Liberals admit the OF is a fabrication. Do Conservatives?

[keepitreal]

For the third time I will mention this. No one is adressing the original post. Instead this thread has been a launching point of traditionals and antitraditional discussion without any acknowledgement that the thread started under false pretenses. Re-read the title. It baits conservative Catholics with a lie. I know that most traditionalists do not stoop to such tactics, but why should anyone, if they truly believe something, need to bait and lie to get the ball rolling. The article is not name after this title. It was not written by a liberal. There is no liberal mentioned in the article. No one said anything was a fabrication, except the original poster.

Doesn’t this bother anyone else or is lying for the sake of tradition an acceptable practice.

Hey you make a good point. I chose that title as a good discussion tool. There are not that many Conservatives who will admit that the OF is a fabrication. Fr. Fessio is one of the very few Conservatives who do, which probably makes other Conservatives re-assign him to the 'schismatic" of “Traditionalist” camp; “Dis-obedient”, to be sure, so the Conservatives will call him (how could he be that if the Holy father says the same? "

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

For the third time I will mention this. No one is adressing the original post. Instead this thread has been a launching point of traditionals and antitraditional discussion without any acknowledgement that the thread started under false pretenses. Re-read the title. It baits conservative Catholics with a lie. I know that most traditionalists do not stoop to such tactics, but why should anyone, if they truly believe something, need to bait and lie to get the ball rolling. The article is not name after this title. It was not written by a liberal. There is no liberal mentioned in the article. No one said anything was a fabrication, except the original poster.

Doesn’t this bother anyone else or is lying for the sake of tradition an acceptable practice.

I thought I had addressed this when I pointed out the same things you have, that the author of the article is not a liberal. I simply considered the title of the thread to be confusing.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Doesn’t matter what they want people to know, because they truly are in full communion with the Pope. Geez, prayers that they may come into full communion one day, then bashing the next. Can we be a little less charitable, Deacon?

Maybe you have not been keeping up with the news. But talks with SSPX and Rome have broken down last month as SSPX refused to accept that only the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic was the only true teaching arm of the Church. Do you think this could have something to do with it. Just maybe???
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[I_Believe]

Brennan D, thanks for the courteous reply.

I-Believe: So Merton sinned like the rest of us (is this confirmed, or just a rumor; I have heard it too). I am disappointed when one falls from grace,especially in that way, but we are all human. Does being a sinner invalidate the validity of what one writes? The remark about the nurse seemed a little catty and adolescent in tone (smirk, smirk, nudge, nudge).

How did any of his explorations of Eastern religion affect the orthodoxy of his Catholcism? I had tried to read a short book of a collection of Merton’s wrtiings on Eastern religions. Intro notes that he may have misunderstood them, because his book sources about the topic may have less than accurate on the topics, too.

I’m not damning him, and I’m certainly not going to convince anyone to not read his works.

Merton, imo, misunderstood a lot of things. My point was, I’d suggest catholics, especially those discerning the priesthood, read the writings of saints before they read the thoughts of those who have not been deemed such by the Church.

Google Merton and decide for yourself

Compare him to St Alphonsus and consider which of these men’s writings would be most likely to build Faith.

 

[EasterJoy]

Little contradiction there, I think. If every Mass were EXTRAordinary in the same way as EMHC were, then you wouldn’t have any EMHC’s, therefore no EXTRAordinary Form either. Don’t want that, do you?

Is that what you meant, Easterjoy?

Well, not exactly. I just find it kind of interesting that there is not a widely-held definition of “extraordinary” that fits both EMsHC and the EF. Catholics do not seem to mean the same thing in both cases, regardless of their place on the left-right continuum.

Now, this may only reflect a shortage of ordained “ordinary” ministers: that is, if we had more priests and deacons than we knew what to do with (compared to now, mind you: if God calls them all, there cannot be too many!!), then EMsHC would become relatively more rare and the EF would become relatively more common, with both still being properly called “extraordinary.”

Still, I think it is interesting.

As for the original post, I still say that I take anything that someone says all the “liberals” agree on with a huge grain of salt. As a general rule (there are always exceptions!): the farther one goes to one extreme or the other in opinion, the more one is herding cats in terms of trying to define what “they all” think. If the people in question are American, triple that.

Point 2: I would lay money that the same liberals would call the EF a fabrication, too. I would doubt that they put the same negative connotations on the word “fabrication” that others might, and I would doubt that they would find a “fabrication” done over a relatively short time less valuable than one arrived at over a more glacial timescale.

I DID NOT SAY THE EF WAS A FABRICATION! I mean that the “liberals” referred to might say so, since they conceivably mean something very different than those they talked to would mean when using the same word. It is a thought.

 

[I_Believe]

Yet, the site your sig. line links us to is one of the
“Transalpine Redemptorists”, a congregation until recently associated with the Priestly Fraternity of St Pius X (SSPX), It has changed its name to “Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer” (Filii Sanctissimi Redemptoris). Henceforth they will use the initials “F.SS.R”.

I don’t understand??

The C.SS.R. is a fine bunch. However, since the Transapline Redemptorists are not officially part of their order, the TR, after their regularization, changed their name. No bitterness on Fr Michael Mary’s part. I can’t speak for the C.SS.R.

As far as the SSPX, they threw a fit and took Catholic, a publication of the F.SS.R., out of their chapels. Fr. Michael Mary, being full of joy in the regularization, has not removed the SSPX link from the blog. He is, imo, so far above that kind of hard heartedness, that nothing will his distrct him from his love for Christ, Pope BXVI ,and HMC.

IMO, Fr Michael Mary is a Saint. He is one of the most level headed traditionalists I’ve ever been blessed to learn of. Please take some time to browse the archives on his blog.

It may not be apparent in my posts here, but the man changed my understanding of what a proper traditional catholic mindset should be.

(It’s sad to hear the venom spewed at him on other forums by those who are sedes, but are afraid to admit it. )

 

[I_Believe]

Could it be that they do not want people to know who they truly are?
prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

They have nothing to hide Ed. They are on a little island in the Orkneys, and just a couple of weeks ago, sent 5 young men to the FSSP in Nebraska to become priests.

Our Lady knows who they are, as well as Our Father in Heaven and our Holy Father in Rome. BXVI knew what he was getting when he embraced them.

It was a very courageous move on their part. Sedes and wannabe sedes are having a fit over their regularization. They have lost many benefactors over this. It was a worthy sacrifice that surely pleases God.

Not directing this at you Ed, but it’s ironic that now many catholics in full communion with Rome have something new in common with the hardhearted. They shun these Holy men.

It’s exposed a lot of hypocrisy.

 

[I_Believe]

Maybe you have not been keeping up with the news. But talks with SSPX and Rome have broken down last month as SSPX refused to accept that only the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic was the only true teaching arm of the Church. Do you think this could have something to do with it. Just maybe???
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

They have nothing to do with the SSPX Ed. Their affiliation with the SSPX is history. Are you basing your thoughts on the fact that there is a link to the SSPX listed on the blog of the F.SS.R. ? If so, I can understand that. But please join our Holy Father in welcoming them home. They(F.SS.R.) are the good guys.

 

[CradleCath]

The C.SS.R. is a fine bunch. However, since the Transapline Redemptorists are not officially part of their order, the TR, after their regularization, changed their name. No bitterness on Fr Michael Mary’s part. I can’t speak for the C.SS.R.

As far as the SSPX, they threw a fit and took Catholic, a publication of the F.SS.R., out of their chapels. Fr. Michael Mary, being full of joy in the regularization, has not removed the SSPX link from the blog. He is, imo, so far above that kind of hard heartedness, that nothing will his distrct him from his love for Christ, Pope BXVI ,and HMC.

 

[I_Believe]

Thanks for the explanation. I couldn’t quite figure that out, but will try to learn more about Fr. Michael Mary & his work.

 

[Ignatius]

I’m confused, whose the liberal and where did they admit the OF is a fabrication?

What is OF?

 

[I_Believe]

What is OF?

Ordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy. The Novus Ordo Mass.

Pope BXVI, in his Summorum Pontificum, referred to the Novus Ordo as the Ordinary Form, and the Gregorian Rite (TLM, Latin Mass, Old Mass, etc) as the Extraordinary Form.

Two forms of the same Rite.

 

[I_Believe]

Thanks for the explanation. I couldn’t quite figure that out, but will try to learn more about Fr. Michael Mary & his work.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

They have nothing to do with the SSPX Ed. Their affiliation with the SSPX is history. Are you basing your thoughts on the fact that there is a link to the SSPX listed on the blog of the F.SS.R. ? If so, I can understand that. But please join our Holy Father in welcoming them home. They(F.SS.R.) are the good guys.

If it is as you say, then I indeed join the Holy Father in welcoming them home. I do admit, that I do not stay on top of all of this, as I have my hands full enough without trying to keep up with all of this.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Robster7]

Cradle Cath,

Kindly indicate where and when it is said Merton did drugs.
Where does he advocate their use?
Give me something specific about that, and his erroneous or heretical writing.

If you’re talking about Timothy Leary, yeah, he advocated drug use to expand ones mind. He most certainly damaged a lot of people who may have followed him.

 

[I_Believe]

If it is as you say, then I indeed join the Holy Father in welcoming them home. I do admit, that I do not stay on top of all of this, as I have my hands full enough without trying to keep up with all of this.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I understand. They are a group very small in number, so they don’t get a lot of ink.

I’ll admit, my signature is my way of hopefully drawing folks to the blog. They need financial support, especially since so many have now shunned them for embracing BXVI. They certainly don’t live a life of luxury. Support for them is support for vocations.

Rome is getting more out of their regularization than they are. They build faith.

 

[pnewton]

Hey you make a good point. I chose that title as a good discussion tool. There are not that many Conservatives who will admit that the OF is a fabrication. Fr. Fessio is one of the very few Conservatives who do, which probably makes other Conservatives re-assign him to the 'schismatic" of “Traditionalist” camp; “Dis-obedient”, to be sure, so the Conservatives will call him (how could he be that if the Holy father says the same? "

The who is the liberal (in the article that admitted teh OF is a fabrication? The fact that a traditionalist might consider it to be a fabrication is hardly new.

 

[cmevans]

I read a good portion of the article regarding both pre and post Vatican II liturgy. I am a 48 and a new convert to the beautiful, Catholic Church. I was brought up in the conservative baptist church. I find the worship during mass the most meaningful worship towards our Savior I have ever experienced; Infact, I find myself fighting back tears of joy. What I find interesting is the similarities between catholics and protestants believers. In the catholic camp there is a rivalry regarding the old vs new liturgy, which is the method of worship. In the protestant camp there is disagreement regarding the preaching of the Word. There is a shift taking place from teaching to a congregation of saved christians (church members) towards preaching to the unsaved (church visitors). As a result, there are no longer sermons regarding sin, hell, judgement day or the wrath of God because many pastors do not want to offend anyone in the congregation (which is really an audience). I left my church of many, many years because I could no longer stomach the unbalanced sermons regarding God’s love for mankind, His desire to save us if we would just believe and say a prayer with no reference to God’s attributes of justice, angry towards sin, and the need for true repentance. The inticement to bring the unsaved to the altar was the “assurance of going to heaven from this day forward if you say the sinner’s prayer and mean it”. I am grateful for the experience because it put me on the quest for God’s Truth. The next church I went to was balanced in God’s Word and I was happy to be in it. I thought I finally found a NT Church! I made the decision to read the early church fathers and of course that information led me to the Catholic Church. For me, Catholics must always remember to Thank our Father above for the Eucharist, and spend their time serving Him, learning the Church history to give non-catholics their reason for their beliefs in The Church (therefore, Christ). The extra time can be spent in love and respect for Church authority. I wish Martin Luther would have worked out his differences with the Church in this manner! Love to all my brothers and sisters in Christ!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

** For me, Catholics must always remember to Thank our Father above for the Eucharist, and spend their time serving Him, learning the Church history to give non-catholics their reason for their beliefs in The Church (therefore, Christ).** The extra time can be spent in love and respect for Church authority. I wish Martin Luther would have worked out his differences with the Church in this manner! Love to all my brothers and sisters in Christ!

**
bolding = mine**

This is an excellent point which should be so obvious, yet which is missed by so many people. The Eucharist is the source and summit of everything that is Catholic. It is such a precious gift to us and as an offering to our Father in heaven, one Eucharist sacrifice has more merit than all of the offerings of the Old Testament combined. We can only wonder about the love of God, which is so great so as to give us such a gift, Himself.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[keepitreal]

The who is the liberal (in the article that admitted teh OF is a fabrication? The fact that a traditionalist might consider it to be a fabrication is hardly new.

Avery Dulles, SJ is the liberal who admits the OF is a fabrication. The article quotes him. This is the liberal who admits it. But the article itself was written by a non-liberal,o.k.?