Liberal Catholic?

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From Wikipedia on Socialism/Marxism:

For orthodox Marxists, socialism is the lower stage of communism based on the principle of “from each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution” while upper stage communism is based on the principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"; the upper stage becoming possible only after the socialist stage further develops economic efficiency and the automation of production has led to a superabundance of goods and services.

How does this compare?

[BIBLEDRB]acts 4:32-37[/BIBLEDRB]
 
i suppose you don’t get a more apt defination of a “liberal catholics” than an atheist who disagrees fundamentaly with church teachings, yet is still a catholic by virtue of their baptism, the “atheist catholic” has every right to call himself catholic as any liberal or orthodox but just shows how ridiculous the “i’m every much a catholic as those that hold true” is
martin luther was a catholic, yet he had the honesty not to try and claim it.

not that long ago i was at a mass where the priest give a sermon that he didn’t believe in God, is he catholic or not,

lord Jesus take pity on him.
 
I do not care for oxymorons and juxdipostions and all the rest of it as to put grammar and style onto a belief is a bit of a mix in itself isn’t it? Trying to box our faith rather than be free with our faith???
I’m not really sure what you mean, but if you ask me, I think we should box our faith. It’s not ours to tinker with, change, or selectively believe. It’s all there. In the box.
 
I like to follow the paths of some theological giants–Popes JPII and B16*–and say that I am socially liberal and morally conservative. That’s what being an orthodox Catholic means.

*Oh, and Jesus, too. I ought to include Him in there, too. 🙂

I think, like our popes and Jesus Himself, that we need to be quite liberal with our assets in feeding the poor and clothing the naked. And, like our popes and Jesus Himself proclaim, we need to be morally conservative.
 
The way language works is that things which exist or come into existence get words or phrases attached to them. The fact that I say someone like Sen. Pelosi is a liberal or cafeteria Catholic does not mean I am distancing myself from her or trying to say I am more Catholic than she is. It means that she is the type of Catholic who embraces socially-liberal ideas while continuing to consider herself a good Catholic. We need to be able to describe people like this, just as in previous csnturies we have had to describe Arians, Donatists, Ultra-Montanists, Modernists… Why?

Precisely *because we need to isolate their ideas *as anti-thetical to Catholic ideas.

This is extremely important, as these people give scandal: they teach others the lie that what they are doing can be consistent with the Catholic Faith.

If we cannot describe the phenomenon, it becomes much more difficult to discuss, and thus more difficult to warn people against. When it is an issue of more importance than even life or death, when it is a matter of someone’s risking an eternity in the fires of Hell, it is necessary to be able to warn, to discuss, to *name. *
AMEN!! 👍👍👍
 
I think most catholic liberals hate Michele Voris.

*Waits from wailing and nashing of teeth from said liberals…😉
 
Thank you for your explanation. I think I understand your position better now. 👍

That said, I still want to know why so many Catholic lay people are trying to solve the problem of other, poorly Catechized, Catholics? Why don’t we go to the Church with our cries? Whenever I suggest that the Church do something about it, feathers get ruffled by the “traditional” or self-described “orthodox” Catholics, that the Church is perfect – and they scream at me for finding fault with her. 🤷

Alan
Oh, I guess you didn’t hear me rant at the time of my non-practicing Catholic sister’s wedding officiated by an atheist who got some paperwork off the back of a matchbook… and it seemed that some in the Church expected me to be the bad guy!!!

Maybe I have my own liberal-Catholic tendencies 😉

Anyway, yes to some extent it would be great if members of the hierarchy would do what *I *think best and clamp down on them; however, I do see that 1 most if the current members of the hierarcht are trying to deal with a situation they inherited, and one which the Church has been dealing with for over 100 years.

And 2. that the layity does have a role to play, the first being to pray and make sacrifices for the members of the hierarchy–and this is extremely important. Also, we need to help the hierarchy in any way we can: it’s not like it’s all the responsibility of the religous, esp since the source of the religous is… the layity! But that gets into another topic altogether.
 
You bring up two completely totally different situations. One is where people enter *voluntarily *into communal life for the glory of God, and the other where people are forced into a condition of servitude which explicitly and viciously excludes God.

Notice tok that the Church has never in any way suggested that to be a good Christian the communal life is required, altho the religious life, because of the benefits to the soul and greater sacrifices, is considered an objectively superior life, if one is called to it.

The mere fact that two things resemble each other in some superficial way does not mean they are at all the same.
From Wikipedia on Socialism/Marxism:

For orthodox Marxists, socialism is the lower stage of communism based on the principle of “from each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution” while upper stage communism is based on the principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"; the upper stage becoming possible only after the socialist stage further develops economic efficiency and the automation of production has led to a superabundance of goods and services.

How does this compare?

[BIBLEDRB]acts 4:32-37[/BIBLEDRB]
 
Maybe I have my own liberal-Catholic tendencies 😉
Overall I like the way you look at it. But that may not be surprising, based on your screen name. I do hang around Franciscans from time to time. 😉

Alan
 
The mere fact that two things resemble each other in some superficial way does not mean they are at all the same.
I hardly see them as superficial. The fact is, what the apostles did was right along the lines of the Marxist “ideal” situation in terms of the mechanics of ownership. The difference, as you say, is that in Acts they buy in voluntarily. Well that’s what good socialists would do, too … problem is people won’t be good socialists because they milk the system. My point, though, is how can socialism be evil in the eyes of the Church, if it truly did live up to the ideal of each giving according to ability and taking according to need that is clearly describe in Acts? Almost word for word the Marxist ideal. My point is that the problem with socialism is not that it is evil; it’s that people don’t buy into it.

Thank you for pointing out about how in Acts it is voluntary. I had totally overlooked that aspect. :tiphat:

Alan
 
Overall I like the way you look at it. But that may not be surprising, based on your screen name. I do hang around Franciscans from time to time. 😉

Alan
Actually, my screen name refers to my patron saint, St Francis de Sales, but of course I also like St Francis of Assisi, along with St Francis Solano and St Francis Xavier. 🙂

St Feancis de Sales is the patron saint of apologists, publishers, the deaf… and I have been involved with each so he is a great patron saint for me!
 
How does our learning new things about God’s creation (science) affect faith and morals?
There’s a long history of this, going back as early as the early Greek language commentators on scripture, such as Origen. St. Thomas Aquinas used the empiricism inherent in Aristotelian philosophy to distill his philosophy and theological bases.

A more easy-to-understand version of how science affects faith and morals is the story of Galileo. His persecution was based on the Church in his contemporary times wrongly grafting a geocentric understanding of cosmology onto our understanding of faith and morals. In a sense, that’s a very good illustration of how our assumptions and desires (e.g., that humanity is the center of the universe) can cause us to mistake what is truly an element of faith from what’s actually a construct of human desire (i.e., coveting the universe to be as we wish). In the extreme, I would guess that such defending those constructs as essential to the faith (that later proves to be wrong) would qualify as idolatry (i.e., suggesting that true worship of God requires something artificially constructed by humanity). Science helped to purge the geocentric fallacy from our minds.

There are other such examples which might be listed here, but I’d rather not dwell on the particulars, but just to illustrate how science helps us.

This concept that learning from outside the Church can help to move us toward a truer understanding of our faith is reflected in Lumen Gentium 8:
  • “This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.”*
All authority is God-given; thus, God binds even before the Constitution does.
Agreed. But what does this mean in terms of practical politics? Saying that God binds may tell us our objectives (e.g., caring for “the least of these”) and Catholic social teaching may constrain how we best achieve those objectives (e.g., subsidiarity). However, specifying an objective does not dictate the strategy for getting there. We don’t like drug use, so we make it illegal. Does that mean that drug use and violence don’t occur? Violent crime is illegal, but it’s prolific, particularly in our cities. Speeding is illegal, but extremely common. We outlawed abortion before Roe v. Wade, yet I’ve seen estimates in pre-1970 scholarly articles estimating that the annual incidence of abortion was 250,000-1,000,000 (and yes, I’ve seen the article from the ex-abortionist who claims the number to be only 100,000, but as a scientist I place serious doubt in the precision of any single claim not published in a peer-reviewed journal).

To me, the way to solve these problems isn’t by trying to make the government into the Kingdom of God. It’s to build the Kingdom, through ministry, cultural change, mission (particularly among the poor), and holding a mirror up to the powerful. See Acts 1-8 for good examples of what I mean.

This isn’t to say “yay abortion” or any such thing. If you look today at who gets abortions, it’s predominantly young women who have insecurity in their personal economic situation and in their relationships. Look at Acts 1-8… how would the Apostles have handled this problem? Seriously, think about it outside our partisan political morass, and think about how you change the culture.
This past Sunday was the Feast of Christ the King. This is an important aspect of Catholic social teaching which we should all learn more about.
*“We are called to be light for the Kingdom, to live in the freedom of the City of God!”
*-David Haas, “We Are Called”
Most people using te term liberal Catholic mean it to describe a person who espouses and promotes beliefs which are contrary to the teaching of the Church while maintaining some form of Catholic identity.
While that may be the case, as a liberal Catholic, I am utterly opposed to this definition. I am a Catholic who attends mass at least weekly, is a member of a small church community within my parish, reads the Bible and CCC regularly, prays with my daughter every night when I put her to bed.

I am utterly disgusted by any assertion suggesting that being politically liberal has anything whatsoever to do with how faithful a Catholic is. Sorry conservatives, it’s not “your church,” and liberals aren’t heterodox rivals seeking to redefine the Church as a hippie commune in 1969. We read the same Bible you do. St. Paul was right when he said we are one body in Christ. He wrote these verses from 1 Corinthians in a different context, but it applies today as well:
“18First of all, I hear that when you meet as a church there are divisions among you, and to a degree I believe it;i 19there have to be factions among you in order that (also) those who are approved among you may become known.”
These contrary beliefs include that abortion is not something which should be prohibited, that marriage between a man and a woman is to be supported, that contraception is wrong, etc.
Again, I’ll just respond that I don’t think there’s only one way to achieve an objective, as those you lay out above. Just saying what you want to see happen in the world doesn’t make it actually true. We must be the Kingdom, and can’t leave it up the government.
A liberal Catholic as a descriptive phrase is different from a Catholic who happens to politically be one of the many forms of liberalism which exist.
Semantics.
 
I am a Catholic who attends mass at least weekly, is a member of a small church community within my parish, reads the Bible and CCC regularly, prays with my daughter every night when I put her to bed.

I am utterly disgusted by any assertion suggesting that being politically liberal has anything whatsoever to do with how faithful a Catholic is.
The shibboleth for me is this question: have you as a “liberal Catholic” altered your views to that which the Church proclaims, or do you remain constant with your own particular teachings, despite what the CC says?
 
I disagree with the definitions of what constitutes a liberal Catholic here…

There are dissenting Catholics, those who oppose the teachings of the Church, but that doesn’t make them liberal, but dissenting.

There are fundamental Catholics, those who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church fundamentally, in that they can recite parts of the Catechism, but it’s a fundamental interpretation without understanding the true meaning of the teaching.

As Pastor Rick Warren described a fundamentalist, applies here. A fundamentalist is a person who has stopped listening.

To me, a liberal Catholic, which I know I’m defined as in this forum, is a person who is open to the truth and continues to listen and grow in it.

A liberal Catholic is also open to those with dissenting opinions, because they are the people we need to help bring back to the truth, not celebrate their loss of faith.

Jim
 
I disagree with the definitions of what constitutes a liberal Catholic here…

There are dissenting Catholics, those who oppose the teachings of the Church, but that doesn’t make them liberal, but dissenting.

There are fundamental Catholics, those who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church fundamentally, in that they can recite parts of the Catechism, but it’s a fundamental interpretation without understanding the true meaning of the teaching.

As Pastor Rick Warren described a fundamentalist, applies here. A fundamentalist is a person who has stopped listening.

To me, a liberal Catholic, which I know I’m defined as in this forum, is a person who is open to the truth and continues to listen and grow in it.

A liberal Catholic is also open to those with dissenting opinions, because they are the people we need to help bring back to the truth, not celebrate their loss of faith.

Jim
Reading Rick Warren when your a catholic is like eating hamburger, when you could be eating a NY cut t-bone steak. The church has the saints and doctors of the church,
whereas Rick Warren is a pop culture icon. Note: he did’t call Obama on his “above my pay grade” remark about abortion. I was doubtful about Warrens commitment to orthodoxy
when I was a protestant, but after becoming a catholic, I only have contempt for Warrens
brand of self aggrandizement. 🤷
 
Reading Rick Warren when your a catholic is like eating hamburger, when you could be eating a NY cut t-bone steak. The church has the saints and doctors of the church,
whereas Rick Warren is a pop culture icon. Note: he did’t call Obama on his “above my pay grade” remark about abortion. I was doubtful about Warrens commitment to orthodoxy
when I was a protestant, but after becoming a catholic, I only have contempt for Warrens
brand of self aggrandizement. 🤷
Thanks for proving Rick Warren’s point. :rolleyes:

Jim
 
Pope Benedict XVI was (and still is?) considered a progressive in the Church. In the Latin Church any non-Thomist is “progressive”. Pope Benedict is Augustinian theologically. 🙂
 
Reading Rick Warren when your a catholic is like eating hamburger, when you could be eating a NY cut t-bone steak. The church has the saints and doctors of the church,
whereas Rick Warren is a pop culture icon. Note: he did’t call Obama on his “above my pay grade” remark about abortion. I was doubtful about Warrens commitment to orthodoxy
when I was a protestant, but after becoming a catholic, I only have contempt for Warrens
brand of self aggrandizement. 🤷
I didn’t know the saints and the doctors of the Church used the term “liberal Catholic.” Do you have an example you can share?
 
The shibboleth for me is this question: have you as a “liberal Catholic” altered your views to that which the Church proclaims, or do you remain constant with your own particular teachings, despite what the CC says?
As a number of Vatican II documents and the CCC itself proclaim, the Catholic faith is not a checklist of propositional statements. As Dei Verbum points out, it’s fundamentally about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ through the sacraments, and therefore experiential and is in dialogue with God. This is how our current Holy Father described it after the council:
“as a totality, in which word and event make up one whole, a true dialogue which touches man in his totality, not only challenging his reason, but, as dialogue, addressing him as a partner, indeed giving him his true nature for the first time.”

To have a true relationship with Christ, I believe that we must be honest with ourselves about one’s conflicts with Church teachings. That being said, I think it is critical that Catholics attend closely to the teachings of the Magisterium, particularly on doctrinal matters.

I think it is important to point out that the language that Catholics must closely “attend to” the teachings of the Magisterium was the language that was adopted over the previously rejected language pushed by the Curia, which said that Catholics must “conform to” those teachings.

Here is some language from V2 that better describes what I’m saying:
*
Aposolicam Actuositatem*
*Our own times require of the laity no less zeal: in fact, modern conditions demand that their apostolate be broadened and intensified. With a constantly increasing population, continual progress in science and technology, and closer interpersonal relationships, the areas for the lay apostolate have been immensely widened particularly in fields that have been for the most part open to the laity alone. These factors have also occasioned new problems which demand their expert attention and study. This apostolate becomes more imperative in view of the fact that many areas of human life have become increasingly autonomous. This is as it should be, but it sometimes involves a degree of departure from the ethical and religious order and a serious danger to Christian life. Besides, in many places where priests are very few or, in some instances, deprived of due freedom for priestly work, the Church could scarcely exist and function without the activity of the laity.

An indication of this manifold and pressing need is the unmistakable work being done today by the Holy Spirit in making the laity ever more conscious of their own responsibility and encouraging them to serve Christ and the Church in all circumstances.*

Dignitatis humanae (a document notable for its condemnation by Archbishop Lefebvre and the Society of Pope Pius X)
"In the formation of their consciences, the Christian faithful ought carefully to attend to the sacred and certain doctrine of the Church.(35) For the Church is, by the will of Christ, the teacher of the truth. It is her duty to give utterance to, and authoritatively to teach, that truth which is Christ Himself, and also to declare and confirm by her authority those principles of the moral order which have their origins in human nature itself. Furthermore, let Christians walk in wisdom in the face of those outside, “in the Holy Spirit, in unaffected love, in the word of truth” (2 Cor. 6:6-7), and let them be about their task of spreading the light of life with all confidence(36) and apostolic courage, even to the shedding of their blood."
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(NONSEQUENTIAL)
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“It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth. However, men cannot discharge these obligations in a manner in keeping with their own nature unless they enjoy immunity from external coercion as well as psychological freedom.”
 
I didn’t know the saints and the doctors of the Church used the term “liberal Catholic.” Do you have an example you can share?
I wasn’t referring to anyone being “liberal”. I was referring to a poster who quoted Rick Warren, my comment to the poster(who I think was saying he/she was liberal) was with
all the resources from the catholic church, why quote a protestant huckster.:confused:
 
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