Lifelong atheist, Hell bound, and Born Again

[alwayswill]

There is conversion and there are conversions. There is born again and rebirths. There is a justification and times of justifications. There is the gift of salvation, but there are times of repentance.

Baptism constitutes a true regeneration of the person such that they arise as a new creation. That is not a metaphor, and it is of the whole person. There is no such rebirth in the person coming back to Christ. Not in the way of Baptism.

A Jewish man who abandons Judaism doesn’t get (nor can he be) recircumcized should he return. He is already marked. He is reintegrated into the community.

Anyway, I referred to it as a resuscitation. Like when a person stops breathing, maybe even the heart stops, and they can be resuscitated by new breath being given to them (via CPR). But they are not remade, they’re restored. These are my own word choices.

ok so the conversion that happens at during infant baptism may never manifest itself in any observable way:
so by following around a group of preschoolers or high school seniors it would not be obvious to us which were baptized as an infant and which were not (yes: God would know) unlike the conversion of prodigal son which is obvious…

In other words the conversion that happens at infant baptism is an invisible remaking of a new creature with no outward visible signs, possibly for their entire life: correct?

 

[rcwitness]

Revelations 2
‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Yet this you have, you hate the works of the Nicola′itans, which I also hate. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

 

[alwayswill]

What did our Lord tell Nicodemus? I believe you are trying to equate questioning one’s spirituality with death. That is not the case. You can always come back to the Lord.

“I believe you are trying to equate questioning one’s spirituality with death”
nope

Not talking about “questioning” ; never was.
I don’t know where that came from:
I said rejecting.

I am asking you please , please do not make jumps like that

It was Catholic poster Wesrock used the used the term "spiritually dead ", in post #2, to describe the scenario of rejecting God for their entire life in post #1

 

[Michael68]

“I believe you are trying to equate questioning one’s spirituality with death”
nope

Not talking about “questioning” ; never was.
I don’t know where that came from:
I said rejecting.

I am asking you please , please do not make jumps like that

It was Catholic poster Wesrock used the used the term "spiritually dead ", in post #2, to describe the scenario of rejecting God for their entire life in post #1

Excuse me, Ill stay out of your convo. unsubscribing

 

[alwayswill]

Revelations 2
‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Yet this you have, you hate the works of the Nicola′itans, which I also hate. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

as you didn’t quote what you are replying to: is that in response to the elect losing their salvation or a prodigal returning back to a new life?

 

[alwayswill]

Excuse me, Ill stay out of your convo. unsubscribing

by all means stay and contribute: I am just asking to accurately represent my postings.
I would think that everyone would want to be accurate.

 

[rcwitness]

as you didn’t quote what you are replying to: is that in response to the elect losing their salvation or a prodigal returning back to a new life?

I don’t know if they are “elect”. That takes revelation to know… only God, Who is in eternity, knows whom He has written into the book. But it seems these, whom Jesus commends in the faith have abandoned love and must repent and do the works of faith, that they did at their beginning, or He will remove their Lampstand.

 

[MT1926]

In this article
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/born-again-the-bible-way
Tim Staples writes, “Yes, I have been born again—when I was baptized.”

Does Catholics theology allow for the scenario in which a baptized infant grows into adulthood rejecting God for their entire life?

IOW; as soon as they can think for themselves, they lump the Toothy Fairy, Santa Claus and God all in the same group;

Maybe the parents are agnostic
Perhaps the parents only had their infant baptized to make Grandma happy.
And other than weddings, funerals, Christmas , and Easter the parents really have nothing more to do with the Church.

So little Johnny grows up NEVER believing and out right rejecting God.

Can someone be a Lifelong atheist, Hell bound, and be Born Again?

Ok you seem to have a lot going on in here. I will give it a try.

First, we would need to make sure we are speaking about the same thing. Are we discussing “Baptism” or “Being Born Again”. As you mentioned Tim states “Yes, I have been born again—when I was baptized.” At the end of the article he says “baptism is the way the unsaved are brought into Christ”. So we can conclude that Tim is basically saying the Catholic is born again through Baptism which brings that person to Christ. No where days he say this is a guarantee of justification or salvation.

Would you agree with this definition or would you define “Being Born Again” a different way?

Using the above definition I will try my best to answer your question: Can someone be a Lifelong atheist, Hell bound, and be Born Again?

From this question it leads me to believe that we are not defining being born again the same way. I am going to break it down the way I am understanding it.

As I mentioned above being Baptized is not a guarantee of salvation or justification (unless, I believe, you died right after you were Baptized). Basically, even if you were Baptized you still could lose your salvation by rejecting God.

Now that being said as Catholics we do not believe all Lifelong atheists are “Hell Bound”. God is their judge not us. From my understanding the teaching about salvation for non-Catholics and non-Christians stems from this verse.

John 15:22-24
22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.

So basically, if little Johnny was Baptized (Born Again) for the grandmother’s sake but the parents never taught him anything about God, then he is one of the few that were not spoken to. Now this does not mean he is automatically saved, since he was Baptized, all it means is Jesus might still save him for some other reason. Since he was never taught what Jesus commanded us to do, he does have a “excuse” for his sin.

 

[alwayswill]

Ok you seem to have a lot going on in here. I will give it a try.

First, we would need to make sure we are speaking about the same thing. Are we discussing “Baptism” or “Being Born Again”. As you mentioned Tim states “Yes, I have been born again—when I was baptized.” At the end of the article he says “baptism is the way the unsaved are brought into Christ”. So we can conclude that Tim is basically saying the Catholic is born again through Baptism which brings that person to Christ. No where days he say this is a guarantee of justification or salvation.

Would you agree with this definition or would you define “Being Born Again” a different way?

Using the above definition I will try my best to answer your question: Can someone be a Lifelong atheist, Hell bound, and be Born Again?

From this question it leads me to believe that we are not defining being born again the same way. I am going to break it down the way I am understanding it.

As I mentioned above being Baptized is not a guarantee of salvation or justification (unless, I believe, you died right after you were Baptized). Basically, even if you were Baptized you still could lose your salvation by rejecting God.

Now that being said as Catholics we do not believe all Lifelong atheists are “Hell Bound”. God is their judge not us. From my understanding the teaching about salvation for non-Catholics and non-Christians stems from this verse.

John 15:22-24
22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.

So basically, if little Johnny was Baptized (Born Again) for the grandmother’s sake but the parents never taught him anything about God, then he is one of the few that were not spoken to. Now this does not mean he is automatically saved, since he was Baptized, all it means is Jesus might still save him for some other reason. Since he was never taught what Jesus commanded us to do, he does have a “excuse” for his sin.

thank you:
I agree you gave the Catholic understanding of being born again…
I am not as sure you gave the the proper Catholic view on salvation for God rejecting atheists

 

[rcwitness]

As I mentioned above being Baptized is not a guarantee of salvation or justification(unless, I believe, you died right after you were Baptized). Basically, even if you were Baptized you still could lose your salvation by rejecting God.

If you don’t mind, I’d like to clarify this…

At our Baptism (both Infant and adult) we are guaranteed justification. The adult may have a current condition of his/her belief, while the infants condition of belief comes into effect at the age of reason. Final Justification and Salvation depends on the Lord’s judgment whether the believer, who was Baptized, lived a life of faith that lead to works of mercy and charity toward others.

 

[Wesrock]

ok so the conversion that happens at during infant baptism may never manifest itself in any observable way:
so by following around a group of preschoolers or high school seniors it would not be obvious to us which were baptized as an infant and which were not (yes: God would know) unlike the conversion of prodigal son which is obvious…

In other words the conversion that happens at infant baptism is an invisible remaking of a new creature with no outward visible signs, possibly for their entire life: correct?

Baptized Christians have a sort of glow emanating from them, only observable to Catholics.

No, nothing visible, though you’re hardly tell who is circumcised and who isn’t without pulling down their trousers! Baptism does infuse us with God’s grace and holiness. It initiates us into life in Christ. It (as the normative way) allows for the forgiveness of sin and the giving of grace through the sacraments.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

I want to get my terminology right

“You can only be born again once”

I would assume that Catholicism holds you can not become un-elected.
(please correct me if I am wrong)

and in an another thread Catholics agree that eternal life , does not mean temporary life…

What is the proper terminology for when someone is in between periods of time of " being saved" and “not being saved”

If infant Johnny was baptized, rejects God in HS, come back to the faith as a father: loses faith when his son dies, etc…
Is there a proper term for those faithless periods of those born again?

all those who are elect will be saved at the end.

all those who are saved at the end are the elect.

any one is not saved at the end was not among the elect.

one cannot move between being elect and being non- elect

Catholics do not believe in double predestination, nobody is predestined, “elect,” for Heaven or Hell before their birth. All of us have free will. A baptized Christian is saved, born again. He can choose to sin, fall away, leave a state of grace. He can always repent and return to a state of grace.

A fallen away Christian can be saved from sin and spiritual death more than once. He cannot be re-baptized or “born again of the water” more than once. The Church has always taught this, in opposition to the Anabaptist re-baptizers.

 

[Cathoholic]

Alwayswill.

You referred me to this thread so I assume you would prefer I comment on it.

You asked . . .

QUOTE:
Does Catholics theology allow for the scenario in which a baptized infant grows into adulthood rejecting God for their entire life?

When you are baptized, an adult approaches baptism because of their natural faith.

If an adult baptismal candidate does not believe in Jesus when getting Baptized it is considered “an impediment” and is thus not a valid Baptism.

Fathers and mothers can speak with authority on behalf of their children. Just like the father at the foot of he Mount of Transfiguration approached Jesus to grace his son with an exorcism. The kid didn’t make this decision. Jesus complied with the father’s act of faith.

When we as parents bring our babies to be Baptized we are called to promise to bring the baby up in the faith. To catechize the baby and set a good Catholic Christian example.

When the Baby receives Baptism, utilizing the faith of his father and the faith of the Church, the graces of SUPERNATURAL faith, hope, and charity are poured into the infant.

This infant now HAS FAITH of his own (but that is just the entrance ramp to the Christian life).

The infant now HAS supernatural faith - as well as supernatural hope and charity.

As you have pointed out elsewhere, you NEED faith to be pleasing to God.

Babies who have been graced with Baptism, now possess such faith.

Babies can possess faith.

That’s one reason WHY Jesus can say, the Kingdom of God belongs to “such as these”.

“Such as these” of course were infants.

That’s one reason WHY Jesus can tell the Apostles to go out and make “disciples of ALL NATIONS”.

And HOW do you make such a disciple?

Fortunately Jesus told us.

By BAPTIZING them (in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit), and “teaching them ALL that I have commanded you” - which is a lifelong catechetical project, not a mere moment.

That’s one reason WHY the Holy Spirit, through St. Peter can proclaim to adults in Acts, Repent and BE BAPTIZED, all of you for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit. And “the promise” is for you . . . AND . . . for YOUR CHILDREN.

5000 were added that very day. Presumably some of them had infant children.

So yes these babies already have faith. Assuming valid Baptism occurred, they cannot grow up NEVER having faith after that because they have already received it.

They CAN grow up and CHOOSE to not REMAIN in the Vine. They can choose to not remain in Jesus by their free will.

And if they do that they would have been better off not knowing the way of righteousness, than having Jesus as their Lord and deciding to throw this GIFT away.

Nothing can seperate us from the LOVE of God.

After all, God so loved THE WHOLE WORLD, that he gave us his only begotten Son, despite all humanity being at “enmity with God” as St. Paul says.

Nothing can seperate us from the LOVE of God. But by your own volition, by your own free will, you CAN be seperated from the LIFE of God.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[goout]

Birth is not simply an event. It is and invitation to, and the beginning of, new life.** Life is lived as a journey, not an event. **
When one receives specific graces, the person must freely cooperate for grace to be effective. If a person has no ongoing relationship with God, then obviously they are not receiving gifts (grace) from him.

The gift is always offered, -and- the person must at the very least acknowledge the giver and accept the gift in gratitude (eucharistia).

God is not a book or a contract, he is a being. And unitive relationship is what new life consists of.

 

[alwayswill]

…
God is not a book or a contract, he is a being. And unitive relationship is what new life consists of.

why do you keep saying that:

Do you think I believe God is a book?

 

[goout]

why do you keep saying that:

Do you think I believe God is a book?

I simply said what I said for the edification of those reading.

 

[Wesrock]

Catholics do not believe in double predestination, nobody is predestined, “elect,” for Heaven or Hell before their birth. All of us have free will. A baptized Christian is saved, born again. He can choose to sin, fall away, leave a state of grace. He can always repent and return to a state of grace.

People can be predestined or chosen for Heaven. It’s just saying that God chooses to send people to Hell that is an issue. We all merit Hell of our own accord. God doesn’t choose that as our end for us, override our free will to make that our destination, or save us for Hell. And yes, we have free will. I think people would be surprised studying either Thomist or Molinist theories of free will and predestination, which of course are not the be all and end all to Catholic theology, but are the two major camps. We can be predestined and have free will.

 

[rcwitness]

I’ve often wondered if St Paul could really have faith, in the sense that we do. He was given a personal revelation of indisputable proof and knowledge of Jesus, despite what he was doing against the Church. It’s really impossible to think that he walked in faith alone. His faith needed to be action and suffering.

 

[goout]

Birth is not simply an event. It is and invitation to, and the beginning of, new life.** Life is lived as a journey, not an event. **
When one receives specific graces, the person must freely cooperate for grace to be effective. If a person has no ongoing relationship with God, then obviously they are not receiving gifts (grace) from him.

The gift is always offered, -and- the person must at the very least acknowledge the giver and accept the gift in gratitude (eucharistia).

God is not a book or a contract, he is a being. And unitive relationship is what new life consists of.

And I should edit this:
God is not just a being, but is being itself.
Being without limit of time, contingent on nothing else, caused by nothing else.

In regard to our destiny, he has knowledge of all time and events that we can never have. And so we cannot live our lives as if our knowledge is on a par with God’s. Life is a journey and involves our free will, which has proven to be a dicey proposition.
Paul expresses this “diceyness” well:

14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
…19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
… I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Paul knows he is on a journey. He does not grasp at certitude in the knowledge of God. He knows who he is, and Paul is working on Paul, not worrying about claiming his position in God’s order.

work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Healthy fear of God, who’s full knowledge of our destiny is His alone. Work…the employ of our free will in finding relationship with Him. Work implies a hard journey.

 

[Peter_J]

In this article
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/born-again-the-bible-way
Tim Staples writes, “Yes, I have been born again—when I was baptized.”

Does Catholics theology allow for the scenario in which a baptized infant grows into adulthood rejecting God for their entire life?

IOW; as soon as they can think for themselves, they lump the Toothy Fairy, Santa Claus and God all in the same group;

Maybe the parents are agnostic
Perhaps the parents only had their infant baptized to make Grandma happy.
And other than weddings, funerals, Christmas , and Easter the parents really have nothing more to do with the Church.

So little Johnny grows up NEVER believing and out right rejecting God.

Can someone be a Lifelong atheist, Hell bound, and be Born Again?

Who’s Tim Staples?