"Life Teen is Irreformable"

[RichT]

Tanais:

Mass is not about isolation of a particular group, be it teenagers, adults, etc. It is about the unity of all the Church, the Eucharists being the sacrament of unity. Neither is Mass about sharing of feelings and discussion. Both of these things you speak of, specialized groups and discussion, could be more easily achieved in a different setting. My parish does not have life teen Mass but it does have young adult groups and youth groups who have dinner some nights and meet every week or month or so. Mass is about worship, not discussion.

You have taken this out of context which is unfortunately to easy to do in a forum. Yes, you are correct, that is why parents are encouraged to attend. They are definately not forbidden to attend, nor are they required to attend. And yes, the teens are segregated into group discussions after the mass has taken place. Probably very similar to your youth groups that meet.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Tanais:

Mass is not about isolation of a particular group, be it teenagers, adults, etc. It is about the unity of all the Church, the Eucharists being the sacrament of unity. Neither is Mass about sharing of feelings and discussion. Both of these things you speak of, specialized groups and discussion, could be more easily achieved in a different setting. My parish does not have life teen Mass but it does have young adult groups and youth groups who have dinner some nights and meet every week or month or so. Mass is about worship, not discussion.

Tanais,

You are quite correct – the Mass is about unity, albeit unity in diversity (male, female, Jew, Greek, freeman and slave). Yet unity is not achieved by sitting together, it is achieved by uniting ourselves with the sacrifice offered by the priest. We are united in the Eucharist.

In the LifeTeen experience the Mass is not used as the place and time of discussion – that usually follows in what’s called LifeNight where the teens, under the supervision of the LifeTeen Core team and the parish youth minister (often with a priest or deacon in attendance).

For example, the last time I participated in LifeNight we had what’s called the “Hit Seat.” Nothing is off-limits and the kids are invited to ask any question they want of the deacon and/or priest. We will give them the straight teaching of the Catholic Church along with whatever explanation they may require. Questions have run the gamut from premarital sex to ordaining women to “how far can I go.” The kids also get (name removed by moderator)ut from their peers, and we have to make sure that (name removed by moderator)ut is consonant with the Church’s teaching.

Deacon Ed

 

[mark_a]

Lifeteen is ok. My kids prefer it only because they would rather go to Mass in the evening. My seven year old daughter actually prefers the regular Mass because it’s shorter. Boy are those life teen songs loooooong.

One of the Priests there does a good job of including apologetics, theology, and history in the homily.

 

[misericordie]

Karl Keating:

Leila Lawler looks at the recent decision to bring Life Teen’s Masses into conformity with the General Instruction on the Roman Missal and says, in essence, “It’s not enough. Life Teen, by its nature, can’t be reformed. It needs to be rejected.”

Here is the link to her column: cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=31139

The chief problems, she says, are that Life Teen Masses segregate teens from their families and cater to teens in terms of entertainment. Neither one, says Lawler, is good for the teens or for the Church.

Read her comments and post your reflections. Please limit your comments to what she has written. There have been other threads on Life Teen in general, and I’d like to see this one restricted to thoughts about her column.

I totally agree. However, I get the feeling that many still won’t get this. Again, Lifeteen masses ARE as the author of the article states, forms of entertainment. Why do many still refute this, and still don’t get it?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

misericordie:

I totally agree. However, I get the feeling that many still won’t get this. Again, Lifeteen masses ARE as the author of the article states, forms of entertainment. Why do many still refute this, and still don’t get it?

I, for one, “don’t get it.” I don’t agree that LifeTeen Masses are entertainment. How can being present at the foot of the cross when our Savior is dying be considered entertainment? Although there are clearly liturgical violations within LifeTeen as it was first written up, it was still a valid Mass and at a valid Mass we have the one, the same sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Yes, the music is more attuned to the muscial genre that speaks to the kids today. However, that does not mean it is not sacred music. Consider, for example, the Agnus Dei written by Matt Maher – traditional Latin words in a contemporary setting. And he’s not the only composer writing good liturgical music.

Entertainment shuts off the critical thinking element and feeds directly on the emotions. This is not a part of LifeTeen.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion as long as you do not call it fact.

Deacon Ed

 

[misericordie]

Deacon Ed:

I, for one, “don’t get it.” I don’t agree that LifeTeen Masses are entertainment. How can being present at the foot of the cross when our Savior is dying be considered entertainment? Although there are clearly liturgical violations within LifeTeen as it was first written up, it was still a valid Mass and at a valid Mass we have the one, the same sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Yes, the music is more attuned to the muscial genre that speaks to the kids today. However, that does not mean it is not sacred music. Consider, for example, the Agnus Dei written by Matt Maher – traditional Latin words in a contemporary setting. And he’s not the only composer writing good liturgical music.

Entertainment shuts off the critical thinking element and feeds directly on the emotions. This is not a part of LifeTeen.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion as long as you do not call it fact.

Deacon Ed

To state that life-teen masses don’t for the most part appeal to the emotion, is a matter of opinion. However, to be honest with you, any Mass that looses its sacrificial aspect, and departs in such grave ways from the rubrics, and rather seeks to make everyone there just FEEL good, is a form of entertainment, and this is a matter of, “fact.”

 

[Deacon_Ed]

misericordie:

To state that life-teen masses don’t for the most part appeal to the emotion, is a matter of opinion. However, to be honest with you, any Mass that looses its sacrificial aspect, and departs in such grave ways from the rubrics, and rather seeks to make everyone there just FEEL good, is a form of entertainment, and this is a matter of, “fact.”

I’ve never attended a LifeTeen Mass where the goal was “to make everyone there just FEEL good.” In fact, I’ve found that the preaching at most LifeTeen Masses does something entirely different – it forces everyone to examine their lives to see if they are really following the call of Jesus. I would agree, however, that if the Mass were reduced to such a banal level that it was little more than a “feel good encounter” then , in fact, it would not only be entertainment, but it would not be the Mass!

Deacon Ed

 

[MaryChelan]

Mandi:

Well said MaryChelan!

Speaking as the mother of 4 teenagers, I let my kids know right from day one. Mass was not about having a good time, it is about doing what God wants you to do. The 4 reasons way you go to Mass

1. Adoration - to love and worship God
2. Ask forgiveness for your sins and the sins of man kind
3. To make reparation - for above sins
4. Petition - To ask God for the things you desire

If you’re looking for a good time - go to the movies!

Thank you, Mandi, and amen!

 

[MaryChelan]

EENS:

Ha… I used to BE in Lifeteen… I realized after some time that it was not Catholic, and around that time frame, a friend of mine introduced me to the Latin Mass… enough said.

You hit the nail right on the head, friend! LifeTeen is not *Catholic!! *Amen!

 

[MaryChelan]

RichT:

Okay, so you have two examples. So what? My point is that so many people are complaining about something based off a couple of personal experiences, or even worse, no experiences at all. If it doesn’t work for you, that’s okay. Just don’t go. Otherwise, why spend so much energy on the topic at all? It works for many people, including many teen’s who otherwise would just fall through the cracks. It’s a start, you know, progress, not perfection.

Rich, why do you assume that many of us have only had a couple of personal experiences with LifeTeen, or no experiences at all? The reason many of us spend energy on this topic is because many of us are very, very concerned that LifeTeen is not really very Catholic. Yes, Deacon Ed claims that it is the same Mass because it is before the same Christ, but the LifeTeen Masses I have attended actually had no real procession with the Cross and there was absolutely nothing in that “Mass” that was anything remotely like Catholic Mass. Nothing!

You say LifeTeen works for many teens who otherwise would just fall through the cracks. How do you know? How do you know these teens are falling through the cracks? Your emphasis on “saving” teens is what truly spoils your argument in favor of LifeTeen, because Mass is simply not about rescuing people, teens or otherwise. It is for *Our Lord! *It is for us to worship *Our Lord! *

I would have no trouble with LifeTeen if it was simply a program for teens. That it says it is a Catholic Mass is what is so disturbing to me, because I saw nothing Catholic about it. And it certainly was not a Mass!

I do not want to see Catholicism diluted to make teens or any other group “comfortable.” One of the reasons Catholicism is so rich is because it has always remained true to Christ and to the Traditions. I did not see Catholicism in LifeTeen. I saw Protestantism.

 

[misericordie]

MaryChelan:

Rich, why do you assume that many of us have only had a couple of personal experiences with LifeTeen, or no experiences at all? The reason many of us spend energy on this topic is because many of us are very, very concerned that LifeTeen is not really very Catholic. Yes, Deacon Ed claims that it is the same Mass because it is before the same Christ, but the LifeTeen Masses I have attended actually had no real procession with the Cross and there was absolutely nothing in that “Mass” that was anything remotely like Catholic Mass. Nothing!

You say LifeTeen works for many teens who otherwise would just fall through the cracks. How do you know? How do you know these teens are falling through the cracks? Your emphasis on “saving” teens is what truly spoils your argument in favor of LifeTeen, because Mass is simply not about rescuing people, teens or otherwise. It is for *Our Lord! *It is for us to worship *Our Lord! *

I would have no trouble with LifeTeen if it was simply a program for teens. That it says it is a Catholic Mass is what is so disturbing to me, because I saw nothing Catholic about it. And it certainly was not a Mass!

I do not want to see Catholicism diluted to make teens or any other group “comfortable.” One of the reasons Catholicism is so rich is because it has always remained true to Christ and to the Traditions. I did not see Catholicism in LifeTeen. I saw Protestantism.

Now this is a good response. I totally agree with you here, and this is based on an objective argument, not feelings or emotion.

 

[RichT]

MaryChelan:

Rich, why do you assume that many of us have only had a couple of personal experiences with LifeTeen, or no experiences at all? The reason many of us spend energy on this topic is because many of us are very, very concerned that LifeTeen is not really very Catholic. Yes, Deacon Ed claims that it is the same Mass because it is before the same Christ, but the LifeTeen Masses I have attended actually had no real procession with the Cross and there was absolutely nothing in that “Mass” that was anything remotely like Catholic Mass. Nothing!

This proves my point. The masses I have been to do have the procession of the cross, along with every other piece of the liturgy that a sunday morning mass has. You along with the author are basing your opinions off very limited information. Also, you earlier stated the life teen mass was not catholic, now you state is not really very catholic. Is it or isn’t it?

MaryChelan:

You say LifeTeen works for many teens who otherwise would just fall through the cracks. How do you know? How do you know these teens are falling through the cracks? Your emphasis on “saving” teens is what truly spoils your argument in favor of LifeTeen, because Mass is simply not about rescuing people, teens or otherwise. It is for *Our Lord! *It is for us to worship Our Lord!

I never said the mass was for anybody, I simply said that because of the life teen mass, there are many teenagers involved in a church function that otherwise wouldn’t be.

MaryChelan:

I would have no trouble with LifeTeen if it was simply a program for teens. That it says it is a Catholic Mass is what is so disturbing to me, because I saw nothing Catholic about it. And it certainly was not a Mass!

I do not want to see Catholicism diluted to make teens or any other group “comfortable.” One of the reasons Catholicism is so rich is because it has always remained true to Christ and to the Traditions. I did not see Catholicism in LifeTeen. I saw Protestantism.

That’s to bad. I would encourage anyone who has had a bad experience to travel around to other parishes and see what they do at their life teen mass before you condemn the life teen movement. These abuses accur in life teen mases as well as regular masses, however, they don’t occur in all of them. So, don’t let a few rotten ones spoil the bunch so to speak.

 

[RichT]

misericordie:

Now this is a good response. I totally agree with you here, and this is based on an objective argument, not feelings or emotion.

What is with you people and feeling and emotions? God forbid I should feel something like a rediculous emotion at church. I have bad news for you, we all experience emotions at mass. Have you ever been moved to tears during the consecration? Have you ever actually FELT unworthy? I have, and from what your saying it sounds like that is wrong. Is that how you see it?

 

[Mandi]

RichT:

Okay, so you have two examples. So what? My point is that so many people are complaining about something based off a couple of personal experiences, or even worse, no experiences at all.

That was my point, to go back and forward with examples does not change anything. Truth is Truth, Fact is Fact. It is what the Catholic Church is based on. It is not about what you perfer or what makes you feel good, or about what does or does not bring me closer to God. etc. etc.

What is “PERFECT” is already known. If people reject that for what they prefer, that is their option but they they WILL be held accountable and this is not an opinion it is FACT.

If you feel you can pick and choose HOW you wish to worship God. Then something is definiately wrong. Even this whole idea, that someone in “The Catholic Church” thinks they have a legitimate leg to stand on regarding these notions points a finger to the “fruit of VII” Loss of unity and holy!

Send Your Angel to Holy Mass

O Holy Angel at my side, go to church for me.
Kneel in my place at Holy mass, where I desire to be.
At Offertory, in my stead, take all I am and owe.
And place it as a sacrifice, Upon the altar throne.
At Holy consecration’s bell, adore with seraph’s love.
My Jesus hidden in the Host, come down from Heaven above.
Then pray for those I dearly love, and those who cause me grief.
The Jesus’ Blood may cleanse all hearts, and suffering souls relieve.
And when the priest communion takes, Oh, bring my Lord to me.
That His sweet Heart may rest on mine, and I His temple be.
Pray that this Sacrifice Divine, may mankind’s sins efface.
Then bring me Jesus blessing home, the pledge of every grace.
AMEN

 

[baltobetsy]

MaryChelan:

And it certainly was not a Mass!

Now you’ve lost all your credibility.

Betsy

 

[system]

RichT:

What is with you people and feeling and emotions?

Rich, some of the responses directed your way don’t make much sense. “Fact vs. emotion” seems to be addressed at your posts - nobody should judge the “quality” of anyone’s posts, we need to discuss without being patronizing. And the “LT is not Catholic” folks are here simply to polarize the discussion.

Now, then… I think there’s a point you’re not seeing. You say

because of the life teen mass, there are many teenagers involved in a church function that otherwise wouldn’t be.

So therefore, if a parish had a Teen program with all the social and educational activities that you have at St. Timothy’s… BUT changed their LT Mass to be more “conventional” so that people of all ages could feel more comfortable, are you saying that many of the teens would quit coming? Or if a family moved to a diocese or parish that had no LT, the kids wouldn’t see the point of it all? If so, then that tells me that LT isn’t doing its job at all.

Let’s define what LT is. The main thrust should be education. If it’s mainly just a rock-n-roll Mass then yes, many of us have big problems with it. If it’s mainly just a “get kids off the streets” program, then again that’s missing the point. The main objective MUST be education.

I agree with those who say that Mass should never be about entertainment, or being made to feel “wanted” - to the extent that this happens. Mass is supposed to work the other way 'round - we are there to worship God. If the other LT activities (focusing on education) drive that message home, so much the better.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Again, I think we have to be careful to define our terms. LifeTeen is more than just a specially celebrated Mass. LifeTeen encompases LifeNight as well as other activities that are, clearly, geared to bring the Gospel to life for the teens.

There is no doubt that some parishes have poorly impletemented TeenLife, and others have done a good job. However, to condem the entire movement because of a single poorly implemented parish is foolhardy. If it’s not done right in your parish, look at another parish. See if what’s missing might not be the preference of the local priest rather than what LifeTeen calls for.

When I was in High School I recall the teen programs that were available to me. They were, for the most part, pretty bad (this was the period when the bishops were actually attending the Second Vatican Council). There was nothing to engage the whole person.

I find that LifeTeen, with its balance of emphasis on prayer and play does, in fact, get the whole person involved in the life of the Church.

Deacon Ed

 

[Ellen_Marie]

Mandi:

Teen Masses do NOT fall in the category of Holy, so they can NOT be part of “The Church of Christ”

This seems to be a rather broad generalization. You have mentioned this several times, yet none of your posts are specific as to how these Masses are not Holy. It is possible that the Life Teen Masses you have attended contained abuses; this does not mean that the Life Teen program is itself not appropriate. It is also possible that you just don’t like the music.

Please be specific in your criticisms, as opposed to stating that these Masses cannot be holy and they are not “PERFECT.” Claiming outright that all priests celebrating Mass in this setting are doing it simply to “entertain” teens is certainly unfair and untrue.

Ellen

 

[cestusdei]

I will answer as a priest who was associate at a Lifeteen parish. The article makes some excellent points that I made myself when the idea was mooted. My suggestion was to arrange one Mass with more contemporary music. In other words work with what we have. LT cannot work at most parishes which have limited resources. In my current parish we simply don’t have a band. And we risk losing them when they go to parishes that don’t do the LT thing. Next thing you know they are at the local Assembly of God church.

All that aside. It didn’t work. The teens were not really impressed. Many didn’t like it. The more active ones wanted a more traditional Mass with some Latin, but oh no we couldn’t do that.

We don’t need LT. What we need are good liturgies and preaching. We priests need to do a better job at presenting the gospel in our homilies. Jesus Christ must be the center of our preaching. Also we must be out there with the kids. I go to all the games etc. that I can. Mass must be prayed in a reverent manner. They know if the priest doesn’t believe it. We need to challenge them to live the gospel in a counter-cultural way. We need to work with parents. They can undo what we try to do at Mass and ccd. I have had parents tell their kids they don’t need confession and don’t believe in it. Hard to compete with that. Basically the whole Church needs to get on the ball. Starting with our bishops. Gimmicks will not work in the long run.

I am sure LT, in an adjusted way, has worked in some parishes and helped some kids. But I don’t see it as the future.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Dear Cestusdei:

Father, I don’t know how big your parish was, but my parish has 3600 registered families – that translates to nearly 15,000 people. Of those there are about 6,000 teens. Out of that number, perhaps 300 are involved in LifeTeen to some degree. We have two priests in our parish, plus a retired priest in reswidence who works in the Office of Canonical Services. No matter how hard they try, it’s impossible to be at a lot of ball games or other teen activities – although the pastor certainly tries, especially during football season when he can hit a large number of kids at a single event.

I don’t see LifeTeen as a gimmick, although it is equally mainstream. And, yes, kids can sense a fake a long way off. If we are not preaching what we believe then they know it and tune us out. On the other hand, if they know we believe what we are preaching they get fired up.

At an average Mass I get 7 to 10 minutes to preach – at LifeTeen I get 20 minutes. I can provide greater depth, more theology and catechesis at LifeTeen than I ever can at a “regular” Mass.

That said, I agree that LifeTeen is not the future – it’s simply one part of the whole. And that whole is the Catholic Church.

Deacon Ed