that is only binding on the faithful, the sexual ethics are relevant to everyone because they are precepts of natural law.

Clearly doctors should also have signs explaining in great detail prostate exams or how chemotherapy works.

Actually considering how I’ve seen Catholics (on CAF even) talk about it it would be “People keep telling me that I am a slave of Satan, worse than a rapist, and as bad as a child molester or murderer and would burn in Hell because I’m worse than Hitler so I stopped.”

 

[scipio337]

Wanting civil law to remain secular does NOT mean that people do not personally adhere to or accept the teachings of the Church.

In my opinion once you open the door to allowing religious beliefs of any one faith to be the foundational basis for any secular law, you’re heading for trouble-especially in a country that has elections.

So every civilization in the history of mankind (who similarly did not recognize same sex marriages) were theocracies?

Laws defining marriage are, and always have been secular.

 

[CopticChristian]

Many people think that though abortion should be legal it should be the last resort and should happen infrequently.

As for Sodomy being wrong because people don’t talk about it in a public forum, instead they focus on equal rights and loving each other…I have no idea how you could see that as wrong. When Christians talk about marriage do they talk about love or do they talk about the intimate details of the sexual act? It is as if you are saying that sex is the only thing that makes a marriage and love is just secondary.

Rory,

We talk about mind & body as if they are separate entities. We speak to understand. The reality is that they operate as one. There is no body without mind. There is no mind without body.

To speak of love for one another and to negate who it is you are speaking of is possible however in the context of two men or two women…the reality is that sodomites are sodomites and Lesbians are Lesbians.

Two people see each other, they long to hold each other, in their minds they imagine what they will do with each other, they come close to each other, they hold each other, they kiss, they disrobe, they entangle themselves sexually and then they…

Now if I take the above scenario and instead of using the word people…I use…

A man and woman

or

Two men

or

Two women

Then the entire scenario changes and causes whatever feelings or thoughts based on the premise that it is not neutral as a descriptive of behavior.

Neutral language does not engage what it is you are speaking of and in that context there is no right or wrong when speaking neutral. The entire scenario as described when saying people is void of reality.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Rory,

We talk about mind & body as if they are separate entities. We speak to understand. The reality is that they operate as one. There is no body without mind. There is no mind without body.

To speak of love for one another and to negate who it is you are speaking of is possible however in the context of two men or two women…the reality is that sodomites are sodomites and Lesbians are Lesbians.

Two people see each other, they long to hold each other, in their minds they imagine what they will do with each other, they come close to each other, they hold each other, they kiss, they disrobe, they entangle themselves sexually and then they…

Now if I take the above scenario and instead of using the word people…I use…

A man and woman

or

Two men

or

Two women

Then the entire scenario changes and causes whatever feelings or thoughts based on the premise that it is not neutral as a descriptive of behavior.

Neutral language does not engage what it is you are speaking of and in that context there is no right or wrong when speaking neutral. The entire scenario as described when saying people is void of reality.

Err, you are aware that in the sodomite group there are more heterosexuals right?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Laws defining marriage are, and always have been secular.

Precisely.

 

[majorem]

Err, you are aware that in the sodomite group there are more heterosexuals right?

Whats your point…? Do you accept the Church’s teachings on same sex attraction/celebacy/living chaste lives …I mean…I am not sure why the discussion continues…please help me to understand the ongoing thread …the ongoing philosophical arguments suggesting that there is some valid argument suggesting that living openly homosexual lifestyles are somehow alright given feelings, attitudes…love, and…I am curios where you receive your statistics/facts regarding ‘more heterosexual sodomy than homo" and even if this were true…how can this argument support the act …because so and so does it anyway…I believe the Church is quite clear regarding Her stand on homsexuality … so…if I am mis reading the threads in assuming that there are those out there that wish to continue to argue that homosexuality is normal (I’'m sure I’ll feedback on this - normal) because it’s become in vougue …why…? I don’t think the Church is going to somehow change it’s attitude on the matter of chastity for the non married…so why ‘beat the drum’ there are other churches that welcome individuals who have same sex attraction and live openly homosexual lifestyles…by the way…I’m not judging anyone…the rules are the rules …I have family members who left the Catholic Church because they disagreed with some of the teachings of the Church…and they are Godly people…they seem quite happy worshiping elsewhere…Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

 

[Stephen168]

As for Sodomy being wrong because people don’t talk about it in a public forum, instead they focus on equal rights and loving each other…I have no idea how you could see that as wrong.

Equal Rights and Love are not wrong; they just have little to do with what marriage is.

When Christians talk about marriage do they talk about love or do they talk about the intimate details of the sexual act?

We talk about both. We also talk about the kids, money, family, etc.

It is as if you are saying that sex is the only thing that makes a marriage and love is just secondary.

Sex is one of the things that make a marriage and sometimes love is secondary.

 

[Stephen168]

Some people get married and plan on starting a family. Some people get married without any plans to have children. Why should your religious values guide the values of those that do not follow your religion?

I don’t think they are religious values. How and why did people get married a 1000 years ago with no plans to have children?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Err, you are aware that in the sodomite group there are more heterosexuals right?

How do you know this?

This justification based on pro-gay “researches” is not a good argument, along what the poster marjoram has raised. It is not credible that many women, religious or not, married or not, would prefer it “there.”

Tu quoque and exaggeration are ineffective as debating methods. Further, hypersensitivity and overuse of dramatics / emotion are also unnecessary in honest discourse.
,