"Life Teen" Liturgy and it's destruction of centuries of Holy Tradition

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Topher:
But you did say that you have a problem with modern worship in mass and that is absurd.
If you point out my direct quote of stating that I have a problem with modern worship music in YOUR mass, I will apologize.
I said in MY mass, in MY church. Maybe you misread my posts or confused me with another poster.

No problem, God Bless!
 
It seems that the issue lie in having “rock” music at Mass. And it seems like most, if not all, of us agree that “rock” music is inappropriate for Mass. Contemporary praise & worship music, if done reverently, is just fine. Some people prefer other styles, and that’s fine.
 
Michael Welter:
It seems that the issue lie in having “rock” music at Mass. And it seems like most, if not all, of us agree that “rock” music is inappropriate for Mass. Contemporary praise & worship music, if done reverently, is just fine. Some people prefer other styles, and that’s fine.
I think that you’ve it the nail on the head.
Not only that but just because I like “Historically Catholic” music, doesn’t mean that I think you should NOT have yours. There is a place for all of us.
The key words in your quote are, “if done reverently”. Metallica is not what you are talking about.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
If you point out my direct quote of stating that I have a problem with modern worship music in YOUR mass, I will apologize.
I said in MY mass, in MY church. Maybe you misread my posts or confused me with another poster.

No problem, God Bless!
OH. Then I have no disagreement with you. Forgive me for misunderstanding me. But please do not refer to Life Teen Masses as “Jesus Parties” because they are not. It is the most Holy Sacrifice of the mass.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
The key words in your quote are, “if done reverently”. Metallica is not what you are talking about.
:amen: :blessyou:
 
Quote:
(I tell you where it come from after you read it 😉 )

“Sacred music, being an intergral part of the liturgy, is directed to the general object of this liturgy, namely, the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. It helps to increase the beauty and spendor of the ceremonies of the Church, and since its chief duty is to clothe the liturgical text, which is presented to the understanding of the fatihful, with suitable melody, its object is to make that text more efficacious, so that the faithful through this means may be the more roused to devotion, and better disposed to gather to themselves the fruits of grace which come from the celebration of the sacred mysteries.” (my emphasis)

Does everyone agree that this should be the object of the music of the Mass? (this is not a rhetorical question… I really want to know!)
 
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Consecrated:
Quote:
(I tell you where it come from after you read it 😉 )

“Sacred music, being an intergral part of the liturgy, is directed to the general object of this liturgy, namely, the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. It helps to increase the beauty and spendor of the ceremonies of the Church, and since its chief duty is to clothe the liturgical text, which is presented to the understanding of the fatihful, with suitable melody, its object is to make that text more efficacious, so that the faithful through this means may be the more roused to devotion, and better disposed to gather to themselves the fruits of grace which come from the celebration of the sacred mysteries.” (my emphasis)

Does everyone agree that this should be the object of the music of the Mass? (this is not a rhetorical question… I really want to know!)
Yes
 
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Consecrated:
Quote:
(I tell you where it come from after you read it 😉 )

“Sacred music, being an intergral part of the liturgy, is directed to the general object of this liturgy, namely, the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. It helps to increase the beauty and spendor of the ceremonies of the Church, and since its chief duty is to clothe the liturgical text, which is presented to the understanding of the fatihful, with suitable melody, its object is to make that text more efficacious, so that the faithful through this means may be the more roused to devotion, and better disposed to gather to themselves the fruits of grace which come from the celebration of the sacred mysteries.” (my emphasis)

Does everyone agree that this should be the object of the music of the Mass? (this is not a rhetorical question… I really want to know!)
Absolutely.
 
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Topher:
OH. Then I have no disagreement with you. Forgive me for misunderstanding me. But please do not refer to Life Teen Masses as “Jesus Parties” because they are not. It is the most Holy Sacrifice of the mass.
Really, I called the “mass” at my old church a Jesus party. I’m telling you, my friend, you would cringe if you were there. The focus was on the “communal meal”. I had to “unteach” everything that they were teaching my girls in Religious Formation. AND I volunteered to be a teaching assistant, it was scary!

The year that we did Mardi Gras, (they wanted to walk through the church with noise makers until one of the moms had a rightful fit) and nary a word about Ash Wednesday, it was really awful.
I thank the Dear Lord now that I am where I am.

There is a place for all things Catholic. That wasn’t near it!

(I was just trying to say that my kids like historically Catholic music. Next time I’ll read the WHOLE thread before I jump in :))
 
Thanks to Topher and Prometheum for responding to my question!
Michael Welter:
It seems that the issue lie in having “rock” music at Mass. And it seems like most, if not all, of us agree that “rock” music is inappropriate for Mass. Contemporary praise & worship music, if done reverently, is just fine. Some people prefer other styles, and that’s fine.
Everyone agrees that the objective of the music is to rouse the faithful to better devotion, that they may gather more of the fruits and graces available.

Everyone agrees that the music must be reverent, or holy.

Quote, from the same source as in my post #305 above:
“Sacred music must therefore eminiently posess the qualities which belong to the liturgical rites, especially holiness and beauty, from which its other characteristic, universality, will follow spontaneously.” (my emphasis)

What, then, is the standard of reverence, of holiness? If you can say that “such and such song” is more reverent than “such and such song”, there must be a standard by which we judge, right?

** What makes sacred music sacred? What makes “rock” music inappropriate?**

Is such a standard really only relative to this or that person’s disposition?

Should the music of the Mass take its tone from the Mass itself (that is, should it “possess the qualities which belong to the liturgical rites”)?
Or should it take its tone from the people attending the Mass?

(again, not rhetorical questions… anyone have any ideas?)

Be at peace in the Heart of Mary
 
I suppose I should at least say about my “source” 😛 that it is a universally accepted authority on Church liturgy, quotes taken from a document written in last century.

👍
 
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Consecrated:
What, then, is the standard of reverence, of holiness? If you can say that “such and such song” is more reverent than “such and such song”, there must be a standard by which we judge, right?

** What makes sacred music sacred? What makes “rock” music inappropriate?**

Is such a standard really only relative to this or that person’s disposition?

Should the music of the Mass take its tone from the Mass itself (that is, should it “possess the qualities which belong to the liturgical rites”)?
Or should it take its tone from the people attending the Mass?
Excellent questions. I do not have an answer for them. Obviously, there is some music we can all generally agree is not sacred due to filthy lyrics. I cannot fathom how heavy metal or even hard rock would be fitting for the Mass, but I cannot objectively say the music is unholy. Beyond that, I generally leave it to personal preference.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Really, I called the “mass” at my old church a Jesus party. I’m telling you, my friend, you would cringe if you were there. The focus was on the “communal meal”. I had to “unteach” everything that they were teaching my girls in Religious Formation. AND I volunteered to be a teaching assistant, it was scary!

The year that we did Mardi Gras, (they wanted to walk through the church with noise makers until one of the moms had a rightful fit) and nary a word about Ash Wednesday, it was really awful.
I thank the Dear Lord now that I am where I am.

There is a place for all things Catholic. That wasn’t near it!

(I was just trying to say that my kids like historically Catholic music. Next time I’ll read the WHOLE thread before I jump in :))
Wow. Sounds like you must have had a horrible experience at your old church. It is still shocking that priests allow things like that to happy at the Divine Liturgy. It is almost as if these priests have no idea what the mass is all about. God bless you for getting your family out of that mess. I guess that I come from a very different experience. My parish is very very orthodox. The priests have solidly formed the parish in the teachings holy mother church. We still have high mass on sunday morning with all the smells and the bells. Confession lines are a mile long at my parish and even the life teen mass that we have is very very liturgically correct, even with all of the modern worship music. I feel very blessed to have such a solid parish giving me a very real experience of the Catholic faith. And I mourn for those who have to have the kind of experience that you have had. But I see a change coming. People are getting sick of watered down Catholicism. People my age are starting to demand the truth and demand the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith of our Fathers. People my age are returning to the sacaraments, to reading the saints and the Church fathers. We are studying the scriptures, and the documents of the Church. We are begining to see that the liberal nonsense that was fed to us in religious education is not at all what the Catholic faith is and we want orthodoxy again. Have faith, I agree with the Holy Father. We are headed for a smaller but more purified Church. The liberals will soon see this and begin to leave or convert. The line is drawn in the sand, people are either with Christ and his Church or they are against it. God bless you.
 
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Consecrated:
Thanks to Topher and Prometheum for responding to my question!

Everyone agrees that the objective of the music is to rouse the faithful to better devotion, that they may gather more of the fruits and graces available.

Everyone agrees that the music must be reverent, or holy.

Quote, from the same source as in my post #305 above:
“Sacred music must therefore eminiently posess the qualities which belong to the liturgical rites, especially holiness and beauty, from which its other characteristic, universality, will follow spontaneously.” (my emphasis)

What, then, is the standard of reverence, of holiness? If you can say that “such and such song” is more reverent than “such and such song”, there must be a standard by which we judge, right?

What makes sacred music sacred? What makes “rock” music inappropriate?

Is such a standard really only relative to this or that person’s disposition?

Should the music of the Mass take its tone from the Mass itself (that is, should it “possess the qualities which belong to the liturgical rites”)?
Or should it take its tone from the people attending the Mass?

(again, not rhetorical questions… anyone have any ideas?)

Be at peace in the Heart of Mary
I have read the various things you are quoting, but I don’t remember which one out of several possible documents it is. I’ll keep the mystique and won’t throw out any names.

In answer to your questions:

What is the standard of reverence? I’m not really sure that there is an objective standard in terms of the inherent qualities of the music itself.

What makes sacred music sacred? It is difficult to define “sacred” without the context of “secular”. According to the dictionary (merriamwebster.com), sacred is defined thus:

**
1 a : dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity <a tree sacred to the gods> b : devoted exclusively to one service or use (as of a person or purpose) <a fund sacred to charity>
2 a : worthy of religious veneration : HOLY b : entitled to reverence and respect
3 : of or relating to religion : not secular or profane <sacred music>

The only definition that seems to have anything to do with the qualities of the object is #2, but that doesn’t really seem to make much sense in regards to sacred music. Music isn’t sacred in the same way that an altar, or relic, or some other such thing is. We don’t give the music itself religious veneration.

The other two definitions have to do more with how something is used. I would contend that it is the way in which music is used that determines whether or not it is sacred.

For example, one time when I was playing music for mass, we played a very nice song. There was one part of the song that had a chord pattern similar to that of a U2 song, and the music leader decided to use a melodic line directly from the song. . . and everybody in the church knew it, and it was quite inappropriate in my opinion. There wasn’t anything in the music itself that made it inherently inappropriate. Rather, it was inappropriate due to its overwhelming identification with a purely secular thing.

In answer to your last question, it should primarily take its tone from the liturgy, but there are similar documents to the one you are quoting that indicate that this should be done with some reference to the culture of the people. This is particularly the true when in mission lands – the traditional western musical forms may be so strange to their ears that it truly is a hindrance and not a help.

But those are two different things. Tone in this case has to do with the attitude of the music, not the actual sound. In the United States, I really can’t imagine using jazz music at mass. This is not because I can’t imagine using trumpets, saxophones, or pentatonic and blues scales, but because right now in our culture (and really since the advent of jazz as a style), jazz has a very secular significance. In our culture, those jazz forms have a very earthy, shallow, sensual-to-the-point-of-erotic significance and are generally devoid of the sacred. So does Elvis Presley style rock 'n roll.

What we must not, cannot do, is say, “Well, in the 50’s and 60’s, the word “rock” was used to describe Elvis Presley style music. Therefore, when the word “rock” is used to day, it must mean exactly the same thing.”

This last section wasn’t intended to be in bold. There’s some underlying formatting that I couldn’t change.
**
 
As an orthodox liturgical musician (acoustic guitarist and cantor) for 33 years, there are over 40 years of good contemporary Catholic music for Mass. I gave some examples in my earlier post (#128) of liturgical music with arrangements for guitar/piano/flute and other instruments.

It is very easy to slip into a loud, distracting, and irreverent arrangement of a perfectly good liturgical song, or pick a song that is not liturgical at all. The danger in using contemporary worship music is to do it at Mass like it’s done on the CD. Usually, the songs have to be modified to be liturgically appropriate. Also, lots of Protestant “worship” music is performance-oriented, so we avoid those songs (although there are a few good songs that can be done at Mass). A clue to this “performance” problem is that there is clapping after the “worship” song on the live CD.

I would suggest some important characteristics when choosing/doing contemporary worship music for Mass:
  1. Worship songs should help people to pray.
  2. Lyrics should be “directed to God” rather than “about God” (as if He wasn’t with us at Mass).
  3. Lyrics should not contradict Church teachings or orthodox Catholic theology.
  4. The type of sound or the song’s arrangement should not draw attention to the musicians (e.g. loud lead guitar riffs, or excessive drum parts, or distracting flute harmonies).
  5. Worship songs at Mass should help one to encounter God, to draw one’s heart to God, to become more aware of His presence in the worship space.
  6. Musicians should be open to the working of the Holy Spirit, and recognize that we are just God’s instruments.
  7. It’s not about the musicians, but serving the people and God
  8. Soft acoustic or electro-acoustic guitars are perferred to loud electric guitars (electric bass is fine). The music must be done in a reverent and holy manner.
  9. Select music that reflects the Scripture readings/psalm of the day. Lot’s of contemporary worship music lyrics, especially the psalm-songs, are taken directly from Scripture.
  10. The musicians should pray before Mass that the Holy Spirit will use the music to touch people’s hearts and increase their love of God.
I have seen many young people, and even some older people like me, come to experience Christ through good contemporary music at Mass. Let’s get them to Mass, keep them coming, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
 
Excellent post, I disagree with only one thing:
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CanoeCamper55:
  1. Lyrics should be “directed to God” rather than “about God” (as if He wasn’t with us at Mass).
Catholic music from antiquity has been a mix of songs with God in the second person and God in the third person. The Psalms are not always directed to God, nor are many other song-prayers recorded in the Scriptures. See Revelation for some examples.
 
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Prometheum_x:
Excellent post, I disagree with only one thing:

Catholic music from antiquity has been a mix of songs with God in the second person and God in the third person. The Psalms are not always directed to God, nor are many other song-prayers recorded in the Scriptures. See Revelation for some examples.
Yes, you are right. But, I am a bit more careful when selecting those types of songs, because the lyrics may lead some people to think that God is not here with us. #2 is more of a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. Thanks for clarifying…
 
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CanoeCamper55:
Yes, you are right. But, I am a bit more careful when selecting those types of songs, because the lyrics may lead some people to think that God is not here with us. #2 is more of a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. Thanks for clarifying…
True enough. As a corrolary to #2, I try to be careful in the other direction as well. . . it is easy to develop a purely “me and Jesus” mentality with an all songs directed towards God policy (personal experience). Songs about God in the 3rd person and songs with an aspect of “we and Jesus” help to prevent that.
 
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Prometheum_x:
True enough. As a corrolary to #2, I try to be careful in the other direction as well. . . it is easy to develop a purely “me and Jesus” mentality with an all songs directed towards God policy (personal experience). Songs about God in the 3rd person and songs with an aspect of “we and Jesus” help to prevent that.
Very good points! I think we are in agreement in this area.

Sometimes Psalm 102:2 might work well: “O Lord, hear my prayer, and let my cry come to you”. (although I might prefer “O Lord, hear our prayer…”, that’s the Psalm)

At other times, Psalm 100:1-2 may fit better: “Sing joyfully to the Lord, all you lands; serve the Lord with gladness; come before him with joyful song”.
 
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