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StashLazarus
Guest
I respect that.
That’s why I don’t want to open that can of worms. I realize I’m always in a small minority on that one.
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That’s why I don’t want to open that can of worms. I realize I’m always in a small minority on that one.
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cfrancis
Guest
And you give verses that support limited atonement and the posters show how they don’t necessarily support limited atonement.
We’re at the point of clashing opinions…can we know the Truth?
R
Reformed
Guest
How do you reconcile these two verses on your position? Sometimes, it’s good to open the can of worms when you go fishing.
Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
My quibble is with the Calvinist dogma of Limited Atonement as defined Here:
The doctrine states that Jesus Christ’s substitutionary atonement on the cross is limited in scope to those who are predestined unto salvation and its primary benefits are not given to all of humanity but rather just believers.
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StashLazarus
Guest
So, you insist on opening another can of worms.How do you reconcile these two verses on your position? Sometimes, it’s good to open the can of worms when you go fishing.
Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Neither of those verses show that our sinful nature comes from Adam, and I don’t think Paul was speaking literally in the previous passage.
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With_Questions
Guest
No. You completely miss my point.
You are climbing all over Mr. Reformed for interpreting Scriptures that use the word “All” in such a way that they don’t include every last human being that inhabited the planted, when you do the same thing with Romans 3:23.
I think it is reasonable to conclude that All in the Bible does not always mean “every single last human being that occupied the planet”. Therefore, you should not be climbing over Mr. Reformed for him interpreting Scripture in the same manner as you and I do.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Not necessarily.
The point is that the word ALL is used twice in the same sentence.
Limited atonement can only be supported by stating that the ALL means two different things in the very same verses.
We can leave original sin out and still discuss the meaning with regards to limited atonement.
These two verses cannot be conformed to the doctrine of limited atonement.
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sandusky
Guest
Why you do that, CHESTERTONRULES???
R
Reformed
Guest
A paragraph is not sufficient to understand what Calvinists believe on the topic of limited atonement. Therefore, have fun studying the links below.
monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/Particular-Redemption/Limited-Atonement/
R
Reformed
Guest
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.
Revelation 5:9-10
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:14-16
Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father – that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ.
John Calvin Commentary on John 3:16
The Arminians say, ‘Christ died for all men.’ Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, ‘No, certainly not.’ We ask them the next question: Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer ‘No.’ They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, ‘No; Christ has died that any man may be saved if ?’ and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ’s death; we say, ‘No, my dear sir, it is you that do it.’ We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ’s death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.
Charles Spurgeon
Revelation 5:9-10
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:14-16
Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father – that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ.
John Calvin Commentary on John 3:16
The Arminians say, ‘Christ died for all men.’ Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, ‘No, certainly not.’ We ask them the next question: Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer ‘No.’ They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, ‘No; Christ has died that any man may be saved if ?’ and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ’s death; we say, ‘No, my dear sir, it is you that do it.’ We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ’s death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.
Charles Spurgeon
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cfrancis
Guest
Very nice opinions, those of Calvin and Spurgeon. Why is your theology built upon the opinions of these men?
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StashLazarus
Guest
Predestinationists tend to believe that there are some who are not children of God. These non children of God would be narcissistic since they were not given a spirit of love. They did not choose to be born that way anymore then St Theresa chose to be born kind hearted.
Original Sin or not, the soul-less among us are destroyed, but one could ask if they were ever really alive. It is the children of God who die through Adam (although I would say not literally), and it is the children of God who will live through Christ.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I’m sure that is true for many words. However, I listed specific scriptures.
No one has explained to me why the words in question mean something different than the generally accepted definitions.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I understand that this is what Calvinists teach.
However, it is not what the bible says.
There is nothing in the context of these scriptures to support this view.
If there is I would be interested in hearing it explained.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Why don’t you just tell what I have wrong?A paragraph is not sufficient to understand what Calvinists believe on the topic of limited atonement. Therefore, have fun studying the links below.
monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/Particular-Redemption/Limited-Atonement/
Did Jesus die for all men or not?
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mercygate
Guest
Quite. An important statement to make up front. AKA: “double” predestination. Some are born predestined, by the active will of God, to Hell. (If I understand correctly.) This is in contrast with the non-Calvinist position that ALL are predestined for Heaven but by the passive will of God may choose to reject the promise.
R
Reformed
Guest
I’m just participating on the thread topic of limited atonement. Calvin and Spurgeon are not rocks which I trust in. God is my rock.
R
Reformed
Guest
The Bible reveals that we are born into this world as children of wrath, children of disobedience, children of darkness, and children of the devil. To become children of God, we must be born again and adopted into God’s family through Christ alone.
9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, [2] and his own people [3] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1
Heirs with Christ
12 So then, brothers, [4] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons [5] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. - rom 8
Ephesians 1-2
Greeting
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful [1] in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.
Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love [6] toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
By Grace Through Faith
2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [7] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [8] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them…
R
Reformed
Guest
Please see post 19. Why did Jesus speak in parables according to the Scriptures?
R
Reformed
Guest
Nope, this is definetly not what Calvinists believe. It is not by the active will of God that most go to Hell. Please see Romans chapter 1 and chapter 2. All sinners freely choose to sin against God and his rightful rule because we are all born sinners. Hell is what we freely choose because we all freely choose to rebel and sin against God. But God has a great rescue mission for those who believe.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. - Rom 5
Who is the us highlighted in red above?
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