Liciety of Female Readers at Tridentine Masses

  • Thread starter Thread starter Padua_Minded
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

Padua_Minded

Guest
Apparentely it was perfectly licit for women to read the epistle or even the gospel at a dialogue Tridentine Mass (which was the norm in Europe, and became increasingly popular in the British Isles). Such readings could be done in the vernacular. Was this ever licit for non-Dialogue Masses? Would this still be licit today? Would it be pastorally prudent, in your opinion, for a priest to allow women to read at the old Mass?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Private Response of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith
December 16, 1961
(Canon Law Digest 6, 153)

On the 9th day of November last, His Excellency, the Most Reverand Maximiliam de Furstenberg, Apostolic Delegate to Australia, New Zealand and Oceania, submitted the following question to this Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith on behalf of His Lordship, the Most Reverand Launcelot Goody, Bishop of Bunbury:
“Is it permitted in a community of religious, or at a Mass when only females are present, or at a school Mass, when both boys and girls are present, for a female religious, or a schoolgirl to read the epistle or the gospel or both in the vernacular during a dialogue Mass?”
In reply I wish to inform Your Excellence that this Sacred Congregation, after mature deliberation, answers: “Yes.”
 
It says in the vernacular. What that means is that the priest or deacon would chant the readings, in Latin, and then someone else would read the vernacular translation.

Admittedly, not follwing the true spirit of what was intended by the rubrics, as no one but the priest or deacon is supposed to read the Gospel, but it was the 60’s. What can you say 🤷
 
muffinmojo said:
It says in the vernacular. What that means is that the priest or deacon would chant the readings, in Latin, and then someone else would read the vernacular translation.
Click to expand...
Ah, but in most European countries the readings were never said in Latin. Even today, SSPX priests in continental Europe almost never announce the readings in Latin.
 
Padua_Minded said:
Would this still be licit today? Would it be pastorally prudent, in your opinion, for a priest to allow women to read at the old Mass?
Click to expand...
Even if it were permitted, the idea of some old lady in a pantsuit waddling into the sanctuary to do the readings is so utterly foreign to the spirit of the liturgy, it just wouldn’t be feasible. You’d have difficulty finding a single woman in the congregation who’d want to do it.

Why on earth shouldn’t the priest simply chant the word of God - announcing it with dignity and reverence? Why is there any need for the laity to involve themselves in a function which properly belongs to the ordained? It seems that some people are still caught up in the idea that the Mass is about making people feel ‘included’…
 
It quite clearly states WHEN this may be acceptable:

Is it permitted in a community of religious, or at a Mass when only females are present, or at a school Mass, when both boys and girls are present

I don’t think we need to try to stretch the answer out to include ALL masses when the question was about only a narrow set of scenarios.
 
ibkc said:
It quite clearly states WHEN this may be acceptable:

Is it permitted in a community of religious, or at a Mass when only females are present, or at a school Mass, when both boys and girls are present

I don’t think we need to try to stretch the answer out to include ALL masses when the question was about only a narrow set of scenarios.
Click to expand...
Why not? Shouldn’t we consider the spirit of the answer rather than the answer itself?
 
ibkc said:
It quite clearly states WHEN this may be acceptable:

Is it permitted in a community of religious, or at a Mass when only females are present, or at a school Mass, when both boys and girls are present

I don’t think we need to try to stretch the answer out to include ALL masses when the question was about only a narrow set of scenarios.
Click to expand...
The thing is, this was only for Oceania, and it may not even be in force today.
 
ibkc said:
It quite clearly states WHEN this may be acceptable:

Is it permitted in a community of religious, or at a Mass when only females are present, or at a school Mass, when both boys and girls are present

I don’t think we need to try to stretch the answer out to include ALL masses when the question was about only a narrow set of scenarios.
Click to expand...
It is my understanding that it is illicit for any lay person to do any kind of readings during the Extraordinary form.
 
Dauphin said:
Why should we even consider this answer? This isn’t some document of the Holy See. It’s not even clear that it’s in force in its limited jurisdiction.
Click to expand...
The Congregation isn’t part of the Holy See? Or are you making a more nuanced distinction?
 
Miles_Mariae said:
The Congregation isn’t part of the Holy See? Or are you making a more nuanced distinction?
Click to expand...
No. I misunderstood the original post. It’s just not clear that this decision has global force, or is even the present judgment.

It really isn’t relevant, because virtually no traditional community would even consider lay readers.
 
Freshman88 said:
It is my understanding that it is illicit for any lay person to do any kind of readings during the Extraordinary form.
Click to expand...
Lectors are still ontologically and canonically considered lay persons, yet it is perfectly licit for them to read the epistle.
 
Freshman88 said:
are we talking about the Extraordinary form?
Click to expand...
Yes, we sure are, my friend. However lectors were canonically considered ‘clerics’ in 1962 (because they had received the tonsure) under the Pio-Benedictine Code of Canon Law. Pope Paul VI changed it so that the clerical state begins at the diaconate.
 
Padua_Minded said:
Yes, we sure are, my friend. However lectors were canonically considered ‘clerics’ in 1962 (because they had received the tonsure) under the Pio-Benedictine Code of Canon Law. Pope Paul VI changed it so that the clerical state begins at the diaconate.
Click to expand...
Wait a second, lay readers would have to get a tonsure?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

That ought to be a sufficient deterrent! Let’s re-institute this! 😛
 
Padua_Minded said:
Yes, we sure are, my friend. However lectors were canonically considered ‘clerics’ in 1962 (because they had received the tonsure) under the Pio-Benedictine Code of Canon Law. Pope Paul VI changed it so that the clerical state begins at the diaconate.
Click to expand...
sanctamissa.org/en/rubrics/

I was confused by what you meant when you said “lectors”.

After glancing at the rubrics, it is quite clear that there is no room for non-clerics to recite the epistle.

At a low mass, it is the celebrant.
At a sung mass, either the celebratant or a minister.
At a high mass, it is the sub deacon.

Seems pretty clear that the laity cannot recite the epistle.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top