Liberal Catholic?

[PRmerger]

I wouldn’t automatically say it, no. I would want an explanation and to see whether I fully understood and agreed with the explanation.

The Catholic model is fides quarens intellectum. Faith seeking understanding. You understand that since it is God speaking, you, by reason alone, can realize that he is going to be right. And you are going to be wrong.

And, thus we come to see Cardinal Newman’s trenchant words: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer.”

Like you’re a college student in a Calc 3 class. You know the professor has the right answer. You just can’t get it. So it’s your job to wrestle with the problem…until you come to the same answer as the professor.

I’m sure in the case of it definitely actually being God speaking directly to me, it probably would end up with me saying the above.

Well, the ONLY way you really know anything that God speaks is through the Catholic Church…so unless you are creating a god in your own image, you have to conform your beliefs to what the Church has said.

There is no other way to know what God has spoken.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

That said, Catholic culture in the UK seems to be very different to that in the US (judging from this site alone).

I’d say your last sentence probably more accurately describes me, than the paragraph before it

This is not mainstream Catholicism in the US, not even for orthodox Catholics. Heck, I’m not even considered conservative on this site.

I believe that I may understand. Without believing I cannot (fully) understand. -Sts. Anselm and Augustine. How can someone fully grasp the Truth without believing in it first? (Hint, you can’t) Science and reason must be used within a Christian framework (this is just my opinion).

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Well, the ONLY way you really know anything that God speaks is through the Catholic Church…so unless you are creating a god in your own image, you have to conform your beliefs to what the Church has said.

There is no other way to know what God has spoken.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit lives in each and every one of us, and speaks to us – via inexpressible groans? That’s how God speaks to me. If I put it into words it’s only an estimate.

As far as understanding Jesus’s words before believing them, I think a whole of people could be improved by not assuming they know what Jesus told them. For example, “be perfect.” OK how many people take Him at His word? I do. How about “the one who believes in me will do works greater than these?” I take Him at His word. If it seems impossible, I don’t say he’s wrong (like it seems most posters essentially do by watering down what He says) but that I don’t understand it.

Scientist Stephen Hawking said it well: “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

This is not mainstream Catholicism in the US, not even for orthodox Catholics. Heck, I’m not even considered conservative on this site.

I believe that I may understand. Without believing I cannot (fully) understand. -Sts. Anselm and Augustine. How can someone fully grasp the Truth without believing in it first? (Hint, you can’t) Science and reason must be used within a Christian framework (this is just my opinion).

I have a vastly different experience. My beliefs are not subject to my will. I can tell myself that I believe something, but I cannot lie to myself about it or force myself to believe it.

That’s what faith is for. Faith is what you have in the Truth. Then you come to believe it. At least if you think like I do. To me it seems quite shallow to be able to tell myself “I believe this” and voila! Now I believe. If my beliefs were subject to my will, it’d make life pretty simple. I’d just say the creed once, and I’m done for the rest of my life.

Alan

 

[Justicia_et_Pax]

Well, the ONLY way you really know anything that God speaks is through the Catholic Church…so unless you are creating a god in your own image, you have to conform your beliefs to what the Church has said.

There is no other way to know what God has spoken.

That’s your world view and I’m not hear to start fights with people. I humbly disagree with you and you’ll just have to accept that God is going to have more luck getting through to me than you are

 

[PRmerger]

Do you believe the Holy Spirit lives in each and every one of us, and speaks to us – via inexpressible groans?

Indeed, I do, friend.

But there is only One Holy Spirit. And if one person claims that the HS tells him that it’s okay to commit adultery, then there’s something wrong with that claim, don’t you think?

As far as understanding Jesus’s words before believing them, I think a whole of people could be improved by not assuming they know what Jesus told them. For example, “be perfect.” OK how many people take Him at His word? I do. How about “the one who believes in me will do works greater than these?” I take Him at His word. If it seems impossible, I don’t say he’s wrong (like it seems most posters essentially do by watering down what He says) but that I don’t understand it.

Scientist Stephen Hawking said it well: “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”

 

[PRmerger]

That’s your world view and I’m not hear to start fights with people.

This is a forum, JeP. As such, when we discuss it’s…discussion. It’s not a “fight”. (Unless you make it one. )

I humbly disagree with you and you’ll just have to accept that God is going to have more luck getting through to me than you are

If you could proffer what other way you know what God has revealed? That would be helpful.

 

[Justicia_et_Pax]

This is a forum, JeP. As such, when we discuss it’s…discussion. It’s not a “fight”. (Unless you make it one. )

If you could proffer what other way you know what God has revealed? That would be helpful.

I dunno, you seem to be quite intent on making me change or feel bad about myself, which I don’t think is particularly nice or necessary tbh… Then again, I am schizoaffective with paranoia being the main symptom so if it’s not your intention to do either of those things, I apologise

I’m just saying I am not of the mindset that we are the only valid denomination or that we are the only people that understand or encounter or will be saved by God. I understand God to be much broader than that. As Alan rightly pointed out, I think it’s far wiser to assume that we don’t entirely know what Christ meant a lot of the time. Also it is naive to assume that I can just click my fingers and submit my will to the Church, especially as I don’t believe in Papal infallibility. Equally, I can’t just make myself believe in Papal infallibility either.

Things like private/personal revelation or understanding are valid and important to my mind, though I’m not even necessarily talking about that.

At the end of the day, I was taught at university to question everything. Even God. Even the One True Church. Even Papal infallibility and Church doctrine. I think that’s healthy and intend to continue to do so I’m sorry if that offends people here and if it makes me a bad Catholic, then a bad Catholic I will be

 

[PRmerger]

I dunno, you seem to be quite intent on making me change or feel bad about myself, which I don’t think is particularly nice or necessary

What I am intent on doing is making you see that you are creating a god in your own image–rather than conforming your views to God’s.

I have no intention whatsoever of making you feel bad about yourself.

But if realizing that you got a problem wrong on your math test makes you feel bad about yourself, then I can’t help you with that. It shouldn’t make you feel bad. It should just make you want to get it right next time.

At the end of the day, I was taught at university to question everything. Even God. Even the One True Church. Even Papal infallibility and Church doctrine. I think that’s healthy and intend to continue to do so I’m sorry if that offends people here and if it makes me a bad Catholic, then a bad Catholic I will be

Why would it make you be a bad Catholic? You are aware, are you not, that Catholics are obligated to question everything.

Some Catholics, however, think that it ends there. With the questioning. Rather than seeking the answers and realizing that they need to struggle and then come up with the answer that the Professor gave.

 

[Justicia_et_Pax]

What I am intent on doing is making you see that you are creating a god in your own image–rather than conforming your views to God’s.

I have no intention whatsoever of making you feel bad about yourself.

But if realizing that you got a problem wrong on your math test makes you feel bad about yourself, then I can’t help you with that. It shouldn’t make you feel bad. It should just make you want to get it right next time.

Why would it make you be a bad Catholic? You are aware, are you not, that Catholics are obligated to question everything.

Some Catholics, however, think that it ends there. With the questioning. Rather than seeking the answers and realizing that they need to struggle and then come up with the answer that the Professor gave.

I get the feeling we could go round the houses forever here, so I’m gonna leave it at this. I understand what you are trying to say and thank you for trying, but I still respectfully and humbly disagree with your overall points and your analogies. It is night in the UK and I should probably sleep soon anyway…

God bless you and good night

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I have a vastly different experience. My beliefs are not subject to my will. I can tell myself that I believe something, but I cannot lie to myself about it or force myself to believe it.

That’s what faith is for. Faith is what you have in the Truth. Then you come to believe it. At least if you think like I do. To me it seems quite shallow to be able to tell myself “I believe this” and voila! Now I believe. If my beliefs were subject to my will, it’d make life pretty simple. I’d just say the creed once, and I’m done for the rest of my life.

Alan

I can’t force myself to believe in something, but if the Church, which speaks with the authority of God, says something, I’ll believe it first and then try to understand. If I understand it strengthens my faith.

I can’t tell myself to believe something and then believe it. I try to give up my will and intellect to Christ, and then have Christ aid my understanding. I try to do this, but I often don’t . Faith is a free gift from God.