"Life Teen" Liturgy and it's destruction of centuries of Holy Tradition

[netmilsmom]

MrS:

The problem is… we need to remember (or learn if you never knew) that the liturgy is all supposed to be about Him. When we think it is about us… the music changes, the postures change, the entertainment is emphasized…etc.

Community is great… for the coffee and donuts afterwards.

Church (Luther’s definition) is the place where the sacraments are duly administered, and where we (WE) worship God (GOD).

And I love that our choir knows the difference. In fact, the choir director pushes just that. They are actually helping others to praise God, not entertaining the crowd.
It’s not about everyone watching them. They are off to the side, almost behind the organ.
It’s the beauty of those little girls singing about Mary or singing about the Eucharist.
I don’t really remember the word “I” in any one of their songs. It’s always “You”.

 

[netmilsmom]

Michael Welter:

How about anything written in the last 5 years.

Hmmmm, good question.
In our regular Holy Mass, I would have to say no.
In our children’s choir, I’m not sure.

 

[MrS]

Michael Welter:

I think from God’s perspective, it’s all about us. He instituted the Eucharist for our benefit. If not for us, there would be no need for the Eucharist.

How about anything written in the last 5 years.

This is a common mistake made. Let me use creation as an example. Did God make us because He loves us? No. We did not exist before He made us… the love is all His and it was He choice to make us to love Him… it is all about Him. Everything, including the Eucharist is about Him. It is His way of letting us love Him.

 

[Michael_Welter]

MrS:

This is a common mistake made. Let me use creation as an example. Did God make us because He loves us? No. We did not exist before He made us… the love is all His and it was He choice to make us to love Him… it is all about Him. Everything, including the Eucharist is about Him. It is His way of letting us love Him.

So, if He had never created us, He still would have instituted the Eucharist? For the angels, perhaps? Can you refference a Church document for me to read?
netmil(name removed by moderator):

Hmmmm, good question.
In our regular Holy Mass, I would have to say no.
In our children’s choir, I’m not sure.

I have nothing against the old music, but I also insist on obeying the Biblical command to “Sing a new song unto the Lord”.

 

[MrS]

Michael Welter:

So, if He had never created us, He still would have instituted the Eucharist? For the angels, perhaps? Can you refference a Church document for me to read?

I have nothing against the old music, but I also insist on obeying the Biblical command to “Sing a new song unto the Lord”.

Aquinas would be a good start.

The Eucharist is God. It is His gift to us, not the angels. It is Jesus Christ…body, blood, soul, and divinity. Had He not created mankind, only the soul and divinity would have continued. The angels already had that, yes?

 

[netmilsmom]

Michael Welter:

I have nothing against the old music, but I also insist on obeying the Biblical command to “Sing a new song unto the Lord”.

LOL!
In the timeline of God, how do we know what’s new?

 

[Michael_Welter]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

LOL!
In the timeline of God, how do we know what’s new?

Well, since He was talking to us, and He continues to give people the gift of writing new songs, I have to believe that He was referring to “new” for us.

 

[netmilsmom]

Michael Welter:

Well, since He was talking to us, and He continues to give people the gift of writing new songs, I have to believe that He was referring to “new” for us.

Too true!
However, we sing lots of new songs, just not at Holy Mass.

You should have heard the CD for our K for J Summertime Blast (VBS).
We still jam to that one in our car!

 

[palmas85]

Michael Welter:

I have nothing against the old music, but I also insist on obeying the Biblical command to “Sing a new song unto the Lord”.

A question, do you obey all Biblical commands, or do you obey the ones that appeal to you personally?

 

[Michael_Welter]

palmas85:

A question, do you obey all Biblical commands, or do you obey the ones that appeal to you personally?

Actually, neither. I obey (or try to) those that apply to me personally. For example, I don’t obey those that are given for priests, or women.

How about you?

 

[Topher]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Whoa!
Were did you get that I’m an Ulta-Trad?

Our Holy Mass is far from boring but it is not a Jesus party either. We play hard and pray hard. Our kids know the difference.
We sing the “Historically Catholic” songs. We leave the “Happy Catholic” songs for our Kids for Jesus program.

With participation, Latin songs are wonderful.
My daughters can sing songs in Slovak, Latin, Polish, Japanese and English. They are 5 & 7.
And the problem is?

That is just lovely. But the rest of us in the real world, the one created by Christ, probably won’t spend the time teaching them to sing in five different langauges. If I have kids I will be far too busy teaching them to follow Christ’s commandments and the teachings of the Church to busy my self with slovak.
And by the way. I know that the mass is not some “Jesus Party”. Rather it is his holy sacrifice. That doesn’t mean that our aime should be to make it borring.

 

[Topher]

Michael Welter:

I think from God’s perspective, it’s all about us. He instituted the Eucharist for our benefit. If not for us, there would be no need for the Eucharist.

How about anything written in the last 5 years.

I would have to disagree to a point. The mass was created to worship God. Of course it was created for US to do that. But the point is that the mass is supposed to be Cristocentric, not anthrocentric (man-centered) or gregorian chant centered, or classical music center, or new music centered. The whole point is JESUS.

 

[Topher]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Hmmmm, good question.
In our regular Holy Mass, I would have to say no.
In our children’s choir, I’m not sure.

Modernists have the problem that they reject all tradition. Ultratraditionalists have the problem of rejecting evertying new even if it is not heretical.

 

[Topher]

palmas85:

A question, do you obey all Biblical commands, or do you obey the ones that appeal to you personally?

Wow. you are suggesting that Michael might not be a true follower of Christ and the Scriptures and you don’t know anything about him. It appears to me that if anyone is not into having gregorian chant in the mass you are going to accuse them of being a false Christian. That does not seem quite fair.

 

[MrS]

Topher:

Wow. you are suggesting that Michael might not be a true follower of Christ and the Scriptures and you don’t know anything about him. It appears to me that if anyone is not into having gregorian chant in the mass you are going to accuse them of being a false Christian. That does not seem quite fair.

I doubt that was the intent. His response was politician-like, but not anti anything IMHO.

Once we get around to the proper direction of the liturgy, all the other things will fall into place … again.

 

[netmilsmom]

Topher:

That is just lovely. But the rest of us in the real world, the one created by Christ, probably won’t spend the time teaching them to sing in five different langauges. If I have kids I will be far too busy teaching them to follow Christ’s commandments and the teachings of the Church to busy my self with slovak.
And by the way. I know that the mass is not some “Jesus Party”. Rather it is his holy sacrifice. That doesn’t mean that our aime should be to make it borring.

“The rest of us in the Real World”?
So this means that we are not in the real world?

Come on back when you have kids and we’ll talk. I thought the same thing before kids. Now I know that the best way to teach a child to live Christ’s commandments is to live them yourself along with the CCD they attend.
Telling a child to do something is never as good as showing an example.

(we had Jesus parties at my old “Catholic Community”, trust me)

 

[Strider]

After all of the discussion above, this is what it comes down to:
If, at any time in the last two thousand years, the Church had accommodated any, and I mean any, current culture, we would be just another Christian denomination.
Respect the young enough to bring them up to the level of mature devotion. When we “meet them where they are,” we lower ourselves to trying to be like them, thus losing their respect and our dignity.
Done properly, lifting them up by demanding more of them will gain not only their respect but their gratitude.
Such is my experience, gained as with most experience, at the expense of much pain and frustration.

 

[netmilsmom]

Strider:

After all of the discussion above, this is what it comes down to:
If, at any time in the last two thousand years, the Church had accommodated any, and I mean any, current culture, we would be just another Christian denomination.
Respect the young enough to bring them up to the level of mature devotion. When we “meet them where they are,” we lower ourselves to trying to be like them, thus losing their respect and our dignity.
Done properly, lifting them up by demanding more of them will gain not only their respect but their gratitude.
Such is my experience, gained as with most experience, at the expense of much pain and frustration.

I had to sneak a peek at your profile.
A person with your past experience is someone to be listened to.

Thank you for chiming in!

 

[vluvski]

Masses with or without Christian rock music are equally susceptible to irreverence and practices that are contrary to liturgical norms described in the GIRM.

IMO, it is absurd to believe that any style of music is inherently irreverent. Psalms in particular mentions all sorts of instruments known and lost in praising God.

Many “traditional songs” are inappropriate during certain church seasons, and it is just as possible that certain contemporary songs are inappropriate as well.

The biggest potential for problems at Life Teen Masses, IMO, is a music director that is too showy. On the other hand, our choir director has the same problem at adult Masses.

I guess it is customary to raise your hands in worship at certain parts of the Life Teen Mass. I have often envied the guitar players, because I am just not moved to do so. I simply keep my hands folded in prayer, fingers uncrossed (I just like that, and I know this is shallow, because it looks more angelic, and also because it takes a degree of self-discipline to do so). People should not be made to feel uncomfortable worshipping as they feel called, within reason and within the recommendations of the GIRM, of course. I’m talking about things like raising arms and holding hands, not kneeling vs standing on your head.

Life Teen has brought many young people to a greater understanding of their Catholic faith. So have many other legitimate movements within the Church that others find distasteful.

My fiance comes from a great Life Teen parish. I come from a progressive but musically traditional parish (not ultra-traditional, just typical Breaking Bread books). We will incorporate both styles at the wedding, but leave out the drums and the electric guitars to avoid giving anyone a heart attack. My dear old Dad, a great guitar player, didn’t feel particularly called to the adult music ministry, and is now doing music at Life Teen at their new parish. Mom, very traditional, has commented to me how beautiful some of the songs are. Sometimes I think people have contempt or discomfort due to contemporary Christian music simply because it is unfamiliar, and they can’t participate fully in that aspect of the Mass. This was the case for me when I first started attending Mass at my fiance’s parish. It is my genuine hope that every person would come to appreciate, respect, and even enjoy all forms of music when performed to the glory of God.

 

[Michael_Welter]

vluvski;

VERY well said. Thank you.