Life after death........that is THE question

[GEddie]

One suggestion I’ve heard before is that if death is merely the end of life, then asking whether there is life after death is asking whether there is life after the end of life, which is nonsensical.

It is only nonsensical if we take as an assumption what we are trying to ascertain; namely, whether or not the “life” of the human body is the only “life” possible.

There is no mystery concerning death, physically. It is the (hideous) ending of biological human life. The breathing stops, eyes roll back into the head, limbs cease moving and become stiff and cold. There will be no further life in that body. No mystery there.

However, to say that any further life for the being once using the body, is “nonsensical”, does not follow. We have not established that the life in the natural human body is the only life the human mind can experience. That is, indeed, the question.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Gaber]

I believe there is a book called “Life after Life.” Kinda depends of what definition you are ascribing to the word in which instance. People tend to identify living as something to do with physical bodies and call that life. If we define life as the existence of the self-aware person, then there is life after life. Also during. I think some people believe before, also.

Yes, that is the first book that Danion Brinkley wrote after his experience with being struck by lightining. He went through all seven classic NDE stage and with greater intensity and duration than is usual, and with a great deal of retention, as well. In his second book, he, after being struck again by lighting, came to the same conclusion about the nature of “soul” that many Eastern and Western mystics have come to by other means. I of course include Catholic mystics with the Eastern ones, as the origin of our religion is Eastern, though there are some stunning examples, one in particular, of mystics in the US who are not of any particular denomination.

The consistency of conclusion across religious or non religious backgrounds in both NDEs and mysticism leads me to conclude that there is some innate “spiritual” structure in the make-up of humanity that is “pre-religious” as it is experienced in these cases without correlation to faith or cultural background. It may have to do with the idea that we are all made in the image and likeness of God. And it would, in my opinion, indicate that God is not partial to any particular religion in the matter of bestowing grace. It just may be that in Catholicism we want to make a bigger deal of it.

 

[timotheos]

i’m having trouble thinking this is real. seems so fantastic i just can’t believe it.
how do we believe in something so fantastic?

Itullian,

I am not surprised you question this, but it is because of the evil one who just cannot let the reality of something so great save our lives. You see, when Jesus was seen resurrected, hope for eternal life went from wishful thinking to reality. Many were joyfully martyred in the name of Christ, because hope itself took on a whole new meaning.

But the evil one was not going to let so many souls go to heaven this way. How does he attack our faith in the resurrection? He trivializes the whole idea. He confuses us about what it is. He reduces the afterlife to an extension of earthly life, complete with golf courses, rock and roll music, and parties. Then he promotes the idea that everyone is going there regardless of belief, because everyone has been given a free ticket.

And then we start picking it apart. If something so great requires nominal faith and no effort to get there, why bother with earthly life first; how can it be real? And so, we begin with Jesus physically rising from the dead, initially wiping away all doubt in life after death, and end up 2000 years later questioning this reality, calling it “fantastic”. Not because we haven’t heard the message, but because* its meaning has been viciously attacked*.

Be strong, Itullian. The truth is simple. It is a reality. Trust in Christ’s mercy.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

we won’t know it when we die unless there IS an afterlife, otherwise we’ll be non existant and know nothing…

again, please!
I do not know whether what I understood in what you meant…

 

[Gaber]

again, please!
I do not know whether what I understood in what you meant…

Good question. I’m thinking Itulian means that if you’re not there, there isn’t anyone to know or not know. It is an important question as well regarding how we ordinarlily beleive life, that is our individuality to be. It raises the question fo distinguishing awareness from consciousness itself as a principle. In a broader view, one that goes beyond “afterlife: yes or no?” this is an important consideration because it begins to explore what life and afterlife might be other than the survival of a personal pattern. It might well be something rather more magnificent. But it is very difficult to talk about in terms of a religion that tends to stop at mysticism and mosto of whose members don’t get much past the first level, for instnance, of understanding parables, which have a minimum of three levels of meaning, and maybe more. Remember, Jesus taught His desciples differently in private.

 

[GEddie]

Yes, that is the first book that Danion Brinkley wrote after his experience with being struck by lightining. He went through all seven classic NDE stage and with greater intensity and duration than is usual, and with a great deal of retention, as well. In his second book, he, after being struck again by lighting, came to the same conclusion about the nature of “soul” that many Eastern and Western mystics have come to by other means. I of course include Catholic mystics with the Eastern ones, as the origin of our religion is Eastern, though there are some stunning examples, one in particular, of mystics in the US who are not of any particular denomination.

The consistency of conclusion across religious or non religious backgrounds in both NDEs and mysticism leads me to conclude that there is some innate “spiritual” structure in the make-up of humanity that is “pre-religious” as it is experienced in these cases without correlation to faith or cultural background. It may have to do with the idea that we are all made in the image and likeness of God. And it would, in my opinion, indicate that God is not partial to any particular religion in the matter of bestowing grace. It just may be that in Catholicism we want to make a bigger deal of it.

No, Life after Life was not written by Dannion Brinkley; it was written in the 1970s by Dr. Moody, based on his work with medical resuscitations.

Of course, we identify “life” with the human body. Before we had our human bodies, we clearly were not alive. We also observe that the human body ceases being alive. But since life involves sensation and mind, we hope it can somehow piggyback a mechanism alternate to the lost body.

Gaber: I don’t much know what you mean. I am a nonphilosopher and proud of it. Instead of using jargon like “misconception that I and me are one”, would you mind using plain English?

ICXC NIKA

 

[Gaber]

No, Life after Life was not written by Dannion Brinkley; it was written in the 1970s by Dr. Moody, based on his work with medical resuscitations.

Of course, we identify “life” with the human body. Before we had our human bodies, we clearly were not alive. We also observe that the human body ceases being alive. But since life involves sensation and mind, we hope it can somehow piggyback a mechanism alternate to the lost body.

Gaber: I don’t much know what you mean. I am a nonphilosopher and proud of it. Instead of using jargon like “misconception that I and me are one”, would you mind using plain English?

ICXC NIKA

Thank you! I appreciate the correction. DB wrote Saved by the Light and a couple of similar titles.

“Piggyback” is an interesting term. My experience and cosmology hinge on a rather different idea than that of individual “souls,” but that sort of idea is included in it as a phase.

The “misconception that I and me are one”, refers to the verifiable consideration that the sense of “I” is permanent, while “me,” or “person,” is a temporal and mortal phenomenon, as indicated by the root of person, which is “mask” or “that which is sounded through.” The word has profound metaphysical implications.

 

[Qoeleth]

What we have now is not truly life. It is death, and the shadow of death. Once we are freed from this earthly death (which we call ‘life’), we will then have true Life. Our real life is hidden in Christ. St. Augustine: “This present existence should not be called life which leads to death, so much as a death which leads to life.”

 

[GEddie]

Thank you! I appreciate the correction. DB wrote Saved by the Light and a couple of similar titles.

“Piggyback” is an interesting term. My experience and cosmology hinge on a rather different idea than that of individual “souls,” but that sort of idea is included in it as a phase.

The “misconception that I and me are one”, refers to the verifiable consideration that the sense of “I” is permanent, while “me,” or “person,” is a temporal and mortal phenomenon, as indicated by the root of person, which is “mask” or “that which is sounded through.” The word has profound metaphysical implications.

Yeah, I figured as much, and I don’t buy it.

I and me refer to the same being, except that " I" is active voice, and " me " is passive. In this context, I live life, but death will happen to me.

ISTM that you reject the “individual soul” in favor of a “cosmic whole” or something like that. OK, I don’t agree, but I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree.

BTW, the Catholic sense of the word person is far different from a mask.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Good question. I’m thinking Itulian means that if you’re not there, there isn’t anyone to know or not know. It is an important question as well regarding how we ordinarlily beleive life, that is our individuality to be. It raises the question fo distinguishing awareness from consciousness itself as a principle. In a broader view, one that goes beyond “afterlife: yes or no?” this is an important consideration because it begins to explore what life and afterlife might be other than the survival of a personal pattern. It might well be something rather more magnificent. But it is very difficult to talk about in terms of a religion that tends to stop at mysticism and mosto of whose members don’t get much past the first level, for instnance, of understanding parables, which have a minimum of three levels of meaning, and maybe more. Remember, Jesus taught His desciples differently in private.

Well, you and I will go on living.
We just undressed our clothes, meaning, our body.

 

[Gaber]

Well, you and I will go on living.
We just undressed our clothes, meaning, our body.

Ys, that is well put. And it is always a surprise, even in a mirror, what that reveals, eh? And why not do it before that body dies? It is a much more fascinating and productive life that way. The world changes in an instant!

 

[Gaber]

Yeah, I figured as much, and I don’t buy it.

I and me refer to the same being, except that " I" is active voice, and " me " is passive. In this context, I live life, but death will happen to me.

ISTM that you reject the “individual soul” in favor of a “cosmic whole” or something like that. OK, I don’t agree, but I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree.

BTW, the Catholic sense of the word person is far different from a mask.

ICXC NIKA

Awwww… Ya had before I even said anything! Yes, I totally agree, GE, that is exactly what it looks like until in and instant the world changes for you. And it isn’t a matter of agreement. I’m giving you information. It deosn’t agree with your paradigm, so you have to disagree or re-build your paradigm. Y have neither a reason nor a basis for doing that yet, so you will use it till it is no longer sufficient. That moment may or may not arrive for you. For some it does. That’ all, and it is unfortunate that there iisn’t a publically acknowledged protocol in the exoteric Church that deals with that event. It is very very disturbing to face that and have to go on. But hey, it works!

 

[GEddie]

Awwww… Ya had before I even said anything! Yes, I totally agree, GE, that is exactly what it looks like until in and instant the world changes for you. And it isn’t a matter of agreement. I’m giving you information. It deosn’t agree with your paradigm, so you have to disagree or re-build your paradigm. Y have neither a reason nor a basis for doing that yet, so you will use it till it is no longer sufficient. That moment may or may not arrive for you. For some it does. That’ all, and it is unfortunate that there iisn’t a publically acknowledged protocol in the exoteric Church that deals with that event. It is very very disturbing to face that and have to go on. But hey, it works!

No, you don’t have the truth any more than I, as an individual, do. But the Church, as a body created by our LORD Himself, does, along with over 1900 years of collected wisdom. I think I’ll go with them.

Our LORD’s bodily resurrection eliminates the “cosmic wholes” idea anyway. HE came out of death as the same human being who went into it (with a mysteriously changed self/body/soma). I’ll put my trust in Him.

I don’t doubt that you had a real experience, possibly meditative in origin. But I have no more reason to trust it than you do to put faith in my dreams. Our LORD is far more convincing.

God Bless, anyhow, Shalom and ICXC NIKA.

 

[itullian]

maybe just because it seems too good to be true doesn’t mean it’s not true.
i guess

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Ys, that is well put. And it is always a surprise, even in a mirror, what that reveals, eh? And why not do it before that body dies? It is a much more fascinating and productive life that way. The world changes in an instant!

NO, This World NEEDS YOU…

 

[Gaber]

NO, This World NEEDS YOU…

Huh??? This world is “you.” Prove me wrong.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Huh??? This world is “you.” Prove me wrong.

I Do No underrrrssstand You!

 

[tonyrey]

maybe just because it seems too good to be true doesn’t mean it’s not true.
i guess

How can one decide when something seems too good?

 

[GEddie]

Well, you and I will go on living.
We just undressed our clothes, meaning, our body.

Body is far more than clothing, as our LORD Himself said.

Body does not just cover your mind or psyche; it breathes, smells, sees, moves and speaks for you. You can’t be alive without your body, as you would then be literally nobody.

Yet Saint Paul did compare them. He also expressed his desire to be “further clothed” in what he elsewhere called the pneumatikon soma.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Gaber]

I Do No underrrrssstand You!

Life isn’t “before” or “after” death. Life IS. “You” is the mental construct with which you identify your awareness, which wrong identification blinds you to the actual nature of your being. So it can be said on that basis that “you” are the “world” you wander through. You make it up according to the limitations and freedoms you accept for yourslf. For most people, even in their “spirituality” that is materialsitic in essence.