Limits of "Headship"

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+Again . . . as the original poster Chris . . . you are once more hiding behind sweeping generalities . . . and we here at CAF are still completely in the dark as to what your wife’s and your problem really is . . . every specific situation/problem has a solution or options for solutions specific to the individual situation/problem and the people involved . . .

The only thing I can gather from all your verbiage . . . is that you think you are right and as head of the household you feel . . . **as a final result **. . . your wife should do whatever you say . . . no matter what . . . Many a wife has followed such a husband into perdition/hell . . . because she hasn’t bothered to prayer:gopray2:fully think a situation through . . . and tried to gain a righteous understanding . . . in order to make an ordered mature adult righteous judgement before and in the Holy Presence of the Lord . . . as to whether to so follow her husband would result in a wholesome healthy well-ordered end for all involved . . . or a disordered and possible tragically destructive end . . . for which all would pay dearly . . .

There are some wonderful and sincerely helpful Catholic Christians here at CAF . . . but if you don’t feel you can be more honest and more forthcoming with us . . . I can’t see where further discussion . . .* while wandering about in the dark as to what on earth the real problem is .* . . can be of any real help . . . at this point it appears that the entire discussion has just become a fruitless exercise in futility . . .

. . . all for Jesus+​
 
Yes, yes, we all know all about the husbands’ obligation to love as Christ loved the Church, and when people did not submit to his Authority he still continued to love them endlessly. But saying so avoids the question of whether the Church had an obligation to submit to Christ’s authority or not.
Is the wife obligated to submit to your authority? like the Church has an obligation to submit to Christ’s authority?
Well, that depends entirely on how just Christ-like you really are. Just how Christ-like do you suppose that you really are?

If your wife is not feeling very obligated to submit to your authority, you just might be the only one on the block here who considers you to be Christ-like at all.

If your greatest concern is that your life partner needs to submit to your authority you very well may have far more in common with Caesar than Christ.

As for asking priests about child-rearing issues…
one would have to find a priest who had successfully married and parented and raised a child. Raising a child successfully is rocket science, not amateur night.
 
If your wife wants something ridiculous and harmful for the family, you should think of ways to make her see that that don’t involve telling her you’re the boss. If you’re the one who wants something ridiculous and harmful, you should be the one “submitting” to her. If you have a disagreement about some neutral thing, where either way of doing things works, you need to find a way to resolve the conflict and come to some kind of a compromise.
Agreed. “Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.”
Hasn’t headship been redefined in the 20th century to mutual submission/self sacrificing love?
Pope John Paul II condemns the historical tendency of men to dominate women as a consequence of sin, one that the redeemed must strive in every generation to overcome:
The biblical description in the Book of Genesis outlines the truth about the consequences of man’s sin, as it is shown by the disturbance of that original relationship between man and woman which corresponds to their individual dignity as persons. A human being, whether male or female, is a person, and therefore, “the only creature on earth which God willed for its own sake”; and at the same time this unique and unrepeatable creature “cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of self”. Here begins the relationship of “communion” in which the “unity of the two” and the personal dignity of both man and woman find expression. Therefore when we read in the biblical description the words addressed to the woman: “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” (Gen 3:16), we discover a break and a constant threat precisely in regard to this “unity of the two” which corresponds to the dignity of the image and likeness of God in both of them. But this threat is more serious for the woman, since domination takes the place of “being a sincere gift” and therefore living “for” the other: “he shall rule over you”. This “domination” indicates the disturbance and loss of the stability of that fundamental equality which the man and the woman possess in the “unity of the two”: and this is especially to the disadvantage of the woman, whereas only the equality resulting from their dignity as persons can give to their mutual relationship the character of an authentic “communio personarum”. While the violation of this equality, which is both a gift and a right deriving from God the Creator, involves an element to the disadvantage of the woman, at the same time it also diminishes the true dignity of the man. Here we touch upon an extremely sensitive point in the dimension of that “ethos” which was originally inscribed by the Creator in the very creation of both of them in his own image and likeness.
This statement in Genesis 3:16 is of great significance. It implies a reference to the mutual relationship of man and woman in marriage. It refers to the desire born in the atmosphere of spousal love whereby the woman’s “sincere gift of self” is responded to and matched by a corresponding “gift” on the part of the husband. Only on the basis of this principle can both of them, and in particular the woman, “discover themselves” as a true “unity of the two” according to the dignity of the person. The matrimonial union requires respect for and a perfecting of the true personal subjectivity of both of them. The woman cannot become the “object” of “domination” and male “possession”. But the words of the biblical text directly concern original sin and its lasting consequences in man and woman. Burdened by hereditary sinfulness, they bear within themselves the constant “inclination to sin”, the tendency to go against the moral order which corresponds to the rational nature and dignity of man and woman as persons. This tendency is expressed in a threefold concupiscence, which Saint John defines as the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life (cf. 1 Jn 2:16). The words of the Book of Genesis quoted previously (3: 16) show how this threefold concupiscence, the “inclination to sin”, will burden the mutual relationship of man and woman.
These words of Genesis refer directly to marriage, but indirectly they concern the different spheres of social life: the situations in which the woman remains disadvantaged or discriminated against by the fact of being a woman. The revealed truth concerning the creation of the human being as male and female constitutes the principal argument against all the objectively injurious and unjust situations which contain and express the inheritance of the sin which all human beings bear within themselves. The books of Sacred Scripture confirm in various places the actual existence of such situations and at the same time proclaim the need for conversion, that is to say, for purification from evil and liberation from sin: from what offends neighbour, what “diminishes” man, not only the one who is offended but also the one who causes the offence. This is the unchangeable message of the Word revealed by God. In it is expressed the biblical “ethos” until the end of time…
The personal resources of femininity are certainly no less than the resources of masculinity: they are merely different. Hence a woman, as well as a man, must understand her “fulfilment” as a person, her dignity and vocation, on the basis of these resources, according to the richness of the femininity which she received on the day of creation and which she inherits as an expression of the “image and likeness of God” that is specifically hers. The inheritance of sin suggested by the words of the Bible - “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” - can be conquered only by following this path. The overcoming of this evil inheritance is, generation after generation, the task of every human being, whether woman or man. For whenever man is responsible for offending a woman’s personal dignity and vocation, he acts contrary to his own personal dignity and his own vocation.
In the same document, Pope John Paul II insists on the mutual submission of spouses to one another:
Ephesians 5:21-33] is addressed to the spouses as real women and men. It reminds them of the “ethos” of spousal love which goes back to the divine institution of marriage from the “beginning”. Corresponding to the truth of this institution is the exhortation: “Husbands, love your wives”, love them because of that special and unique bond whereby in marriage a man and a woman become “one flesh” (Gen 2:24; Eph 5:31). In this love there is a fundamental affirmation of the woman as a person. This affirmation makes it possible for the female personality to develop fully and be enriched. This is precisely the way Christ acts as the bridegroom of the Church; he desires that she be “in splendour, without spot or wrinkle” (Eph 5:27). One can say that this fully captures the whole “style” of Christ in dealing with women. Husbands should make their own the elements of this style in regard to their wives; analogously, all men should do the same in regard to women in every situation. In this way both men and women bring about “the sincere gift of self”.
The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife” (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the “head” of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give “himself up for her” (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.
In relation to the “old” this is evidently something “new”: it is an innovation of the Gospel. We find various passages in which the apostolic writings express this innovation, even though they also communicate what is “old”: what is rooted in the religious tradition of Israel, in its way of understanding and explaining the sacred texts, as for example the second chapter of the Book of Genesis.
The apostolic letters are addressed to people living in an environment marked by that same traditional way of thinking and acting. The “innovation” of Christ is a fact: it constitutes the unambiguous content of the evangelical message and is the result of the Redemption. However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ”, and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour and customs. This is a call which from that time onwards, does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. Saint Paul not only wrote: “In Christ Jesus… there is no more man or woman”, but also wrote: “There is no more slave or freeman”. Yet how many generations were needed for such a principle to be realized in the history of humanity through the abolition of slavery! And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery to which individuals and peoples are subjected, which have not yet disappeared from history?
But the challenge presented by the “ethos” of the Redemption is clear and definitive. All the reasons in favour of the “subjection” of woman to man in marriage must be understood in the sense of a “mutual subjection” of both “out of reverence for Christ”. The measure of true spousal love finds its deepest source in Christ, who is the Bridegroom of the Church, his Bride.
The Venerable Pope John Paul II was right to insist that Ephesians 5:22 can only be understood in light of 5:21, which insists on mutual submission. Most English translations of 5:22 are misleading when they say “Wives, submit your husbands as to the Lord” because there is no verb in 5:22. The verb is deliberately borrowed from 5:21. What St. Paul really says is “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, to your husbands, as to the Lord…”

It is clear from the whole passage, Ephesians 5:21-33, that being a “head” means serving as Christ served, giving oneself for the sake of the one being served.

Even if the word “head” meant “leader,” one must take into account how radically Christ redefines leadership. The pagan paterfamilias was a dictator, having the power of life and death over his wife, children, and servants, sometimes quite literally (as in the case of infant exposure). Christ utterly rejects this kind of “leadership” and turns it upside down; the true leader is one who serves and gives his own life up for the sake of others: “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

St. Paul teaches the same: “Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

When Paul tells husbands, in his epistle to the Ephesians, “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,” we must not only take note of the self-sacrificial wording in the immediate context, but also remember how he defined true love elsewhere: “Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.” The Christian husband, the husband who loves, therefore, is really the opposite of the pagan paterfamilias.
Can we just say that in an issue with no clear moral absolutes, strongly held opposing beliefs by both spouses and no possibility of compromise, is there ever a case where the “headship” of the husband can be applied?
Husbands can and should be servants who give their lives for the sake of others.
its seems that men are being held to the unreachable goal of loving as Christ
If we believe what the Lord teaches, this goal is not “unreachable”: “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another… This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.” 🙂
 
+Hi Aspirant,

Pope John Paul the Great had such an extraordinarily enlightened soul . . . do you have a link in the Vatican Website for the above quote . . . ? . . . I’d like to add it to my library of his writings . . .

*Dedicated to the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+​
 
+Hi Aspirant,

Pope John Paul the Great had such an extraordinarily enlightened soul . . . do you have a link in the Vatican Website for the above quote . . . ? . . . I’d like to add it to my library of his writings . . .

*Dedicated to the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+​
Go here. It is an apostolic letter by JP2. Scroll down to section/paragraph number 10 for the first quote given.
 
Go here. It is an apostolic letter by JP2. Scroll down to section/paragraph number 10 for the first quote given.
Yes, Mulieris Dignitatem, which Pug linked (thanks, Pug!). The second passage is section #24. 🙂
 
I am honestly puzzled by the almost hostile assumption by respondents here that the very question of what in practical terms “headship” would look like implies a desire to mercilessly dominate one’s wife.

Only one respondent (flyingfish) gave some practical examples of headship in action:

“Leading the family in prayer, maybe choosing some religious books to read with the wife, insisting on going without to make life better for the kids and the wife.”

And who could argue with those things - BUT- how do they differ from the responsibilities of any other member of a family???

Headship, in any other context does not imply a sinful desire to dominate. The head of a company, should always be acting with the best interests of the company in mind. A good manager often puts in longer hours, then carries home the stress of his/her responsibilities. That that headship implies responsibilities that include decision making in no way should mean that those decisions are being made without a full understanding of the issues that are facing those on all levels of the company.

Please do not assume the worst of someone asking the question.

To the poster who claimed that loving as Christ loved IS a reachable goal. Get real! That is almost blasphemous!. That a husband should give his life for his wife and family is a given. But it is a lifelong and daily effort to do that fully. We’ll never live that to the extent that Christ did!

But Christ’s headship involved more than giving his life on the cross. His headship, (whether anyone chose to accept and follow it is another question) also had real authority. Yes anyone could reject that, and Christ would have patiently loved them anyway, but it does not diminish his very real authority.

IF a man has any “authority” in leading a family, I don’t see that as diminishing his responsibility to love his wife and family even if they reject him and his headship at every opportunity.

In the past the emphasis may well have been on “wives, obey your husband” to the exclusion of “Husbands love your wives”. And that clearly was wrong. But has it gone too far in the other direction now? Is there anything left of the term “head of family” that resembles the use of the term in any other context?

No, Jesus_123, I do not feel it appropriate or necessary to give specific personal details of how this topic is playing out in my family. Everyone has had plenty of issues of their own from which they can examine how their understanding of headship would be applied or not applied.

I think we could all benefit if the issue was discussed in a way that does not assume ill intent on the part of husbands.
 
Leading the family in prayer, maybe choosing some religious books to read with the wife, insisting on going without to make life better for the kids and the wife.

Hasn’t headship been redefined in the 20th century to mutual submission/self sacrificing love?
There was a lot of development in the 20th century, preceded even by specific affirmation by a 19th Pope (Leo XIII) that a woman was not like a child, always underaged, but an adult person to be treated as such (which wasn’t that knew, actually), but Ephesians, Corinthians and the rest were the same since the beginning (along with “submit to one another”) and I would not use the word “redefine”.

Personally, I am glad that we don’t speak about “lord and master” any more and I have no desire to be someone’s boss (as much as I am willing to be a leader always when chosen to be it), and the kind of relationship I dream of is where decisions are mutual and the brainstorm is natural with both parties heading for common good, not for singular affirmation, because both parties are simply dedicated to common good and the good of each other… and I’d hate to be such a person that would make a wife afraid or unwilling to speak openly… Say, that’d be like cutting off your own hand (ironically, in the middle ages, when they had judicial duels, they would allow male vs female combat, they’d however strap a man’s one hand to his body and put him to the belt in the ground as in she was his half… I very much feel that way).

Still, when I read some of the posts in discussions similar to this one, I really get the impression that in some opinions, the man’s duty is to affirm and validate his wife’s unilateral decisions, shut up and obey and worship at the feet of her freedom, the other side being expected to guess when it’s the time to give space (“space” a big code word for a whole concept) and when to come up with all sorts of emotional reassurance (some of them seeming more of a therapy form). I believe that’s way too far, it has something to do with feminism, with extremes of civil rights movements and so on. The goals of husband and wife are mutual salvation, good of the offspring, mutual good… *Not *validation, affirmation and promotion of the woman’s (or man’s) syntony. That is not what we owe to the other person, husband or wife or anybody. We do not owe them a good feeling, we owe them good. When good conflicts with good feeling, good takes precedence. And we certainly owe something to truth and there is value in reaching substantively good decisions, it doesn’t come down to allowing one party to feel good about whatever decisions he or she unilaterally wishes to make (and I doubt we’d have much of a problem following this concept with regard to a wife’s attitude towards her husband). I wouldn’t love a woman if I didn’t listen to her, but I wouldn’t love her either if I were offering her the good feeling about whatever she chose to think or do regardless of the goodness of (the results of) it, either.
 
I am honestly puzzled by the almost hostile assumption by respondents here that the very question of what in practical terms “headship” would look like implies a desire to mercilessly dominate one’s wife.

Only one respondent (flyingfish) gave some practical examples of headship in action:

“Leading the family in prayer, maybe choosing some religious books to read with the wife, insisting on going without to make life better for the kids and the wife.”

And who could argue with those things - BUT- how do they differ from the responsibilities of any other member of a family???

Headship, in any other context does not imply a sinful desire to dominate. The head of a company, should always be acting with the best interests of the company in mind. A good manager often puts in longer hours, then carries home the stress of his/her responsibilities. That that headship implies responsibilities that include decision making in no way should mean that those decisions are being made without a full understanding of the issues that are facing those on all levels of the company.

Please do not assume the worst of someone asking the question.

To the poster who claimed that loving as Christ loved IS a reachable goal. Get real! That is almost blasphemous!. That a husband should give his life for his wife and family is a given. But it is a lifelong and daily effort to do that fully. We’ll never live that to the extent that Christ did!

But Christ’s headship involved more than giving his life on the cross. His headship, (whether anyone chose to accept and follow it is another question) also had real authority. Yes anyone could reject that, and Christ would have patiently loved them anyway, but it does not diminish his very real authority.

IF a man has any “authority” in leading a family, I don’t see that as diminishing his responsibility to love his wife and family even if they reject him and his headship at every opportunity.

In the past the emphasis may well have been on “wives, obey your husband” to the exclusion of “Husbands love your wives”. And that clearly was wrong. But has it gone too far in the other direction now? Is there anything left of the term “head of family” that resembles the use of the term in any other context?

No, Jesus_123, I do not feel it appropriate or necessary to give specific personal details of how this topic is playing out in my family. Everyone has had plenty of issues of their own from which they can examine how their understanding of headship would be applied or not applied.

I think we could all benefit if the issue was discussed in a way that does not assume ill intent on the part of husbands.
In all charity, you can’t just come bouncing onto the forum with a vague proposition and expect it to be defined and laid out for you as you wish. Your unwillingness to explain what exactly your issue is only shows that you are not able to receive constructive suggestions regarding the “question” that you posed.

As others have already stated, it appears that you only want a postion as “head” of the family ascertained, regardless of how your wife feels…otherwise you would at least state what the actual issue/concern is and allow others on here to assist you with it.

Finally, we are ALL called to love as Christ loved…many Saints have done so and to say that is not reachable is an affront to those who have done so and those that aspire to.
 
Go here. It is an apostolic letter by JP2. Scroll down to section/paragraph number 10 for the first quote given.
Thanks much for the link Pug . . . and thanks much Aspirant for sharing that marvelous 🙂 material of Pope John Paul the Great’s . . .

*In dedication to the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+​
 
I personally don’t get the impression that the OP just wants to lord it over his wife. In the given example, he’s not even asking if he has the right as head of the family to insist that his wife homeschool, but if he has the right to insist that they both speak to a respected pastor about the situation. I am a woman, and I don’t see that as out of line.
 
I personally don’t get the impression that the OP just wants to lord it over his wife. In the given example, he’s not even asking if he has the right as head of the family to insist that his wife homeschool, but if he has the right to insist that they both speak to a respected pastor about the situation. I am a woman, and I don’t see that as out of line.
Did you read his other posts?
 
Dominicandinah, I am sorry, but your comment is in fact lacking in charity as it clearly is assuming ill will on my part. I have not made a single statement asserting that a husband has a “right” to a particular “authority” or not. That is precisely the question I am bringing to the forum. In fact I have not even stated whether I am the husband or the wife or neither of the above in any situation at hand if there is one! Bringing particulars in to the situation I am afraid could bias the outcome as people’s emotions would run one way or the other with the issue(s). Yet you jump to the assertion that:

"Your unwillingness to explain what exactly your issue is only shows that you are not able to receive constructive suggestions regarding the “question” that you posed.

As others have already stated, it appears that you only want a postion as “head” of the family ascertained, regardless of how your wife feels…otherwise you would at least state what the actual issue/concern is and allow others on here to assist you with it."

Your comment is clearly prejudiced in assuming 1) I am the husband and 2) that I would be seeking a “position as head of the family…regardless of how…wife feels” Really, how very insulting of you. Overly touchy at the least!

If I were to ask my bank what rights and priviledges I have associated with my credit card, it does not mean my true desire is to rob the bank!

To imply that by not coming forward with a particular issue is showing some sort of close mindedness on my part is just unfair. It also shows to me that you believe that the collective wisdom out in the forum can only give advice when given particulars. That is too close to situation ethics to be comfortable for me. I would hope that forum participants seek truth first then strive to apply it to situations rather than examining a situation then finding a view of truth that might apply.

Heaven forbid that we could only learn our catechism in the manner you suggest as the only way possible.
 
Dominicandinah, I am sorry, but your comment is in fact lacking in charity as it clearly is assuming ill will on my part. I have not made a single statement asserting that a husband has a “right” to a particular “authority” or not. That is precisely the question I am bringing to the forum. In fact I have not even stated whether I am the husband or the wife or neither of the above in any situation at hand if there is one! Bringing particulars in to the situation I am afraid could bias the outcome as people’s emotions would run one way or the other with the issue(s). Yet you jump to the assertion that:

"Your unwillingness to explain what exactly your issue is only shows that you are not able to receive constructive suggestions regarding the “question” that you posed.

As others have already stated, it appears that you only want a postion as “head” of the family ascertained, regardless of how your wife feels…otherwise you would at least state what the actual issue/concern is and allow others on here to assist you with it."

Your comment is clearly prejudiced in assuming 1) I am the husband and 2) that I would be seeking a “position as head of the family…regardless of how…wife feels” Really, how very insulting of you. Overly touchy at the least!

If I were to ask my bank what rights and priviledges I have associated with my credit card, it does not mean my true desire is to rob the bank!

To imply that by not coming forward with a particular issue is showing some sort of close mindedness on my part is just unfair. It also shows to me that you believe that the collective wisdom out in the forum can only give advice when given particulars. That is too close to situation ethics to be comfortable for me. I would hope that forum participants seek truth first then strive to apply it to situations rather than examining a situation then finding a view of truth that might apply.

Heaven forbid that we could only learn our catechism in the manner you suggest as the only way possible.
Heaven forbid I’m allowed to post my opinions on what you have shared with us…

Sorry you cannot handle constructive criticism on your issues. You and your concerns (whatever they may actually be) will be in my prayers!
 
Headship in the family is very different than being the boss in a business. As John Paul says:
However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.
I don’t see that the husband has the right to unilaterally impose his will upon the wife any more than the wife has the right to unilaterally impose her will upon the husband. Imposing one’s will is not any part of what headship in the family is truly about.

As to the question in the OP, it cannot be realistically answered until we know what the wife’s objections to the request are. She might have a very good reason for not wanting to talk to the pastor.
 
Well this is getting pretty far from the specific question. But, and I do not want to get into particulars, lets say as an example that husband feels very strongly that the child should be homeschooled for fear of the social environment and the wife feels strongly that the child should go to public school thinking the child will hold up just fine to the social pressures. Neither is a moral absolute. Both feel very strongly and wife feels strong enough that she will act with or without husbands approval.

Let us also assume that counseling efforts have been tried and for years, and not helped.

I am not even asking if the husband has authority to make the final decision (which is a valid question in itself, but not being asked here), just asking if it is proper, for the sake of the welfare of the children, to insist that the wife at least hear what the pastor would have to say about the matter.

If this example is going to send folks off on a tangent, perhaps someone can give an example of something that is not a clear moral absolute but where the couple has exhausted efforts to resolve and there is no chance of compromise . Yes, yes, we all know all about the husbands’ obligation to love as Christ loved the Church, and when people did not submit to his Authority he still continued to love them endlessly. But saying so avoids the question of whether the Church had an obligation to submit to Christ’s authority or not.
Thank you for clarifying…

No, I do not believe it is right to *insist *that a third opinion be shared on a marital decision. This is *using *a figurehead in the faith to *justify *one of the spouse’s opinion.
If, since you mentioned, it is not “moral absolute”, then what good would a third opinion do except to cause one of you to become *bitter *toward that figurehead in the faith?.. *ESPECIALLY *since you’ve said this is an ongoing issue that has already been taken to counseling and has not yet been resolved.

I don’t see any good coming out of this action.
 
dominicandinah

Your opinions I seek and welcome. It is your unfounded and uncharitable assumptions of ill will on my part that I am happy to do without!
 
If I were to ask my bank what rights and priviledges I have associated with my credit card, it does not mean my true desire is to rob the bank!
Marriage is a state of life partnership. Partnership is mutual submission.
The Catechism teaches that marriage is mutual submission.

Mutual submission does NOT claim the “right to insist” (the right to demand) that a partner ask advice on child rearing from an inexperienced non-authority on child rearing any more than one would claim the *right to insist * (right to demand) a partner *ask advice on neurosurgery technique from Joe the Plumber. *

Your question is by no means analogous to asking about your credit card rights and privileges at your bank. Your question is analogous to one asking ridiculous questions about credit cards from the point of view of one who has absolutely no idea what a bank is at all.
 
“Mutual submission” as we often hear it described today is a fairly new concept. All writings of Popes prior to JPII were pretty strongly angled toward a husband’s leadership and wife’s obligation to follow. Casti Connubbi for example, refers to a wife owing her husband “humble and trusting obedience”… a far cry from the “mutual submission” concept meaning there is no real authority in the home. A husband submits to his wife by sacrificial leadership, she submits by following. It is not the same type of submission. Doesn’t Ephesians 5 say that wives are to submit to their husbands as to the Lord? Obviously the Lord doesn’t dominate his people in a negative way or “throw his weight around”, and neither should a husband. But is it so out of line for a husband to want he and his wife to discuss an issue with their pastor?
 
formercatholic

ouch, be nice!

There is nearly 200o years of tradition putting a more hierarchical understanding on the term “headship”. If JP2 has brought us to a new understanding, well, that’s fine, can’t exactly dismiss him can we? To have questions about it all does not make one a wife hater!
 
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