L
- Status
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
I have heard so many revert stories from fallen away Catholics. The theme is very common…born into the Catholic Church, had parents who usually weren’t very serious about their own faith. The person, themselves, definitely were never serious about it…they live their lives, going about their business and then at some point in life feel a strong calling back to the Church. And today they are very devout…and the explanation is always the same…the graces received through baptism and confirmation must be, at least in part, why they came home and got serious as they have no other logical explanation.
So not born again, AGAIN. Just a simple responding of graces already received. I think we can say the same for cradle Catholics who have what they believe to be a protestant born again experience. Unbeknownst to them, they are finally responding to graces already received through the sacraments…
So not born again, AGAIN. Just a simple responding of graces already received. I think we can say the same for cradle Catholics who have what they believe to be a protestant born again experience. Unbeknownst to them, they are finally responding to graces already received through the sacraments…
R
rcwitness
Guest
Have you not heard of any anabaptist stories or converting because of protestant preachers?
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
Sure, plenty.
But it’s my belief they are simply responding to graces already received, just not in proper formation.
R
rcwitness
Guest
I’m sure you do. But they dont. And I think they often are compelled by genuine love of Jesus in preaching. I just think we should acknowledge the good faith that is outside the visible Church.
What they should realize, is the call to unity and accurate doctrine from the same Spirit that compelled them to conversion of heart.
M
MT1926
Guest
I think he owns the office supply stores
M
MT1926
Guest
Thanks for the response and the agreement. However, you didn’t answer my question. Do you define Born Again the same way or differently. It would help if I knew your point of view so we could have a more productive 2 way dialogue.
I don’t think of myself as an apologist but I think I came pretty close on the view of Salvation for nonChristians.
Here’s the teaching from the Catechism…
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
I was referring to your example of the child that was Baptized but never instructed in the faith. Now if you are speaking of someone that rejects God even though they know he exists then I could agree with you that this person is probably not saved. However, if they reject God because say their parents taught them some far out totally unbiblical representation of who God is, then I would say they do not know the Gospel and they might be saved. It’s God’s choice not ours.
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
Sure, there are excellent instruments outside the Catholic Church used by God in the conversion of sinners. I and many others here are living proof of that.
W
Wannano
Guest
I am curious to know what is meant by Anabaptist stories?
D
Duane1966
Guest
Would you agree that being born again as an adult would not make someone among the elect?
Would you agree that only God knows who the elect are, because only He knows who will persevere to the end?
R
rcwitness
Guest
Those Baptized as Infants, then converted as an adult to belief and rebaptized.
A
alwayswill
Guest
They are elect BEFORE the foundation of the world
do you agree that is what these multiple verses mean?
That election happened in the past?
1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Ephesians 1:4
For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love
Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, **he also **glorified.
so no, being born again does not make someone among the elect.God did that before Day One of Creation
HOWEVER:
Using the Protestant (Reformed view) understanding of being born again:
All those who are born again are already among the elect.
Also : only God knows for sure who who are among the elect
HOWEVER:
God wants those that are among the to make every effort to confirm their calling and election: and He wants those believe in Christ to know they have eternal life
2 Peter 2:10
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election
1John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Do you make every effort to confirm you election?
Do you know you have eternal life.
I do
Have I sinned?
D
Duane1966
Guest
Do you know that you will persevere to the end?
The following is a five minute read about the assurance of salvation, or lack thereof.
shamelesspopery.com/three-major-arguments-against-assurance-of-salvation/
A
alwayswill
Guest
You asked
“Would you agree that being born again as an adult would not make someone among the elect?
Would you agree that only God knows who the elect are, because only He knows who will persevere to the end?”
and I answered both of your questions.
Please consider answering my questions to you.
thank you
the questions were:
Do you agree that election happened in the past?
Do you make every effort to confirm you election?
Do you know you have eternal life?
R
rcwitness
Guest
2 Peter
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.So, just as in all the promises, in Scripture, of eternal life, we see the instruction to do works of faith, hope and charity in order to give us assurance of His reward. We are to examine our lives and come to a confidence that we are acting and abounding in self-control, steadfastness, Godliness and brotherly love! This is how we can be sure of our state before the Lord. But our election depends of our completeness of faith. Peter does not say, “… so there is already provided you an entrance…” but that, “… there will be provided…”. There are conditions of eternal life. It is not by faith without virtues that faith shows to us.
What does “suppliment” mean?
Suppliment:
: something that is added to something else in order to make it complete.
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.So, just as in all the promises, in Scripture, of eternal life, we see the instruction to do works of faith, hope and charity in order to give us assurance of His reward. We are to examine our lives and come to a confidence that we are acting and abounding in self-control, steadfastness, Godliness and brotherly love! This is how we can be sure of our state before the Lord. But our election depends of our completeness of faith. Peter does not say, “… so there is already provided you an entrance…” but that, “… there will be provided…”. There are conditions of eternal life. It is not by faith without virtues that faith shows to us.
What does “suppliment” mean?
Suppliment:
: something that is added to something else in order to make it complete.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
All people were created destined for God. We view our life as a journey towards heaven. Most do not take a straight path. But we do not journey alone. We journey together, in the long pilgrimage of the Church to its fulfillment. When we wander, as an individual or as a community, we return, wounded, to Jesus Christ. He heals us.
D
Duane1966
Guest
Yes
But you do not know if you are truly born again, you will not know that until the end, if you have persevered. You admit this in your next sentence.
But, we know that many who believe, and believe fervently, will fall by the wayside, from the Parable of the Sower.
These are all great verses that you have posted. Do you know for certain you will believe to the end of your days on here on earth?
If you read the link I posted, it talks about a famous televangelist in the 50’s. He was certain of his election. He fell away, and is rumored to have died an atheist.
Yes
If I persevere to the end I will. But I have many former Reformed friends who over the years preached to me about their election and how they were assured of their salvation, that have left Christianity all together. I pray they return.
Look what John Calvin thought. Taken from the site I linked to earlier.
Which brings us back to this question, do you know you will persevere to the end?
If yes, according to Calvin, what you feel could mean you are, or could mean you are not one of the elect.
A Catholic knows if they persevere until the end, they will be saved. You yourself admitted that only God knows for sure.
C
Contarini
Guest
I probably haven’t read all the posts on this thread and perhaps it’s been addressed, but I would challenge the assumption that an atheist is necessarily hell-bound. It isn’t directly relevant to the main argument, but it may be tangentially relevant.
Alwayswill is demonstrating the typical Reformed confusion of election with regeneration. A nice demonstration of the main respect in which Calvinism differs from Catholic Augustinianism.
Edwin
Alwayswill is demonstrating the typical Reformed confusion of election with regeneration. A nice demonstration of the main respect in which Calvinism differs from Catholic Augustinianism.
Edwin
R
rcwitness
Guest
Im not sure an athiest is considered able to attain heaven let alone a person Baptized as an infant, then never believing. I believe all of mankind has been hell-bound since Adam. Jesus did free mankind from this bondage, but definitely through belief and Baptism (which the latter could have exceptions). St Paul acknowledges how some who did not have the law could do what the law required. And this is who gives God thanks, knowing life is a gift.
Romans 1
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him
R
Reuben_J
Guest
This is very contradictory.
You said, only God knows who are the elects, we do not know.
If I do not know that I am elected, then how could I go on to confirm what I do not know?
Isn’t that presumptuous?
You asked, “Do you know you have eternal life?”
How could you or I know that, if like you said, only God knows?
- Status