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VociMike
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What Church documents support your assertions here?
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VociMike
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Is any music prohibited? Is every music allowed? Some people instinctively say NO, not every music is allowed, but can’t back up their instinct. Others say YES, every music is allowed.Nor is it unacceptable simply because benedictgal (or someone like her) doesn’t personally like it. Show me where Jazz or Light Rock is prohibited.
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benedictgal
Guest
Actually, sacred music does have its parameters. Please re-read what Pope John Paul II wrote in the Chirograph on Sacred Music, especially the quote he referenced from Pope Paul VI where the Pontiff who closed the Second Vatican Council noted that not all music is wothry enough to cross the threshold of the Liturgy.
As much as you are trying, this is one instance where you cannot make a square peg fit into a round hole. Just because OCP publishes stuff, that doesn’t mean that it’s suitable to cross that threshold.
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VociMike
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Can anybody offer a figure, even from their own experience, as to how many Lifeteen Masses use Gregorian chant and/or sacred polyphony?
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Margarite
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Then everyone would say “What is sacred music?”
There is right and wrong. There is good and bad. There is appropriate and inappropriate. Where do you draw the line?
We trads think that a song should be examined carefully. Songs are extremely powerful, they stick in people’s head and if used correctly they can be an awesome teaching tool, but if used poorly they can teach untruths.
Many songs that are used in most masses do not enhance a person’s understanding of God. They may make some people “Feel” good, but it doesn’t make them learn how to be good.
If you read some of the older hymns they speak of humbling yourself before God and the awe that we should have when the priest consecrates the bread and wine. They speak of our unworthiness and the awesomeness of God’s mercy.
Modern songs on the other hand often talk about how “He” or “I” will make us good and make us better and raise us up. Or how we are the light of the world or how good we are. Rarely do they speak of the mystery of the transubstantiation or the wonderful intercession of our heavenly mother. They are all me focussed. They all focus on the here and now and on me.
Mass is about God. The songs in mass should be focused on God and how wonderful God is.
The point is many, many, many Catholics know next to nothing about their faith. The only place that they gather together is Sunday mass. We should use that hour to the best of our ability to teach. Since songs are so powerful, we should be very careful and particular with which songs we play in mass. And Thus we should pick songs that teach us about our Catholic faith.
Please look at a copy of the Adoremus Hymnal and just read the words in the songs. They are prayers. Read them even without the music and they are amazingly beautiful. Many of them were written by saints.
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benedictgal
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I have quoted documents from Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, as well as statements from the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist and Pope Paul VI, as well as references from Musicam Sacram. What more do you want?
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japhy
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Perhaps that Pope Paul VI knew the mind of the Church and the Council, concerning musical genres and the Mass?Interesting comment. Just what are you trying to imply here?
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benedictgal
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THurifer2
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Its seems in many places these “lifeteen” Masses are an attempt to model Catholic worhsip after Modern secular culture. The very culture we want our children to turn from.
in 20 years from now todays lifeteeners will not be able to relate to their childrens version of lifeteen…
Seems like a pretty viscious cycle of trying to form the church and worship into the image of this world…shouldn’t it be the other way?
in 20 years from now todays lifeteeners will not be able to relate to their childrens version of lifeteen…
Seems like a pretty viscious cycle of trying to form the church and worship into the image of this world…shouldn’t it be the other way?
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PatrickJT914
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**Come on and give us credit. **We who work with youth in a parish do teach basic Catholic teachings. We know something about today’s teen culture. We know how to blend the both of them. Church doctrine is not watered down just presented in different methods to reach the teens. They (The youth) just as everybody else learn and retain information with different approaches. Some respond to stories,skits,visuals,written word,classroom setting, spoken word,personal experiences,music,games,role playing, lectures,etc. If you are using one method only. Guess what you’ve lost a majority of the people you’re teaching. And I’m sorry if some of you don’t approve of it.
Tell me if our Church is such a great church (Which it is) then why aren’t the parishes overflowing with Mass attendees? Why are parishes closing in many places in the U.S.? When a parish has a good and vibrant LIFE TEEN you will usually see parishes a little bit more alive. (Teens bring their parents, family, lapsed Catholic teen, un-churched, and other church friends.) Our faith is not a dead faith, it’s a living breathing experience of God’s love for us. And if LIFE TEEN can revitalize our parishes, bring back youthfulness to our senior members, bring more money into the collection, inspire people to volunteer for parish service, encourage vocations, foster a deep reverence (It’s there you may not see right away, remember teens want to look cool in front of their friends), going to Mass because they want to (parents aren’t forcing them anymore.Sometimes it’s the teens who force the parents to go to church.), help out in the liturgical ministries, live out their faith to other teens at school, give them courage to do so, set an example to their siblings, sometimes gets Father to be recharged in his ministry (teens do appreciate and thank him) , pray more often and for others, stay a little bit after Mass (when there isn’t a Life Night.), sometimes (Remember still teens) tell other people to be quiet, no cell phones, no hats in church (guys), dressing appropriately for Mass, and many other advantages. To those of you who criticize without seeing, I personally challenge you to go to a parish with a good LT,talk to Father, the Youth Minister/Team, the teens themselves, and the congregation to see what they think about how LT affects their parish. You might be surprised how many people like LT.
Besides Pope John Paul II gave his blessing to LT and sometime his paternal admonishments. But he still gave his blessing. Please don’t criticize Pope John Paul II and then tell us you are an obedient, traditional Catholic who follows what the Church teachs. I mean it usually comes up on here quite a bit at CAF. The Pope said okay. It that not enough? Also the Holy Spirit is working in the Church, it must be to allow LT to raise up.And didn’t Jesus say He would always be with us always? The Holy Spirit would guide us and lead us. (Remember in Acts how Gamaliel cautioned Paul against going after the Christians. Gamaliel said if they are of human origin, they will die out. But if they are of God, you might very well be fighting God himself. He also said they were fellow Jews) This is just a reflection to be considered. It is not open for debate or discussion. The last part in the brackets.
Tell me if our Church is such a great church (Which it is) then why aren’t the parishes overflowing with Mass attendees? Why are parishes closing in many places in the U.S.? When a parish has a good and vibrant LIFE TEEN you will usually see parishes a little bit more alive. (Teens bring their parents, family, lapsed Catholic teen, un-churched, and other church friends.) Our faith is not a dead faith, it’s a living breathing experience of God’s love for us. And if LIFE TEEN can revitalize our parishes, bring back youthfulness to our senior members, bring more money into the collection, inspire people to volunteer for parish service, encourage vocations, foster a deep reverence (It’s there you may not see right away, remember teens want to look cool in front of their friends), going to Mass because they want to (parents aren’t forcing them anymore.Sometimes it’s the teens who force the parents to go to church.), help out in the liturgical ministries, live out their faith to other teens at school, give them courage to do so, set an example to their siblings, sometimes gets Father to be recharged in his ministry (teens do appreciate and thank him) , pray more often and for others, stay a little bit after Mass (when there isn’t a Life Night.), sometimes (Remember still teens) tell other people to be quiet, no cell phones, no hats in church (guys), dressing appropriately for Mass, and many other advantages. To those of you who criticize without seeing, I personally challenge you to go to a parish with a good LT,talk to Father, the Youth Minister/Team, the teens themselves, and the congregation to see what they think about how LT affects their parish. You might be surprised how many people like LT.
Besides Pope John Paul II gave his blessing to LT and sometime his paternal admonishments. But he still gave his blessing. Please don’t criticize Pope John Paul II and then tell us you are an obedient, traditional Catholic who follows what the Church teachs. I mean it usually comes up on here quite a bit at CAF. The Pope said okay. It that not enough? Also the Holy Spirit is working in the Church, it must be to allow LT to raise up.And didn’t Jesus say He would always be with us always? The Holy Spirit would guide us and lead us. (Remember in Acts how Gamaliel cautioned Paul against going after the Christians. Gamaliel said if they are of human origin, they will die out. But if they are of God, you might very well be fighting God himself. He also said they were fellow Jews) This is just a reflection to be considered. It is not open for debate or discussion. The last part in the brackets.
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benedictgal
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That is the point that I made several posts ago. The Church is in the world, but, she is outside of it. She is called to read the signs of the times, but, not change after every mode and fashion.
The Church is called to change the world, not the other way around. Yes, she uses the technology of the world to spread the mesage, but, she should not be a slave to every whim and wind.
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ethelzguy
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Benedictgal, you have cut and pasted these same passages so many times, I’m surprised you don’t just make them part of your signature.
Yes, we’ve all read them countless times. But they do not support your position as fact, only your opinion. You read a passage and take it to imply that anything you don’t like is wrong, while someone else reads the same words and sees that what they like is not prohibited.
We can do this all night if you like.
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benedictgal
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Pope John Paul also gave the Neocats his blessing and look at what happened to them.
By the way, I say this in all charity, please get your scrpture right. Gamaliel wasn’t talkning to Saul, he was talking to the Sanhedrin. Furthermore, while the movement may be bearing fruit, what it is doing to the Mass is an entirely different matter altogether. No one is questioning the movement itself; it’s how you are handling the Mass that is the problem, especially where the music is concerned.
Other than the LifeTeen Manual, none of you have produced any documentation from the Holy See that advocates your position on the music for LifeTeen. Even the words of Pope John Paul II, the WYD founder, are the exact opposite of what you are espousing.
How can you justify that?
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benedictgal
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Statistical date indicates that if a person repeats information 17 times, then the party to whom this information is being relayed should be ble to get the picture.Benedictgal, you have cut and pasted these same passages so many times, I’m surprised you don’t just make them part of your signature.
Yes, we’ve all read them countless times. But they do not support your position as fact, only your opinion. You read a passage and take it to imply that anything you don’t like is wrong, while someone else reads the same words and sees that what they like is not prohibited.
We can do this all night if you like.
Actually, if you had read the documents carefully, they do support what I’ve been saying. The problem is that there are those who have blinders on and don’t want to face the truth, even when those words come from someone they claimed espoused what they are doing.
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benedictgal
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And that is wrong. But, it is most unfortunate thet the ones making that charge are the ones who seem to subscribe to liturgical relativism.
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ethelzguy
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Show me where Rome has prohibited OCP published music?
I think you are just making stuff up and exaggerating to support your personal opinion.
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ethelzguy
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Sounded more like a backhand swipe at a Pope who’s legacy she doesn’t appreciate.Amen!!!
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SacredHeartFan
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ok since everyone is stubborn I am leaving this thread. I have made my argument and I hold to it!
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nate12387
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I have been keeping up with this thread a bit and I am unsubscribing to it. All that needs to be said has probably already been said and would venture to guess that nothing good is going to come out of this from here on out.
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