"Life Teen" Liturgy and it's destruction of centuries of Holy Tradition

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netmil(name removed by moderator):
Oh I get why you are so hostile! You have mistaken me for one of the other posters who is against modern praise music. I love modern praise music! We listen to it all the time!
So that’s the reason why you came in immediately with the Ultra-Traditionalist deal.
Really. I just got a new Michael Talbot CD. It’s great!
In our church it’s just not appropriate at Mass. We take it where it is, after litugy activities.
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But you still haven’t provided an intelligent reason for not having modern worship music in mass.
 
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MrS:
Is it really… is it because Fr Scanlon is retired? Or is it because Monahan is not around as much?

I have heard the same observation about a parish just south of me… that the numbers of “charismatics” seems to be much lower. The most common reason I hear is that many who proclaimed to be charismatic (wanted to be?) are now realizing they are not.

As for the thread topic… another parish near me seems to be changing in the music selections. They are replacing their Adoremus Hymal with something more Protestant (or so I have been told). And they are adding a “teen” Mass on Sundays.

Perhaps this is just another step in the progression of the parish… no longer have their Bible Study leader, their Adult Ed Moderator, their Adoration Coordinator, Mission leader, etc, etc.

So, the question is: What are the forms of Catholic education in force at Parishes that offer Life Teen? Who is in charge, and what texts/references etc are used? If they are present, are they too more progressive or more modern?
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My parish may be the one just south of you. Regardless, I have heard the same thing about the numbers of charismatics here. Actually, it isn’t that the number has decreased; the church has more than doubled in size in the last several years. The parish is a personal parish that was formed out of a charismatic community and so had a very strong charismatic identity. Many new people have been attracted to other aspects of parish life and worship and joined, but haven’t necessarily been charismatic.

While being charismatic is never a requirement, we’re working on helping people know what all it can be to live life in the Spirit.
 
Servus Pio XII:
Firstly, it shouldn’t be “novel”. Unfortunately, it is. I asked my blasted YOUTH DIRECTOR if she liked Gregorian Chant, and she said, well she had heard some people chanting ‘Jesus’ over and over, and if that was what I was talking about.

Then I related it to some fellows in my CATHOLIC school, and they said they had no idea what it was, but did I like Praise and Worship music.

Secondly, the Eucharist is the Mass, and the Mass is the Eucharist. It is not at all likely that people who are dancing and singing and clapping in worse fervor than the Baptists are likely to believe that the music is not the centre of the Mass. Personally, I believe the chant to be the only sort of music which cannot engage the listener in anything other than devout reverance, as it cannot be sung easily by the congregants, cannot be danced to, and is in LATIN. Therefore, they must be focused on the EUCHARIST, not on the “liturgy”.

Finally, I don’t care how much you doubt the historical accuracy. Ask any Jewish historian what the prayers of the apostles sounded like, and I guarantee he will tell you that:

a) It sounds like Gregorian Chant and…
b) We got it from them.
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Even if you are right about the origin of gregorian chant, which i doubt, that still does not prove that gregorian chant is superior. I can make the charge that when using chant you are making the mass about the style of music that ultra tradtionalists want to force on everyone rather than about the Eucharist.
 
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Topher:
But you still haven’t provided an intelligent reason for not having modern worship music in mass.
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But your reasoning is that because I don’t like modern worship music, I must love Gregorian Chant more than Christ. That must be another poster.
I love Modern Worship music!
 
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MrS:
Is it really… is it because Fr Scanlon is retired? Or is it because Monahan is not around as much?

I have heard the same observation about a parish just south of me… that the numbers of “charismatics” seems to be much lower. The most common reason I hear is that many who proclaimed to be charismatic (wanted to be?) are now realizing they are not.

As for the thread topic… another parish near me seems to be changing in the music selections. They are replacing their Adoremus Hymal with something more Protestant (or so I have been told). And they are adding a “teen” Mass on Sundays.

Perhaps this is just another step in the progression of the parish… no longer have their Bible Study leader, their Adult Ed Moderator, their Adoration Coordinator, Mission leader, etc, etc.

So, the question is: What are the forms of Catholic education in force at Parishes that offer Life Teen? Who is in charge, and what texts/references etc are used? If they are present, are they too more progressive or more modern?
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I heard that the shift is to a more traditional outlook.
Many of the students at the University are going traditional.
 
Look, all you utlra traditionalist. We know that you all perfect and sinless and that everyone else who doesn’t prefer gregorian chant will never reach you elevated levels of sanctity. I guess that gregorian chant is more sanctifying than the Sanctifying Grace that comes from the Sacraments.
But, on behalf of the poor sinners like myself in the thread, I will make the following points.
  1. Just because gregorian chant or “traditional” Catholic music is older does not make it better. This is not the early Church, and although our dorctrine remains the same, because truth is truth, our practices and devotions change over time.
  2. Gregorian chant and other “traditional” Catholic music is subject to charges similar to those that you are making against Life Teen.
    A) The esoteric feel of such music is subject to leading people into strange exstacies, trances, and weird hyperemotional experiences.
    B) Gregorian chant and classical music can be distracting because they are a novel to the modern ear and because the beauty of the music can easily become the focal point of the mass, rather than the holy sacrifice.
    C) The mass can become a show of musical talent by having such classical music or chant in mass, rather than the reverant sacrifice that it should be.
  3. Reverance is not defined by the style of music that one finds in a mass. That is absurd. Reverance comes from the disposition of those present at the mass. Are the peopel really worshiping Christ or are they at mass for cultural reason. Do they recieve the Eucharist in a state of Grace. Are they humble and contrite. Do they genuflect to the Eucharist in the Tabernacle out of a heart of worship or out of habbit. Are the people looking for an emotional experience, to “get fed” or they at mass to give God the worship he deserves? That is how one determines reverence.
  4. Life Teen does not equal liturgical abuse. My church follows the girm in great detail, even at the Life Teen mass.
  5. Emotions are not evil, they just need to be governed by reason.
  6. Life Teen is a very orthodox organization, comitted to only teaching the the actual teachings of Holy Mother Church.
  7. Gregroian chant can be considered just some trick to get people who like old music to mass just like you consider life teen music a gimmick.
  8. If something gets a person to mass, then great. Then they will have the opportunity to hear the Gospel and the teachings of the Church. By being at mass they put themselves right in the grace (maybe not sanctifying if they are in mortal sin) of God. Perhaps it will lead to repentence.
  9. Many churches that utilize the Life Teen program have seen the awsome fruit of helping teenagers to become orthodox, holy, and God loving young men and women.
  10. Some churches that use life teen are not great but some churches that have ultra tradtional masses are not great.
  11. Being orthodox (in line with the teachings of the Church) does not require that one love everything that is old in style.
  12. Just because some one thinks life teen is good, does not mean that that person is liberal in their theology or that they believe in a faith based on emotions.
  13. Not everyone who thinks Life Teen is good thinks that the Charismatic movement is good.
  14. Being an ultra tradtionalist does not make you more holy or a better Catholic than anyone else. Usually it just makes you prideful.
  15. Just because one is in favor of the Life Teen program does not mean that that person does not prefer more tradtional masses. My favorite Divine Liturgy is that of the Byzantine Rite which is very very traditional. I just don’t think that everyone need be forced into that and I believe that Life Teen has its place.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
But your reasoning is that because I don’t like modern worship music, I must love Gregorian Chant more than Christ. That must be another poster.
I love Modern Worship music!
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I guess that you havn’t read my post. My position is that ultra tradtionalists at least APPEAR to be more concerned with music than with Christ. This is why. They attack a good orthodox Catholic organization that helps teens to come to a solid faith in the teachings of Christ’s Church, and organization that leads teens to Christ, is centered around Christ in the Eucharist, and teaches the truth about Christ; and they attack this organization just because they don’t like that particular program’s style and music. That is most certainly putting one’s taste in music before Christ.
And as for yuor loving modern worship music. Give me a break. This whole thread has been one big assault on Life Teen for having modern worship music at mass.
 
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Topher:
I guess that you havn’t read my post. My position is that ultra tradtionalists at least APPEAR to be more concerned with music than with Christ. This is why. They attack a good orthodox Catholic organization that helps teens to come to a solid faith in the teachings of Christ’s Church, and organization that leads teens to Christ, is centered around Christ in the Eucharist, and teaches the truth about Christ; and they attack this organization just because they don’t like that particular program’s style and music. That is most certainly putting one’s taste in music before Christ.
And as for yuor loving modern worship music. Give me a break. This whole thread has been one big assault on Life Teen for having modern worship music at mass.
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Well, you must be mistaking me for someone else because my first post to this thread was #152. I do not speak for anyone but myself, including the 151 before me.
You however responded to one of my posts by stating this…

“Come back and talk when your child is older and has rejected the Catholic faith because you were more concerned with gregorian chant than with Christ.”

There is no APPEAR to this statement, especially when I never mentioned Gregorian Chant.

And the really funny thing is that I didn’t mention Life Teen until I talked to the young people at my church. I gave my position about what I personally feel in my church and for my children.
So I’m sure that it was someone else that you had this hostility towards.
God bless!
 
OK, I’d like to issue an invitation. I invite all of you to attend the Life Teen Mass at my parish, so you can see an example of Life Teen being done correctly. We have our Life Teen Mass every Saturday at 5:30 PM. I think you’ll find that we stick to Church teachings and rules, and that the people attending, both teens and adults, are there to worship God.
 
What music did Jesus like when He was here on earth?

I think they sang a few psalms at the last super.
 
tom.wineman said:
What music did Jesus like when He was here on earth?

I think they sang a few psalms at the last super.
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Well, I don’t think it’s recorded anywhere what music Jesus liked. Yes, they sang Psalms at the Last Supper, but we don’t know what they sounded like. They may have been in a musical style that was common at that time.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Well, you must be mistaking me for someone else because my first post to this thread was #152. I do not speak for anyone but myself, including the 151 before me.
You however responded to one of my posts by stating this…

“Come back and talk when your child is older and has rejected the Catholic faith because you were more concerned with gregorian chant than with Christ.”

There is no APPEAR to this statement, especially when I never mentioned Gregorian Chant.

And the really funny thing is that I didn’t mention Life Teen until I talked to the young people at my church. I gave my position about what I personally feel in my church and for my children.
So I’m sure that it was someone else that you had this hostility towards.
God bless!
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But you did say that you have a problem with modern worship in mass and that is absurd.
 
tom.wineman said:
What music did Jesus like when He was here on earth?

I think they sang a few psalms at the last super.
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He probably liked Jewish music, since that was the music of his culture.
 
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Prometheum_x:
He probably liked Jewish music, since that was the music of his culture.
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probably. The music that the psalms were set to often included harps and other stringed insturments as it says in the book of Psalms. Not quite gregorian chant now is it? Guess no one was ever reverant until musical insturments were thrown out huh. :rotfl:
Come on. We are not the protestant denomination know as “the Church of Christ”.
 
Topher my friend, I have read and re-read many of your posts. You are generally articulate but you have a serious flaw in your posts. You seem to take a position and vociferously defend that position. Nothing wrong with that. That is if the position is being attacked. The problem is you often defend your position by attacking posters who have not attacked your position in any way shape or form. You have done it to me and to others. In my case it is blatantly obvious that you did not even read my posts.

Please don’t take this as an attack, it isn’t, but you really need to grow up a little. I realize that you are very young, at least if the info in your profile is correct 🙂 , but you should try to be a little less judgemental. Just because someone doesn’t agree with your position on music, which seems to be your big concern, doesn’t give you the right to start traditional bashing all over the place. Do you think or feel that Traditionalists are your enemies? Is that why you are so hostile towards them?

Speaking as someone who has both interviewed and interrogated literally thousands of people over the years, I can assure you of one thing. When a person feels cornered, they tend to lash out viciously at those who they feel are either threatening them or are against them in any way. You my friend have done this repeatedly. I don’t think anyone on this forum is your enemy and no one is threatening you. So why get so defensive? 🙂

I in no way doubt your sincerity and your devotion to Christ, but you really should try to look at things in a more balanced way, and at least respond to the posts individually, insted of making these rash leaps to judgement of others motives and positions.

You will be in my prayers.
 
Michael Welter:
OK, I’d like to issue an invitation. I invite all of you to attend the Life Teen Mass at my parish, so you can see an example of Life Teen being done correctly. We have our Life Teen Mass every Saturday at 5:30 PM. I think you’ll find that we stick to Church teachings and rules, and that the people attending, both teens and adults, are there to worship God.
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I will attend one. You are not too far from me.
 
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Topher:
I guess that you havn’t read my post. My position is that ultra tradtionalists at least APPEAR to be more concerned with music than with Christ. This is why. They attack a good orthodox Catholic organization that helps teens to come to a solid faith in the teachings of Christ’s Church, and organization that leads teens to Christ, is centered around Christ in the Eucharist, and teaches the truth about Christ; and they attack this organization just because they don’t like that particular program’s style and music. That is most certainly putting one’s taste in music before Christ.
And as for yuor loving modern worship music. Give me a break. This whole thread has been one big assault on Life Teen for having modern worship music at mass.
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Actually YOU seem to be the one more concerned with music than with Christ. Re-read your posts.
 
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Topher:
And you can equally strange emotional and physical reactions to gregroian chant because of its esoteric feel. Fruthermore, the modern novelty of gregorian chant (it is a novelty to most because it is oustide of their norm) can be a distraction in mass just as much as modern worship music can be. You know buddhist munks use chant too. Does that make chant evil?
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Quite right. And again you prove that you do not read the posts. I have never defended Gregorian Chant, nor do I feel it superior to anything. In fact, I have never attacked the music at any type of Mass. I merely pointed out that Protestant Churches use music, handclapping etc, as a way to invoke an emotional response because they have no real message to give the people. I stand by that statement.

Yes, chants can be used for the same reason. .In fact any music can, although highly rhythmatic music actually works best.

My whole reason for even weighing in on this board had to do with the abuses of the Mass that I have seen at these so-called Life Teen things. It really had nothing to do with music, which I feel is a very, very minor and virtually unnecessary part of the Mass.
 
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