Lifelong atheist, Hell bound, and Born Again

[alwayswill]

This is very contradictory.

You said, only God knows who are the elects, we do not know.

If I do not know that I am elected, then how could I go on to confirm what I do not know?

Isn’t that presumptuous?

You asked, “Do you know you have eternal life?”

How could you or I know that, if like you said, only God knows?

I don’t know if the guy next to me in the church is among the elect: only God knows

Please answer these questions:

Do you make every effort to confirm you election?
Do you know you have eternal life.?

I answer yes and yes:

Your turn

 

[alwayswill]

Yes​

But you do not know if you are truly born again, you will not know that until the end, if you have persevered. You admit this in your next sentence.

But, we know that many who believe, and believe fervently, will fall by the wayside, from the Parable of the Sower.

These are all great verses that you have posted. Do you know for certain you will believe to the end of your days on here on earth?

If you read the link I posted, it talks about a famous televangelist in the 50’s. He was certain of his election. He fell away, and is rumored to have died an atheist.

Yes
If I persevere to the end I will. But I have many former Reformed friends who over the years preached to me about their election and how they were assured of their salvation, that have left Christianity all together. I pray they return.

Look what John Calvin thought. Taken from the site I linked to earlier.

Which brings us back to this question, do you know you will persevere to the end?

If yes, according to Calvin, what you feel could mean you are, or could mean you are not one of the elect.

A Catholic knows if they persevere until the end, they will be saved. You yourself admitted
that only God knows for sure.

I am being very precise in choice of words:
I don’t know for sure (infallibly) the sun will come up tomorrow
Only God is infallible.

If God said the sun will come up tomorrow: I would believe him to the best of my human ability

Was the thief on the Cross to doubt what Christ said?

I trust the promises of Christ over what I trust about my self.
I believe the promises of Christ over what I believe about my self.

Do you trust the promises of Christ that much?

 

[Contarini]

Im not sure an athiest is considered able to attain heaven let alone a person Baptized as an infant, then never believing. I believe all of mankind has been hell-bound since Adam. Jesus did free mankind from this bondage, but definitely through belief and Baptism (which the latter could have exceptions). St Paul acknowledges how some who did not have the law could do what the law required. And this is who gives God thanks, knowing life is a gift.

Romans 1
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him

I think that passage from Romans is a statement of the actual situation among pagans rather than a dogmatic claim that anyone who doesn’t believe in God must be “vincibly ignorant.” I don’t think Paul is addressing atheism at all in that passage, though I’m sure he would strenuously disapprove of atheistic or quasi-atheistic trends within pagan culture (such as Epicureanism).

I think Vatican II is fairly clear that explicit belief also has exceptions–if a person genuinely does not think that Christian/Catholic claims are true and is seeking the truth in good faith, then there is no culpability.

I recognize that many Christians don’t think that such atheists exist. I believe that such a blanket judgment is uncharitable and unjust.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I am being very precise in choice of words:
I don’t know for sure (infallibly) the sun will come up tomorrow
Only God is infallible.

If God said the sun will come up tomorrow: I would believe him to the best of my human ability

Was the thief on the Cross to doubt what Christ said?

I trust the promises of Christ over what I trust about my self.
I believe the promises of Christ over what I believe about my self.

Do you trust the promises of Christ that much?

But of course, the question is, “what is the promise of Christ that you trust?”

You say, I presume, “the promise to save those who repent and believe?”

And if “believe” is understood as “faith formed by love” then Catholics would absolutely agree.

That is why Catholics believe that one can have “moral certainty” (not infallible certainty) of one’s present salvation. As Duane1966 has shown, Calvin himself pointed out that a person might have “false faith”–something that felt to the person like faith, but was not living faith. In fact, I’d argue that the emphasis on assurance in Reformed theology makes this dilemma far more cruel than in Catholicism.

We do not believe that there is any promise of Christ saying that a person who has once believed will always continue to do so. God gives grace for the moment–worrying about the future of one’s soul is just as spiritually harmful as worrying about the future of one’s body, if not more so. In both cases we need to entrust ourselves to God’s mercy rather than coming up with a formula (however pious) that will supposedly give us certainty.

Edwin

 

[alwayswill]

But of course, the question is, “what is the promise of Christ that you trust?”

You say, I presume, “the promise to save those who repent and believe?”

And if “believe” is understood as “faith formed by love” then Catholics would absolutely agree.

That is why Catholics believe that one can have “moral certainty” (not infallible certainty) of one’s present salvation. As Duane1966 has shown, Calvin himself pointed out that a person might have “false faith”–something that felt to the person like faith, but was not living faith. In fact, I’d argue that the emphasis on assurance in Reformed theology makes this dilemma far more cruel than in Catholicism.

We do not believe that there is any promise of Christ saying that a person who has once believed will always continue to do so. God gives grace for the moment–worrying about the future of one’s soul is just as spiritually harmful as worrying about the future of one’s body, if not more so. In both cases we need to entrust ourselves to God’s mercy rather than coming up with a formula (however pious) that will supposedly give us certainty.

Edwin

1John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

does eternal mean temporary?

2 Peter 2:10
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election

Is it possible the elect will not be saved at the end?

 

[Duane1966]

I am being very precise in choice of words:
I don’t know for sure (infallibly) the sun will come up tomorrow
Only God is infallible.

If God said the sun will come up tomorrow: I would believe him to the best of my human ability

Was the thief on the Cross to doubt what Christ said?

I trust the promises of Christ over what I trust about my self.
I believe the promises of Christ over what I believe about my self.

Do you trust the promises of Christ that much?

Yes. I know that Christ is faithful. The Bible is clear over and over again that it is the human heart that is unfaithful. The Bible is also clear that many who believe they will be saved will not be.

But you have not answered what I have asked you twice before. Do you know you will persevere to the end? You may believe you will persevere to the end, but knowledge of what is to come only God knows.

So if you say yes you know, you are saying you are omniscient.

A Catholic knows from the promises of Christ that if they are faithful to His word, they will be saved. A Catholic realizes, and the Bible warns us in many places, that failure to persevere for the most fervent of believers today, is a real possibility.

By the way, Calvin makes it clear that many who are assured that they are elect will be damned.

 

[rcwitness]

I think that passage from Romans is a statement of the actual situation among pagans rather than a dogmatic claim that anyone who doesn’t believe in God must be “vincibly ignorant.” I don’t think Paul is addressing atheism at all in that passage, though I’m sure he would strenuously disapprove of atheistic or quasi-atheistic trends within pagan culture (such as Epicureanism).

I think Vatican II is fairly clear that explicit belief also has exceptions–if a person genuinely does not think that Christian/Catholic claims are true and is seeking the truth in good faith, then there is no culpability.

I recognize that many Christians don’t think that such atheists exist. I believe that such a blanket judgment is uncharitable and unjust.

Edwin

Can you provide the Vatican document that says it’s possible for atheists to attain eternal life. I it’s not a judgement on my part, either, it’s a plain understanding of Scripture, Tradition and Teaching. I am unaware of any Teaching of the Church that says otherwise.

I wasn’t claiming that Paul was teaching “invincible ignorrance”, rather the opposite… that there is no excuse for unbelief in God.

This is my belief. I could be wrong, but I would have to be shown something quite clear.

PS. I just realize you said “Vincibly ignorrant” I believe that Paul was making that claim, even though he was addressing a specific group. And because I’m not using that verse in isolation of the whole of Scripture. Belief is a fundamental necessity, even if that belief is faint, distant, or extremely basic. That there is a creator, he is good, and one has thankfulness to Him.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

But of course, the question is, “what is the promise of Christ that you trust?”

You say, I presume, “the promise to save those who repent and believe?”

And if “believe” is understood as “faith formed by love” then Catholics would absolutely agree.

That is why Catholics believe that one can have “moral certainty” (not infallible certainty) of one’s present salvation. As Duane1966 has shown, Calvin himself pointed out that a person might have “false faith”–something that felt to the person like faith, but was not living faith. In fact, I’d argue that the emphasis on assurance in Reformed theology makes this dilemma far more cruel than in Catholicism.

We do not believe that there is any promise of Christ saying that a person who has once believed will always continue to do so. God gives grace for the moment–worrying about the future of one’s soul is just as spiritually harmful as worrying about the future of one’s body, if not more so. In both cases we need to entrust ourselves to God’s mercy rather than coming up with a formula (however pious) that will supposedly give us certainty.

Edwin

Well done

 

[MT1926]

1John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

does eternal mean temporary?

You are correct eternal does not mean temporary. However, the words “:you have eternal life” come after the words “may know”. These words (may know) does not tell the reader they have absolute certainty of eternal life. These words here are used the same way we use them today when we say I know I am going to win first place in tomorrows race. There is no way we can have absolute certainty that we won’t twist our ankle half way through the race and lose. Just like in the verse here we are using the words “may Know” to mean we have confident assurance in the outcome, not infallible certainty. St. John uses the same words “may know” 2 verses later when he says “we know that we have obtained the requests made of him”. If St. John is telling us we have absolute certainty here that God will answer our prayer, why would he then go and tell us, but don’t pray for mortal sin because God won’t answer those prayers. Wait didn’t he just say “we know” we will obtain any request asked?

2 Peter 2:10
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election

Is it possible the elect will not be saved at the end?

I think you mean 2 Peter 1:10, typos happen no biggie.

If we back up to the beginning of the chapter we see St. Peter must be speaking to the elect when he says “who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours” in verse 1. Now when we read through to his climactic statement in verse 10 we see the thing the elect do. They:
supplement your faith with virtue
and virtue with knowledge
and knowledge with self-control
and self-control with steadfastness
and steadfastness with godliness
and godliness with brotherly affection
and brotherly affection with love.

St. Peter goes onto tell us in verse 9 that “whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.”

In verse 9 he is telling us that we are the elect (cleansed from our old sins) however he let’s it be known that it is possible to forget this election if we lack these things. The only way to forget it is if you already had it.

It is in this context that St. Peter says “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election”.

Confirming our election is the only way we can have confidence that we might be saved. St. Peter even tells us in the next line that we can not have assurance of being saved when he says “for if you do this you will never fall”. Which would mean that if we don’t do these things there is a possibility that we, the elect" might fall. And we will not recieve what is promised in verse 11. “so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

 

[Miriam1947]

I don’t know if the guy next to me in the church is among the elect: only God knows

Please answer these questions:

Do you make every effort to confirm you election?
Do you know you have eternal life.?

I answer yes and yes:

Your turn

How can you know you have eternal life?

 

[Michael68]

How can you know you have eternal life?

I don’t understand it either. St. Paul compares it to a race for a prize. How do get the prize if all you do is enter and then just stand there?

 

[goout]

How can you know you have eternal life?

Good question.
Life is not a prize, although it is sometimes described in that way.

Life is a person.

I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

Knowing we have eternal life is coming to know a person, developing that relationship.
He has offered us life, so we give the response of faith. We trust in him, that his word is good.

This idea of being certain that we possess something does not seem to be helpful.

 

[rcwitness]

How can you know you have eternal life?

If you belief and obey His commandment, you may know that you have eternal life. Whether or not you endure and persevere through all of life’s trials I don’t claim to know. Having Life means having the Holy Spirit. Remaining faithful to the Spirit unto the end is what matters. We can and do have faults, but if we do not deliberately continue in them, knowing it is against the Spirit that saved us, we can loose that Justification and sactification. We can deny the faith.

 

[rcwitness]

I think that passage from Romans is a statement of the actual situation among pagans rather than a dogmatic claim that anyone who doesn’t believe in God must be “vincibly ignorant.” I don’t think Paul is addressing atheism at all in that passage, though I’m sure he would strenuously disapprove of atheistic or quasi-atheistic trends within pagan culture (such as Epicureanism).

I think Vatican II is fairly clear that explicit belief also has exceptions–if a person genuinely does not think that Christian/Catholic claims are true and is seeking the truth in good faith, then there is no culpability.

I recognize that many Christians don’t think that such atheists exist. I believe that such a blanket judgment is uncharitable and unjust.

Edwin

Can you provide the Vatican document that says it’s possible for atheists to attain eternal life. I it’s not a judgement on my part, either, it’s a plain understanding of Scripture, Tradition and Teaching. I am unaware of any Teaching of the Church that says otherwise.

Are you still searching for this reference? I don’t understand how one can “seek the truth in good faith…” while being an athiest.

 

[Michael68]

Are you still searching for this reference? I don’t understand how one can “seek the truth in good faith…” while being an athiest.

I believe that would be an agnostic.

 

[rcwitness]

I did find this vague passage…

Gaudium et Spes, a document of the Second Vatican Council, stated about atheism:

Quote:

Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame; yet believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation. For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion (GS 19).

Though this acknowledges that man’s faults can lessen the culpability of unbelief in an unbeliever’s situation, it does not free them of complete atheistic denial of God.

 

[Wesrock]

In terms of using elect as those elected to eternal glory with God, yes, I believe I can agree with those statements.

There is an election in some sense to being part of the Church, the word can be used in more than one sense. But in the way you mean it, I believe you are correct.

Also, just to state it, I think many lay-Catholics understate the Church’s view of predestination and God’s Providence.

To follow up on whether Baptism assures election to eternal glory, and whether a reprobate can be validly baptized, the Church’s answers do appear to be no and yes respectively. To quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark,e **even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.**83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.85

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

 

[Contarini]

Can you provide the Vatican document that says it’s possible for atheists to attain eternal life.

Lumen Gentium 16:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Whether that applies to people who know about Christianity and reject it is open to interpretation. i think it does, as long as it is “through no fault of their own.” We are not in a position to make that judgment about any other person.

It it’s not a judgement on my part, either,

Obviously it is. You judge that atheists can’t be acting in good faith.

it’s a plain understanding of Scripture, Tradition and Teaching.

The “plain understanding” claim is a rhetorical device and I can’t take it seriously. You are making interpretive choices. We all are.

I am unaware of any Teaching of the Church that says otherwise.

Lumen Gentium says that people who do not know God but strive in good faith (by God’s grace) to lead a good life will receive the “helps necessary to salvation.” I understand that this language could mean that such people will come to believe in God before they die. Conciliar language is carefully constructed compromise language allowing for a spectrum of interpretation. I’m not claiming that my view is mandated by the Council’s language. I’m claiming that it’s possible, and that it’s the view best justified by the empirical evidence and most in keeping with the demands of charity, which is the most important principle in interpreting any Church teaching.

PS. I just realize you said “Vincibly ignorrant” I believe that Paul was making that claim, even though he was addressing a specific group. And because I’m not using that verse in isolation of the whole of Scripture. Belief is a fundamental necessity, even if that belief is faint, distant, or extremely basic. That there is a creator, he is good, and one has thankfulness to Him.

I don’t think that any intellectual beliefs are a “fundamental necessity.” Intellectual belief is not wholly under the control of our own will. For some people, given their temperament and experiences, belief in God might be psychologically impossible. In other cases it might be possible but might actually be a sin, because it would be a deliberate choice to ignore the best evidence available to them.

Edwin

 

[Peter_J]

Lumen Gentium 16:

Whether that applies to people who know about Christianity and reject it is open to interpretation. i think it does, as long as it is “through no fault of their own.” We are not in a position to make that judgment about any other person.

Obviously it is. You judge that atheists can’t be acting in good faith.

The “plain understanding” claim is a rhetorical device and I can’t take it seriously. You are making interpretive choices. We all are.

Lumen Gentium says that people who do not know God but strive in good faith (by God’s grace) to lead a good life will receive the “helps necessary to salvation.” I understand that this language could mean that such people will come to believe in God before they die. Conciliar language is carefully constructed compromise language allowing for a spectrum of interpretation. I’m not claiming that my view is mandated by the Council’s language. I’m claiming that it’s possible, and that it’s the view best justified by the empirical evidence and most in keeping with the demands of charity, which is the most important principle in interpreting any Church teaching.

I don’t think that any intellectual beliefs are a “fundamental necessity.” Intellectual belief is not wholly under the control of our own will. For some people, given their temperament and experiences, belief in God might be psychologically impossible. In other cases it might be possible but might actually be a sin, because it would be a deliberate choice to ignore the best evidence available to them.

Edwin

I like the quote that someone recently provided from Fr Mitch Pacwa: “That’s a management decision. We’re only in sales.”

 

[rcwitness]

Lumen Gentium 16:
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)*Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Whether that applies to people who know about Christianity and reject it is open to interpretation. i think it does, as long as it is “through no fault of their own.” We are not in a position to make that judgment about any other person.

I’d say it’s pretty obvious this deals with those who are not aware of the Gospel. Further, it is not addressing those who reject belief in God, but rather those who do acknowledge Him, as Creator.

Obviously it is. You judge that atheists can’t be acting in good faith.

It’s an oxymoron. But the distinction is that I am NOT judging who does or who does not believe. An atheist is actually someone who specifically believes there is no God or Creator.
Mark 16
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.*He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The “plain understanding” claim is a rhetorical device and I can’t take it seriously. You are making interpretive choices. We all are.

Yes.

Lumen Gentium says that people who do not know God but strive in good faith (by God’s grace) to lead a good life will receive the “helps necessary to salvation.” I understand that this language could mean that such people will come to believe in God before they die. Conciliar language is carefully constructed compromise language allowing for a spectrum of interpretation. I’m not claiming that my view is mandated by the Council’s language. I’m claiming that it’s possible, and that it’s the view best justified by the empirical evidence and most in keeping with the demands of charity, which is the most important principle in interpreting any Church teaching.

You seem to be saying something different than your argument here.

I don’t think that any intellectual beliefs are a “fundamental necessity.” Intellectual belief is not wholly under the control of our own will. For some people, given their temperament and experiences, belief in God might be psychologically impossible. In other cases it might be possible but might actually be a sin, because it would be a deliberate choice to ignore the best evidence available to them.

This fundamental belief is not an “intellectual” matter. It has to do with the soul of a person. Atheism is a belief that God, or a Creator, does not exist.