Liciety of Female Readers at Tridentine Masses

[KestrelRose]

I have been wanting to learn more about the TLM. . I lean more toward tradition. I am hoping that what I have heard here is not what traditionalists are about.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Uh-huh. Most of the things you refer to are in essentially domestic settings. What I’m talking about, and what St. Paul was talking about, is public teaching of an authoritative nature.

What do you make of St. Paul’s teaching? I’m simply re-iterating what he’s saying, in an even more nuanced way. I suppose you must disagree even more vehemently with scripture.

How do you reconcile your interpretation of this scripture with the fact that the Catholic Church permits a lay women to give (“preach”) the reflection at a communion service (“Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Priest”)? Seems to me like this would be a public teaching of an authoritative nature.

 

[DarkNight]

…In order for a comment to be spiteful, it has to be motivated by spite - and the commenter has to feel spite. I assure you, it wasn’t, and I didn’t…

I do not know you; much less do I know your motivations.
I was reading this thread with interest when I came across your post (# 4).
I was shocked by the derogatory statement you made at the start of your first sentence.
When the deragatory nature of your statement was pointed out to you (post #26 et al), you and others “laughed” (ex: post #46 ) at those who found it insulting & degrading.
Then in post #59 you say you weren’t being spiteful.

Sorry but it is much to little much to late. Your other posts testify to your lack of civility towards older women.

The fact that you’ve focused on a single sentence - even a single word - and belted out emotional comdemnations instead of engaging my argument reasonably, reveals a lot.

 

[Dauphin]

How do you reconcile your interpretation of this scripture with the fact that the Catholic Church permits a lay women to give (“preach”) the reflection at a communion service (“Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Priest”)? Seems to me like this would be a public teaching of an authoritative nature.

No reconciliation is possible, or necessary. This isn’t some matter of doctrine relevant to the infallibility of the Church. It’s not un-Catholic to consider certain indults as very bad ideas.

 

[Dauphin]

I do not know you; much less do I know your motivations.
I was reading this thread with interest when I came across your post (# 4).
I was shocked by the derogatory statement you made at the start of your first sentence.
When the deragatory nature of your statement was pointed out to you (post #26 et al), you and others “laughed” (ex: post #46 ) at those who found it insulting & degrading.
Then in post #59 you say you weren’t being spiteful.

Sorry but it is much to little much to late. Your other posts testify to your lack of civility towards older women.

Your posts continue to testify to how ludicrous this discussion is. You’ve come to utterly preposterous conclusions based on my comment. No reasonable person could come close to saying the things you’ve said in response to something so minor.

I said that old ladies in pantsuits doing the readings is contrary to the spirit of the liturgy. There’s absolutely nothing derogatory about it, except to over-excited and easily-offended minds.

The fact that you so quickly defended your terminology speaks volumes about you.

In the future, you may want to take a step back from the keyboard before you hit the “Submit” button and ask yourself"does my terminology correctly get my point across in the way I intend?"

“how might others interpret what I’ve written?”.This being a board, you don’t have the instant give and take of a normal conversation.

If you truly did not mean to come across as derogatory & spiteful, you probably should have cleared that up in your reply to my first post.

Go with Love, Go with God

I’m not going to censor myself to ensure that people who are completely off their rocker won’t misinterpret what I’ve said. I won’t live in fear of absurd misrepresentation and hyperbole.

 

[Dauphin]

I have been wanting to learn more about the TLM. . I lean more toward tradition. I am hoping that what I have heard here is not what traditionalists are about.

I knew this old canard would come up!!! It’s so bloody predictable:

“Well now! I was so very sympathetic to tradition, but now that I see what meanies traditionalists are, I’ll have nothing to do with it. See what you get by not being nice?!?!”

This is one of the most patently absurd threads I’ve ever participated in. I say that old ladies in pantsuits have no place doing readings and it’s as if I’ve committed apostacy.

Why don’t you hysterical old ladies go elsewhere if you’re so easily offended? The Traditional Catholicism forum isn’t a place for the faint hearted.

The rhetoric I’ve used pales in comparision to the things most Traditionalists say.

 

[Dauphin]

Here’s an example of how readings should be done:

fsspolgs.org/audio/summer/10_6th_Sunday_after_Pentecost_Epistle.mp3

 

[scylla]

Wow what a silly discussion…please look at the point of the post, rather than picking words out to distort the point and seek to win. Catholicism is about seeking truth and representing it.
Look at the whole of the post and honestly respond, charity is also about setting aside emotion and putting truth first.

Let me clarify Dauphins statements,
it is wrong to have laity read the Scripture, as the proper place for the laity is offering up prayers and their Sacrifices together with the Priest, with the laity in the pews and the Priest in the sanctuary.

It just is common in many Parishes to have many older ladies dressed in a mannish clothes. He was just pointing out the obvious, that those who push for this sort of thing enjoy dressing like men and seek to emulate the Priest.

If you would like some examples just click on the womyn priest website

Now can anyone give an honest response to his objections, and not just seek emotional responses? God wants us to be honest with ourselves and others.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[KestrelRose]

I knew this old canard would come up!!! It’s so bloody predictable:

“Well now! I was so very sympathetic to tradition, but now that I see what meanies traditionalists are, I’ll have nothing to do with it. See what you get by not being nice?!?!”

This is one of the most patently absurd threads I’ve ever participated in. I say that old ladies in pantsuits have no place doing readings and it’s as if I’ve committed apostacy.

Why don’t you hysterical old ladies go elsewhere if you’re so easily offended? The Traditional Catholicism forum isn’t a place for the faint hearted.

The rhetoric I’ve used pales in comparision to the things most Traditionalists say.

This hysterical old lady will go where the love of Christ is shown forth. I will go to my little mission church and stand in front of Mary and ask her to help me understand why a desire to understand Tradition comes with such a price. I will continue to receive the Precious Blood and Body of Christ from the hands of a priest who understands that hatred in not the answer. I will not darken this door again and I probably will never attend a TLM. I have learned what I needed to learn about the mentality of those who do attend.

 

[Dauphin]

This hysterical old lady will go where the love of Christ is shown forth. I will go to my little mission church and stand in front of Mary and ask her to help me understand why a desire to understand Tradition comes with such a price. I will continue to receive the Precious Blood and Body of Christ from the hands of a priest who understands that hatred in not the answer. I will not darken this door again and I probably will never attend a TLM. I have learned what I needed to learn about the mentality of those who do attend.

You do understand how ridiculous you are, I hope? Your reactions here have been positively dotty. You’d think I’ve ordered you to be put on the rack for heresy or chased you around with a pitchfork.

 

[brigid12]

Uh-huh. Most of the things you refer to are in essentially domestic settings. What I’m talking about, and what St. Paul was talking about, is public teaching of an authoritative nature.
:yup: I used to be in agreement with you on this, however I need to stay obedient to the Church and the Vatican said that reading Scripture is not what St. Paul is referring to but giving the homily would be.

If that old man isn’t a cleric, no. There’s absolutely no reason for laity to be performing that function, except according to the mistaken approach that Mass is about us and making everyone ‘feel included’.
Again, same response as above.

There’s a general correlation.

Sometimes, however the pantsuit is a lot better than shorts and T-shirt.

I’m a middle-age woman and I have to admit to preferring clerics doing the readings to laity. I don’t feel insulted (after all, how many clerics would be emotionally/or physically able to give birth and raise a child). We’re each different parts of His Body.

 

[DarkNight]

You misunderstand the sole point of my posts.
I am sorry that I do not know how to make myself clearer.

So I will leave this thread now.

Go with Love, Go with God.

 

[Father_JohnBerg]

You have been misinformed. Although some of what you said is partially true in the Ordinary Form of the Latin rite (notice i didn’t say Novus Ordo), in the Extra Ordinary Form of the Latin rite, this is not the case. The Priesthood is a holy calling to MEN and it can never be otherwise. As Father John Corapi once said, “If God made the Priesthood for men, who are we to decide that women…”

 

[mattwcu]

. I will not darken this door again and I probably will never attend a TLM. I have learned what I needed to learn about the mentality of those who do attend.

Um, I’m sorry but you cannot gain knowledge of the mentality of most TLM attendees by these few internet postings. Please reserve judgement against the majority of friendly traditional Catholics who are just looking for something a bit more serious than they encounter in their local ordinary form parishes.

You are correct to lean traditional. After all, it appears that most of our new priests and especially the Holy Father are doing that as well.

 

[AJV]

The lector is merely a stepping stone to the other orders though, and is primarily ceremonial. In ancient times this role may have been more involved, but that is not the case today with respect to the EF. Now I glanced quickly at the article at new advent, and it said that they are only two occasions when a lector may recite the epistle.

“The lector is still mentioned twice in the Roman Missal. In the rubrics at the beginning it is said that if Mass be sung without deacon and subdeacon a lector wearing a surplice may sing the Epistle in the usual place; but at the end he does not kiss the celebrant’s hand (Ritus celebr. Missam”, vi, 8). On Good Friday the morning service begins with a prophecy read by a lector at the place where the Epistle is usually read (first rubric on Good Friday)."

Now i’m not too sure as to how update these rubrics are. The set of rubrics at missa sancta.com certainly don’t mention this.

In any case, it seems that a lector may only recite the epistle at a sung mass, if there is no subdeacon present, and if the celebrant chooses to not recite the epistle himself.

Certainly seems like a fay cry from having a duty to recite the epistle.

Those are the pre-62 rubrics. The wording of the Ritus Servandus of 1962 was changed from “Si quandoque Celebrans cantat Missam sine Diacono et Subdiacono, Epistolam cantet in loco consueto aliquis Lector Superpelliceo indutus” to “in Missis cantatis Epistola a ministrante cani potest Epistola a ministrante cani potest”

The response in the OP (as an aside, is it Digest V or VI?) concerned the lay reader-commentators who read the readings over or in addition to the celebrant. Permission for lay people to read the readings directly * was only given universally in 1964/65 and this was usually for males. At that time, it was customary/preferred that the order for commentators be priest, cleric, male, female.

The question of women reading does not, therefore, seem to enter into a Traditional Mass, unless a commentator is employed (which I think is very uncommon). Even today, women cannot be instituted lectors.*

 

[PrayforMallory2]

I am not a liberal. I am an independent/moderate. I dislike bandwagons. I can think for myself. Not sure if you meant “lib” as in “liberal” or “lib” as in “feminist”. I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.

I put that quote in there just for you. I figured, hey, if this thread is going to be derailed by people pretending to be offended so they can get their kicks lecturing the rest of us Danny Tanner style, then maybe I ought to at least say something offensive first!

I don’t cook. My husband cooks, he enjoys it. My granddaughter and I have a good time together and it doesn’t involve making pies.

See you got to mention all of that! You wouldn’t have had the opportunity to do so if I hadn’t made the comment!

I read the OT and NT readings at my brothers wedding. My Baptist cousin read the OT and NT readings at mine in 1981. I am the Godmother to her daughter. She married a Catholic and both children were raised in the Church. The Diocese of Charleston didn’t have a problem with it, but I suppose you and your friend Dauphin will start weeping and wailing and knash your teeth.

See! You got to mention all of this! If I hadn’t made my comment, there would have been no way for your Baptist cousin to be a part of this thread! This is why threads get derailed, after all.

At 50, I am far from old. Old is a state of mind.

That just melts my little heart.

I know you long for the days when women didn’t vote, own land, have their own bank account, credit in their name, a driver’s license . How they oooo and ahhh over the lovely “iron” you gave them for Christmas, or the “vacuum cleaner” or the new “Frigidare” with an ice maker

I do love appliances!

Your issues have nothing to do with the Church, it’s about control and your personal contempt for women who dare to think for themselves.

Yes! You are exactly right! That’s why I married someone with “Dr.” before her name, so I could control her and force her to make pies for me while I grunt, scratch myself, and eat chili dogs.

This thread was intended to be on the topic of female readers at Tridentine Masses. Instead of the topic at hand, one casual comment (which was a comment on a situation prevalent all over the United States) gets blown out of proportion, just so some people can come on here spreading their particular model of Bambi Christianity, complete with Full-House-esque lecture.

 

[PrayforMallory2]

Sometimes, however the pantsuit is a lot better than shorts and T-shirt.

I’m a middle-age woman and I have to admit to preferring clerics doing the readings to laity. I don’t feel insulted (after all, how many clerics would be emotionally/or physically able to give birth and raise a child). We’re each different parts of His Body.

Ironically, I presented a model in which women COULD give the readings at Tridentine Masses. Then when the disciples of Bambi came and derailed the thread, my smart mouth couldn’t resist.

There’s nothing wrong with old ladies. Mother Angelica is an old lady. It’s this fake pc/gushy mushy pseudo-Christianity that’s so noxious, in my opinion.

 

[eelpis]

Ironically, I presented a model in which women COULD give the readings at Tridentine Masses. Then when the disciples of Bambi came and derailed the thread, my smart mouth couldn’t resist.

There’s nothing wrong with old ladies. Mother Angelica is an old lady. It’s this fake pc/gushy mushy pseudo-Christianity that’s so noxious, in my opinion.

You’re soo wrong, Bambi is most lethal.

 

[CradleCath]

Even if it were permitted, the idea of some old lady in a pantsuit waddling into the sanctuary to do the readings is so utterly foreign to the spirit of the liturgy, it just wouldn’t be feasible.

Though I despise pants suits & have never worn one…I am a lady & I am not young (though, neither am I old) …I agree with you totally. WHY can’t the laity just remain in the pews & pray the Mass???

You’d have difficulty finding a single woman in the congregation who’d want to do it.

 

[CradleCath]

Perhaps I should have been more explicit than just using bold & underline features.
Your discriptive statement …** some old lady in a pantsuit waddling** … is compltely offensive, made even more so since you are describing your view of women in general rather than one specific person.

We all meet spiritually beautiful men & women of all ages, sizes and gaits on our journey. It would be sorrowful to ignore a messsage because of such a bias against the messenger.

Go with Love, Go with God

Laugh Much??