LGBT Policy at work

[TheAmazingGrace]

Gender roles does not entail changing your pronoun and wearing lipstick if you’re a man. Plenty of men do traditional woman’s roles without wearing high heels and vice versa.

There’s a huge difference between someone who engages in activities traditionally associated with the opposite gender, and someone who feels radically uncomfortable with embodying their assigned sex.

For example, a cis woman and a trans man might both enjoy volunteer firefighting and prefer pants to skirts, but the difference is that the cis woman is mostly comfortable with female embodiment, while the trans man prefers male embodiment.

 

[therese1998]

I suppose you could say something about how in a clinical setting it’s policy to use whatever gender pronoun the patient wants in order to facilitate care or something.

This could be a possible compromise

So if they told you to do something against your deeply held religious beliefs, you should do it or quit? That would be a hostile work environment, which is illegal.

Yes, you could potentially take the stand that your own rights are being ignored. I’m not a lawyer, but I would say you have grounds. That would be a legal battle with precedents going both ways. Just as the “stay or go” is your decision, so this would be as well. It’s up to you whether you are comfortable or not working in what could quickly become a very hostile workplace. If, as you say, the point of the training is to specifically force Christians to call trans-gendered people by their preferred name/gender, then you have a decision to make. It’s more than a knee-jerk “no”. Try to think through the possible consequences of failure (not simply the loss of this job, but a potential “blackballing”, owing attorney fees, fines from the government, loss of income, impact on your family, retaliation from higher-ups, etc). Do research into similar cases that have been filed and how they went. Of course, even before you do this, pray to know His will in the matter. In a case where you job has become hostile to Christians, then your only choices are to fight, flee or comply.

So which restroom at work should a trans-man use?

Single use bathrooms would accommodate everyone

 

[therese1998]

I think Jesus would understand.

Perhaps He would…He was, after all, completely revolutionary in His time. I, however, would NEVER go with the “Jesus would understand” defense as it means that I can understand the mind and the will of an omniscient, omnipotent being who is the perfect blend of mercy AND justice. We cannot know His mind, we can only follow what He tells us to do. Jesus was very, very compassionate towards the woman caught in adultery, but He did not “understand” her excuses. He told her He loved her and to go and sin no more. He did not say “It’s okay because society has decided that you have a very strong desire to be an adulteress and, in compassion, we all have to affirm you in that”.

Did you ever think of the courage it takes to come our as transgender? It’s not something people do lightly and mocking the situation with things like this are not even close.

I think you are assuming mockery where there may not be any intended. Also, this is a deflection. The issue was whether you would call him Superiorman or not. It was not about the courage it takes to come out as transgender.

To me, the issue isn’t respect, the issue is agenda. If I sincerely believe I am Abraham Lincoln and I want to change my genitalia, force employers and co-workers to call me “Mr. President” and attempt to move myself and my family into the White House, society would rightly object. Perhaps they would do it with sensitivity and compassion, but I would be committed, against my will, to psychiatric treatment and, possibly, residential treatment. While we may all agree that “Jesus would understand”, we can all agree that he would support psychiatric intervention. If, however, I seek surgery to change my genitalia, insist that I be called by a different pro-noun and sue to have my birth certificate changed, I am “courageous”, Jesus would support my choices and even the mildest form of discomfort with it would be classed “discriminatory”. That is the state of our relationship to LGBTQ issues right now and, IMO, is almost exactly the definition of cognitive dissonance.

 

[MarisStella123]

LOL. You guys, this is all part of their ‘plan’, basically to normalize fluidity in gender. I’ve been though my fair share of ‘diversity’ (aka transgender) workshops, and the people running these things are watching you and your reactions, to be sure! The Lavender Mafia is just the tip of the iceburg… People are being chosen for managment/promotions depending on their position on these issues, how the HR love to know if you are ‘questioning’ your sex.

No comment.

That being said, it is the reality that who you work for is against Catholic teaching on these issues. Protect yourself, and pray for the healing and conversion of these specific people. Above all, love them in a way God loves them. Pray and ask God for the healing of the evil that may be in them, as could be in any one of us. We want them to be healed so that they will ultimately fulfill the destiny God has for them, as He has for any of us, to be with Him for eternity.

 

[Axsenex]

Have it your way just like Burger King

 

[PJH_74]

I’m going to leave this topic with this. HR rules are about people playing nice together. It’s not a culture war. It means Christians are allowed to display religious items. It means Catholics need not be evangelized to by Protestants. Why not the same objection to people of non-Christian religions? Clearly this is anti-Christian beliefs. An LGBT person should not publicly and execessively attack religion. Catholic teaching is about compassion to LGBT people I see using preferred name as part of that.

 

[MarisStella123]

Catholic teaching is about Truth…

Truth about marriage being only between a Man and a Woman…
Truth about no divorce…
Truth about no contraception…
Truth about no fornication/adultery
Truth about not lying, stealing, etc…

You can’t be compassionate to someone by suppressing the Truth. Sure, humor the person by calling them by their preferred name/gender, etc., but deep down, the Truth cannot be changed. If I were that person who did not have the Truth, I would hope to God there would be someone out there to correct me, even if it wasn’t what I wanted to hear. I would hope that person would not give up on me, would keep praying for me to live the life that God wants for me; to not abandon me, no matter how much I’m attached to my wrong beliefs, to keep hoping for my conversion that I may be united to God, and not to Lies. That is Love.

 

[PLeeD]

PLeeD:

What we have here is, Christians engaging in personal interpretation of scripture…

Actually, the Pope has spoken on this…

A couple of things about that… but first let me reverse-virtual signal by saying I’m 100% opposed to gay marriage, and am opposed to legislating that businesses must accommodate transgendered people in either employment or facilities. Oh, and I voted for Trump, and I think he’s knocking it out of the park. Having said that maybe you will consider what I have to say and not knee-jerk reject it.

First, you know that what the pope said there is not infallible. As such it is not doctrine. It is a message to faithful Catholics who should give it consideration even though they are not bound to what he says here as if it is the word of God.

Second, this message applies to you, not to the transgendered people you might encounter. Pope Francis also said in that speech:

“Valuing one’s own body in its femininity or masculinity is necessary if I am going to be able to recognize myself in an encounter with someone who is different…” - Pope Francis

That entire speech is about loving your neighbor. What the pope says there doesn’t relieve you from the call to love your neighbor and treat them charitably.

Instead of seeing a guy in a dress or a girl with a butch haircut as your mortal enemy, the pope is telling you to see your own broken human-ness in that person. You are to love them as God loves them, and realize you need grace and forgiveness as much as they do.

What the pope says there is compatible with being polite to someone different from you by relating to them in the ways that make them comfortable, including referring to them by the name or pronoun they would prefer.

To explicitly do the opposite to a person standing in front of you is cruel. It is not loving. It is something other than Christ-like.

 

[anon65111186]

Oh, and I voted for Trump, and I think he’s knocking it out of the park.

I agree, I did as well. We are on the same page there.

First, you know that what the pope said there is not infallible. …it is [not] the word of God.

I know this, and agree.

Second, this message applies to you, not to the transgendered people

It is to all the faithful yes, but it is also a message to all people. That is the drift of all messages, it doesn’t exclude anyone unless explicitly to pastors etc.

… in an encounter with someone who is different…” - Pope Francis

Different means the opposite sex from you, not different as in transgender. Ironically, he is saying affirm your own gender first before you can value what is different than your gender. Transgendered people don’t do exactly that, affirm their God given gender.

What the pope says … doesn’t relieve you from the call to love your neighbor

See above, it is about affirming the value and meaning of your body, given by God. Even though loving your neighbor is the utmost commandment, it is not the explicit topic there. It’s not if you don’t call them by their preferred pronoun, then you are not loving.

Instead of seeing a guy in a dress or a girl with a butch haircut as your mortal enemy…

I don’t see them as my enemy, and wouldn’t recommend anyone see them that way.

What the pope says there is …being polite …make them comfortable, including referring to them by the name or pronoun they would prefer.

Talk about interpreting messages, it seems you’ve done some interpreting there, including that the pope is suggesting us to be polite, make transgenders comfortable, and even referring to them by their preferred pronoun! That is not explicit or even deducible from the Pope’s message.

To explicitly do the opposite… is cruel. It is not loving. It is something other than Christ-like.

To not be polite is to not love? Making others uncomfortable? Christ sure did those things, I don’t know how comfortable those money changers in the temple where, and neither do I think they said “how polite Jesus is, turning over money tables in a rage like this”

Do you think Jesus would create someone as a man, and then command others “thou shalt call this person I made as a man, a woman!” ?

 

[anon65111186]

I’m going to leave this topic with this. HR rules are about people playing nice together. It’s not a culture war. It means Christians are allowed to display religious items. It means Catholics need not be evangelized to by Protestants. Why not the same objection to people of non-Christian religions? Clearly this is anti-Christian beliefs. An LGBT person should not publicly and execessively attack religion. Catholic teaching is about compassion to LGBT people I see using preferred name as part of that.

When those at my company talk about Christians in particular and call them bigots for not wanting to call transgendered by their pronoun, is that playing nice?

 

[JMMJ]

An employer can’t force someone to violate their beliefs.

Correct, but they can fire you for not performing to their expectations. For example, if you go to work in a strip club as a server, but decide you aren’t willing to serve when the stripping is going on because it offends your in some manner, then you can be let go for not performing the job you were hired to do.

Expecting health care workers to use the desired pronoun of the patient is not requiring them to go against their religious belief. Now if you expect them to to tell the transgender person that they agree with everything about their transgederism, that would be different. Calling someone what they wish to be called is just calling someone what they wish to be called. It is nothing more or nothing less than that.

 

[anon65111186]

If, however, I seek surgery to change my genitalia, insist that I be called by a different pro-noun and sue to have my birth certificate changed, I am “courageous”, Jesus would support my choices and even the mildest form of discomfort with it would be classed “discriminatory”. That is the state of our relationship to LGBTQ issues right now and, IMO, is almost exactly the definition of cognitive dissonance.

Very well spoken, that is right on. The bias has gone the other way, nobody minds about offending Christians or being compassionate towards Christians, it is all the other way.

 

[anon65111186]

There’s a huge difference between someone who engages in activities traditionally associated with the opposite gender, and someone who feels radically uncomfortable with embodying their assigned sex.

Good distinction, and that was my point, you can’t conflate gender roles and progress in women’s rights and the changing gender roles in society with transgender issues. The changing gender roles may have played a part however, in thinking everything under creation is a construct of man.

There is a dividing line between human constructs and natural things created by God and under natural law, which are fixed towards a certain good and ordered purpose. Biology is one of those, our biology achieves amazing things under the laws God has created in us.

When we try to play God, things get disordered and disorder begets disorder. We have to learn what is within our domain, and which is under God’s domain. We don’t get to choose our biology, and part of that is our gender.

 

[anon65111186]

Expecting health care workers to use the desired pronoun of the patient is not requiring them to go against their religious belief

This is not so much about patients, but coworkers who are transgendered. That is the rub, can a employee claim a religious discrimination claim if they were fired because they wouldn’t use a preferred pronoun? The law has yet to come down on that clearly. Title VIII tends to protect religious liberty if it creates a hostile work environment.

 

[PJH_74]

A couple of things about that… but first let me reverse-virtual signal by saying I’m 100% opposed to gay marriage, and am opposed to legislating that businesses must accommodate transgendered people in either employment or facilities. Oh, and I voted for Trump, and I think he’s knocking it out of the park.

I appreciate your response on the topic. While, if it wasn’t obvious, I take an opposing view on most of the above; I really appreciate your ability to come to this discussion with the idea that humanity is our first and foremost call of Jesus. Our current political situation would benefit from this highly.

 

[JMMJ]

This is not so much about patients, but coworkers who are transgendered. That is the rub, can a employee claim a religious discrimination claim if they were fired because they wouldn’t use a preferred pronoun? The law has yet to come down on that clearly. Title VIII tends to protect religious liberty if it creates a hostile work environment.

In my opinion, yes they can and should be fired. If I work with Bob, and everyone knows his name is Bob, but he wishes to be call Jim, then I call him Jim. To call him otherwise is disrespectful to him. Disrespect can breed hostility and hostility is not good for a collaborative and supportive work environment. Not being a good team player is 100% a valid reason for letting someone go (assuming it is well documented).

This whole issue is so petty to me. Anyone who is transgender is struggling in this world, for so many reasons. How unkind to purposefully and knowingly cause them additional distress by not addressing them properly (as in how they wish to be addressed). It is a shame there need to be H/R policies around this issue, but by some of the posts on this thread it is clear that the need is there.

 

[anon65111186]

In my opinion, yes they can and should be fired. If I work with Bob, and everyone knows his name is Bob, but he wishes to be call Jim, then I call him Jim. To call him otherwise is disrespectful to him. Disrespect can breed hostility and hostility is not good for a collaborative and supportive work environment. Not being a good team player is 100% a valid reason for letting someone go (assuming it is well documented).

Well if you were the HR boss, then you would have a legal issue on your hands, because claims similar to that have been successfully made in courts, and the company had to pay for the religious discrimination.

Calling Bob Jim is not the same thing as calling Bob Joreen. Both Bob and Jim refer to a male gender, but Joreen refers to a female gender. They are not the same.

How unkind to purposefully and knowingly cause them additional distress by not addressing them properly (as in how they wish to be addressed).

The whole question is whether calling someone a gender they truthfully are not is proper. By your logic, if I wished to be called Barack Obama, and my name is Tim, and someone didn’t, then those who didn’t would be causing me distress I didn’t need.

The quantity of stress or hardship in one’s life doesn’t justify forcing others to say something that is not true. Calling a man a woman is simply not telling the truth.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Do you make a similar fuss about names in other situations?

If Sue Brown gets a divorce and returns to the use of her birth name, do you refuse to call her Sue Smith as she now prefers?

Are you going to claim that since your religion doesn’t recognize divorce, it’s not truthful to call her by her preferred name? Or will you claim discrimination because you have decided it’s your right to determine other people’s names?

You just want to bully people and it’s wrong.

 

[JMMJ]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Maybe I am weird, but I call people what they want to be called. If my mom wants to be called Queen Elizabeth, that is what I will call her. Might also take her in for an evaluation, because it would be out of character for it. It isn’t my place to judge why someone wants to be called something different from what I know them as, if I don’t have a close interpersonal relationship with them. I have no problem calling a co-worker anything, regardless of what I know their name or gender to be.

If this is a problem for you, I agree with the others who said you may wish to find a different line of work. The clock isn’t going to turn backwards on this issue. It is going to keep moving forward.

 

[anon65111186]

Do you make a similar fuss about names in other situations?

If Sue Brown gets a divorce and returns to the use of her birth name, do you refuse to call her Sue Smith as she now prefers?

Are you going to claim that since your religion doesn’t recognize divorce, it’s not truthful to call her by her preferred name? Or will you claim discrimination because you have decided it’s your right to determine other people’s names?

You just want to bully people and it’s wrong.

I’m sorry but you’re wrong, I don’t want to bully people, plus, such a claim doesn’t follow from anything I’ve said.

Calling Sue by her divorced or whatever last name is not an issue, since it doesn’t change her pronoun and gender identity. You can’t conflate the two.