Liberal Catholics, why are you still members of The Church?

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clem, that’s a great story. But is the purpose of the church to meet material needs and alleviate temporal suffering or is doing those things supposed to be a means by which we encounter Christ and learn to submit ourselves to Him? If doing those things becomes a substitute for inner repentance, that can be dangerous too. I don’t have an explanation for how well meaning people can be so opposed to revelation, but humans are simply funny that way. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that God still loved us even after the fall. Something still remained that was worth Jesus coming and dying for in His eyes. But that something isn’t enough without a Savior. We need Jesus, not just our own good works.
 
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Cinette:
*So knowing the Faith so as to be able to defend it is arrogant, presumptuous and just rude?

“Get behind me Satan!”*

You made a negative presumption about triumphguy, it was arrogant to try to teach him making the assumption that you know better and more about the Faith than him and it is rude to make personal comments.
 
manualman said:
clem, that’s a great story. But is the purpose of the church to meet material needs and alleviate temporal suffering or is doing those things supposed to be a means by which we encounter Christ and learn to submit ourselves to Him? If doing those things becomes a substitute for inner repentance, that can be dangerous too. ** I don’t have an explanation for how well meaning people can be so opposed to revelation, but humans are simply funny that way.** Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that God still loved us even after the fall. Something still remained that was worth Jesus coming and dying for in His eyes. But that something isn’t enough without a Savior. We need Jesus, not just our own good works.
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Many explanations. People are weak and prideful. They are brough up with 5 older brothers, which requires an assertive streak to survive. Their fathers die when they are young, leaving a mother and two Polish grandmothers to make decisions.
They are made to submit to misguided and misused male authority. Therer are many reasons why people have hardened attitudes of all kinds. This does not justify errors, but you are asking about explanations, thats the best I can do.
means by which we encounter Christ and learn to submit ourselves to Him?
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Here’s where you have have to be careful.
Who’s living a life of submission to Christ? Someone who “knows” the faith and believes that knowlege justifies them (it surely does not), or someone who lives it, despite lack of complete assent to doctrines, ie a “liberal”?
This is why I detest the labels.
 
Cinette said:
I apologise. I think I was still incensed with other posts and ended up “picking” on you. I do think we ought to encourage other members and pray for them. I am a revert and sometimes I get a little excited. I have been thru the hoops - revolutionary, progressive, secularist… then I came to my senses and became orthodox. :)😉
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A lesson for all of us – think before you press the send button

Triumphguy has a great love for His Church.
 
To even suggest someone leave the Church shows a self-righteousness I would look at very carefully. First of all, as far as I know, everyone in this thread is a layperson; without authority in the Church. Where is the call from the authoritative men of the Church for anyone to leave the Church? Theirs is the example we should follow.

I believe when an ex-communication is necessary, it pains the authoritative men of the Church to enact such upon someone.

It is nothing to rejoice over, or wish for. Is it expressing an unconditional love for one to want them separated? An unconditional love as He has for all of us?

Where would a Catholic in error learn the truth? Outside the Church?

To suggest others should leave the Church is like saying, ‘They are not as righteous as I am, and never will be!’ I believe Christ warned against such sentiments.

One should not try to divide the body of Christ.
 
triumphguy said:
Not all liberal Catholics want gay marriage, women priests or abortion on demand:eek:

On this forum you might be labelled a liberal Catholic if you go to Adoration in your sandals, hold hands during the Our Father, and like to shake hands at the kiss of peace!🤷

You might think me a liberal Catholic if I don’t believe in Biblical literalism in Genesis, believe in Evolution, like the OF, and take communion in the hand (all of which I do).

So why do I stay? 'Cos its my Church buddy! I belong to the Body of Christ: It’s my God, my Lord present in the Eucharist, my parish, and the place where I do my ministries, and where my family worships, and where my daughter serves on the altar:thumbsup:.
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👍👍

And I am grateful that I will be judged by Our Lord Jesus Christ and not by some of my brothers and sisters in the Church!
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
To even suggest someone leave the Church shows a self-righteousness I would look at very carefully. First of all, as far as I know, everyone in this thread is a layperson; without authority in the Church. Where is the call from the authoritative men of the Church for anyone to leave the Church? Theirs is the example we should follow.

I believe when an ex-communication is necessary, it pains the authoritative men of the Church to enact such upon someone.

It is nothing to rejoice over, or wish for. Is it expressing an unconditional love for one to want them separated? An unconditional love as He has for all of us?

Where would a Catholic in error learn the truth? Outside the Church?

To suggest others should leave the Church is like saying, ‘They are not as righteous as I am, and never will be!’ I believe Christ warned against such sentiments.

One should not try to divide the body of Christ.
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Great post.👍
 
benjammin said:
Not to be uncharitable, but if you don’t love it and what it stands for why stay? If you want a church that ordains women’s and accept gays and wants on demand abortion, go be a unitarian or a lutheran or what have you. Why do you stay? What keeps you catholic?
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There is always optimism.
 
clem456 said:
Here’s where you have have to be careful.
Who’s living a life of submission to Christ? Someone who “knows” the faith and believes that knowlege justifies them (it surely does not), or someone who lives it, despite lack of complete assent to doctrines, ie a “liberal”?
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Neither. The choice is a false dilemma. My orthodox doctrine doesn’t justify my failure to feed the hungry. A stupendously successful soup kitchen sponsor’s generosity doesn’t justify his moral rebellions and activities that incite others to rebellion. We all have these problems we’ve yet to overcome. If you could buy stock in Purgatory, Inc it would be a “no brainer” eh? 😉

A revealing difference is that I’ve met precious few orthodox people who actively disparage the corporeal works of mercy. I’ve met plenty of accomplished humanitarian catholics who disparage piety and orthodoxy. I wonder why that is?
 
LeeGrizz said:
Mrs Sally;9853429:
This is a rather uncharitable OP - certainly not anything that is going to change hearts and reconvert people. As long as people are in the Church and attending Mass, however infrequently, they are hearing the Word of God and are within our grasp to pull them back fully into the fold.
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Papa disagrees…

lifesitenews.com/news/pope-suggests-its-best-to-be-honest-and-leave-the-church-if-you-dont-believ
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Although Msgr Barreiro deserves credit for his work with Human Life International, I think his interpretation of what the Pope meant is not well reflected in the words which the Pope actually spoke.

The news article you cited is about Msgr Barreiro’s views, and although they are based upon remarks made by the Pope, they go far beyond what the Pope said.
 
Dale_M said:
Although Msgr Barreiro deserves credit for his work with Human Life International, I think his interpretation of what the Pope meant is not well reflected in the words which the Pope actually spoke.

The news article you cited is about Msgr Barreiro’s views, and although they are based upon remarks made by the Pope, they go far beyond what the Pope said.
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I believe you are correct, especially if one examines the words from the Pope.
 
manualman said:
Neither. The choice is a false dilemma. My orthodox doctrine doesn’t justify my failure to feed the hungry. A stupendously successful soup kitchen sponsor’s generosity doesn’t justify his moral rebellions and activities that incite others to rebellion. We all have these problems we’ve yet to overcome. If you could buy stock in Purgatory, Inc it would be a “no brainer” eh? 😉
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I wasn’t trying to set up a dilemma, just asking a rhetorical question to prove a point, which you have fleshed out well in agreement with the point I am trying to make.
A revealing difference is that I’ve met precious few orthodox people who actively disparage the corporeal works of mercy. I’ve met plenty of accomplished humanitarian catholics who disparage piety and orthodoxy. I wonder why that is?
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No it cuts both ways. A
d again, not all liberals or humanitarians are unorthodox and not all orthodox are neglectful, which is why it’s not a good idea to talk about the “Catholicity” of those we classify as liberals.

REally at root, the question is idolatry. Some people idolize doctrines and observances, some idolize their good works. It’s ironic, because it’s the same issue and people on both ends of the spectrum demonize one another for the same thing.
 
Cristiano said:
Here you are starting with a logical fallacy, you are implying that people that disagree with some of the Church teachings or disciplines do not love the Church. Just because I do not like someone I still love them, and a lot of people might have the same attitude toward the Church. Honestly, I think that people that truly do not love the Church already left her.
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Spot on 👍
I don’t agree with everything that’s going on in The United States but I would gladly give my life for her…as many have!
 
benjammin said:
Well with a name like Young Trad Cath I wouldn’t expect you to be liberal. Also, don’t think I mean economically. I’m talking about people who promote abortion gay marriage, married or women priests. I myself am more of an economic moderate, but I love my church and respect its views no matter how harsh they may seem
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You have to be careful here.

Of the things you listed, all of them are morally evil or theologically impossible except one.

Married priests. The Church has them, has always had them, will always have them.

The question on if the Latin Church should ordained married men to the priesthood as the norm rather than as an exception is a valid discussion.
 
Dale_M said:
Although Msgr Barreiro deserves credit for his work with Human Life International, I think his interpretation of what the Pope meant is not well reflected in the words which the Pope actually spoke.

The news article you cited is about Msgr Barreiro’s views, and although they are based upon remarks made by the Pope, they go far beyond what the Pope said.
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Thank you. We do well to go directly to the source for statements like this. As was said on another thread, Pope Benedict is an incrediably brilliant man, but doesn’t always speak in ways the rest of us understand at first hearing. However, to always rely on an interpreter of his words means we aren’t always hearing exactly what the Pope meant.

Going back to the OP, there have been “conversions” of people inside the Church from less orthodox to fully orthodox beliefs and practices. We as lay people need to pray for more of that and make the effort to charitably explain (and live) the truths of the Church.

Labelling people and kicking them out is not our job.
 
Please forgive me if I say something crazy or offensive (I honestly do not intend to, but I’m only casually familiar with Catholic teachings).

It seems that the issues raised by the OP–pro-abortion, pro-homosexuality–are more social issues, in the sense that these are not in themselves a spiritual belief. If a person should believe in these, but also believe in the Divinity of Christ, Immaculate Mary, that Christ is present in the Eucharist, etc., all within the Catholic teachings–then what?

I have practiced several religions, and never agreed with any of them 100%. I guess I’m just wondering out loud, musing where the “cutoff point” is when you agree some/disagree some with your church? I suppose each person has to weigh the “agree” against the “disagree” and decide for his or her self.

Jala
 
Jala said:
Please forgive me if I say something crazy or offensive (I honestly do not intend to, but I’m only casually familiar with Catholic teachings).

It seems that the issues raised by the OP–pro-abortion, pro-homosexuality–are more social issues, in the sense that these are not in themselves a spiritual belief. If a person should believe in these, but also believe in the Divinity of Christ, Immaculate Mary, that Christ is present in the Eucharist, etc., all within the Catholic teachings–then what?

I have practiced several religions, and never agreed with any of them 100%. I guess I’m just wondering out loud, musing where the “cutoff point” is when you agree some/disagree some with your church? I suppose each person has to weigh the “agree” against the “disagree” and decide for his or her self.

Jala
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The Church teaches that abortion and homosexual acts are sins, not just social issues up for debate.
 
The OP has a valid point. There are always exceptions but liberalism in Catholicism IS more often associated with gay marriage or pro choice. If one is so vehemetely opposed to such basics , can you really feel at ease vilolating these tenants of the faith even if it is just in thought? Apparently so. Just look at the political threads on this site and see the “Catholics” that use every excuse in the book to vote for a pro abortion, pro same sex marriage candidate.

The rationalization is astonishing.
 
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