List of abuses and disappointments after 8 months in a new diocese

[Joab_Anias]

I know some of these may seen trivial but over an 8 month period they are just building up and I am unsure what I should do so I have come here for some advice.

1. 
   *]EMHC’s filling chalices.
   *]EMHC’s receiving before the priest and approaching altar before GIRM stipulates.
   *]EMHC’s offering communion to people with arms crossed.
   *]EMHC’s reposing the reserved Eucharist to the tabernacle.
   *]Liturgical dance.
   *]Glass vessels on the altar instead of precious metals.
   *]Meet and greet before every Mass.
   *]Choir ministers participating as EMHC’s/dual ministries in the same Mass.
   *]Tabernacles off to the side of the altar instead of in the prominent center of the sacristy
   *]Never the “I confess” at the penitential rite not even during Lent.
   *]Never a commemoration of the Pope
   *]No penitential service during Lent or mention of sin period.
   *]No silence after communion.
   *]Gloria often omitted.
   *]Selling art from the ambo after Mass.
   *]Having congregation children gather around altar during consecration.
   *]No mention of the presentation of the Lord, St. Joseph or St Mary on those feast days.
   *]Unattended ashes left for self imposition on Ash Wed.
   *]Leavened bread presented as licit Eucharist on Holy Thursday! uch:
   
   Peace and thanks for any advice. All is welcome.

 

[Kevirish01]

“Peace and thanks for any advice. All is welcome.”

Yes, I would contact Catholics United for the Faith and see if you can find a loyal, orthodox parish in your neck-of-the-woods. If you aren’t aware of this great apostolate they are totally loyal to the Pope and the Magisterium and have chapters throughout the country (even Milaukee - sp?). Their number is toll-free. Just leave a message with all of your contact info (ph. # - email) and they will get back to you.

Ph: 1-800-MY-FAITH Web: cuf.org/Home.asp

Peace to you – I will pray for this cross you are bearing with our Lord in this diocese.

Kev

 

[LRThunder]

I know some of these may seen trivial but over an 8 month period they are just building up and I am unsure what I should do so I have come here for some advice.

1. 
   *]EMHC’s filling chalices.
   *]EMHC’s receiving before the priest and approaching altar before GIRM stipulates.
   *]EMHC’s offering communion to people with arms crossed.
   *]EMHC’s reposing the reserved Eucharist to the tabernacle.
   *]Liturgical dance.
   *]Glass vessels on the altar instead of precious metals.
   *]Meet and greet before every Mass.
   *]Choir ministers participating as EMHC’s/dual ministries in the same Mass.
   *]Tabernacles off to the side of the altar instead of in the prominent center of the sacristy
   *]Never the “I confess” at the penitential rite not even during Lent.
   *]Never a commemoration of the Pope
   *]No penitential service during Lent or mention of sin period.
   *]No silence after communion.
   *]Gloria often omitted.
   *]Selling art from the ambo after Mass.
   *]Having congregation children gather around altar during consecration.
   *]No mention of the presentation of the Lord, St. Joseph or St Mary on those feast days.
   *]Unattended ashes left for self imposition on Ash Wed.
   *]Leavened bread presented as licit Eucharist on Holy Thursday! uch:
   
   Peace and thanks for any advice. All is welcome.

1. 
   Some of these might not be abuses per se.
   
   #9, I don’t know how that would be an abuse. The tabernacle at my parish is in the sanctuary, off to the side.
   
   #10, The Confeitor (sp?) which begins with “I confess,” is just one option of the Pentitential Rite, so not using it isn’t an abuse.
   
   #14, In Advent and Lent, the Gloria is not sung, and obviously also not at daily Mass. The Gloria is supposed to be sung during the other seasons (Ordinary Time, Christmas, Easter)
   
   These are the ones that I don’t think are abuses, the rest you mentioned definitely appear to be abuses, though.

 

[Corki]

Some of these might not be abuses per se.

#9, I don’t know how that would be an abuse. The tabernacle at my parish is in the sanctuary, off to the side.

#10, The Confeitor (sp?) which begins with “I confess,” is just one option of the Pentitential Rite, so not using it isn’t an abuse.

#14, In Advent and Lent, the Gloria is not sung, and obviously also not at daily Mass. The Gloria is supposed to be sung during the other seasons (Ordinary Time, Christmas, Easter)

These are the ones that I don’t think are abuses, the rest you mentioned definitely appear to be abuses, though.

I don’t think #7 is technically an abuse either as long as it is before Mass starts. It’s just tacky and annoying.

#12 is not an abuse as long as there are regularly scheduled Confession times. The penetential service is often just a way to get more people to go to Confession but not a requirement at any time of the year. Not mentioning sin is neglectful on the part of the pastor but not an abuse per se.

Have you tried another parish?

 

[Phemie]

I know some of these may seen trivial but over an 8 month period they are just building up and I am unsure what I should do so I have come here for some advice.

1. 
   *]Choir ministers participating as EMHC’s/dual ministries in the same Mass.
   
   That’s not an abuse. The GIRM doesn’t say they can’t perform two ministries, just that it’s better if they don’t. 60% of our choir members are either readers or EMHCs, some are both. It’s a given that at almost any Sunday Mass one of them will be both in the choir & in another ministry. That’s the reality of a small parish with many people involved in several ministries.
   
   *]Tabernacles off to the side of the altar instead of in the prominent center of the sacristy
   Not an abuse.
   
   *]Never the “I confess” at the penitential rite not even during Lent.
   Not an abuse.
   *]Never a commemoration of the Pope
   Not sure what you mean by that.
   *]No penitential service during Lent or mention of sin period.
   As long as confession was available there is no rule that Form II of reconciliation must be offered.
   
   *]Gloria often omitted.
   It’s only used on Sundays outside Advent and Lent and on feast days.
   
   Peace and thanks for any advice. All is welcome.

 

[Ilroy]

I know some of these may seen trivial but over an 8 month period they are just building up and** I am unsure what I should do** so I have come here for some advice.

Peace and thanks for any advice. All is welcome.

What needs done first is to schedule an appt. with the pastor of the parish and bring the ones that are actual abuses. In all charity you might ask him to help you understand why these things are being done…less confrontational…and be ready with the proper documents as to why they are not to be done. This may go absolutely nowhere with the priest but it is the first step.

If this doesn’t work, in all charity inform the Bishop. If you have a good Bishop then this should get results, although you may not be informed of what is done. Give it time too…the Bishop will likely try to work with him in a calm way to get him inline after getting his side of things.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Some of these might not be abuses per se.

#9, I don’t know how that would be an abuse. The tabernacle at my parish is in the sanctuary, off to the side.

#10, The Confeitor (sp?) which begins with “I confess,” is just one option of the Pentitential Rite, so not using it isn’t an abuse.

#14, In Advent and Lent, the Gloria is not sung, and obviously also not at daily Mass. The Gloria is supposed to be sung during the other seasons (Ordinary Time, Christmas, Easter)

These are the ones that I don’t think are abuses, the rest you mentioned definitely appear to be abuses, though.

Thanks for the reply, I know those things. Thats why I said list of abuses AND disappointments. I miss the “I confess” especially during Lent.

about #9:

The general law of the Church provides norms concerning the tabernacle and the place for the reservation of the Eucharist that express the importance Christians place on the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. The Code of Canon Law directs that the Eucharist be reserved "in a part of the church that is prominent, conspicuous, beautifully decorated and suitable for prayer."94 It directs that regularly there be “only one tabernacle” in the church.95 It should be worthy of the Blessed Sacrament—beautifully designed and in harmony with the overall decor of the rest of the church. To provide for the security of the Blessed Sacrament the tabernacle should be “solid,” “immovable,” “opaque,” and "locked."96 The tabernacle may be situated on a fixed pillar or stand, or it may be attached to or embedded in one of the walls. A special oil lamp or a lamp with a wax candle burns continuously near the tabernacle as an indication of Christ’s presence.97

The place of reservation should be a space that is dedicated to Christ present in the Eucharist and that is designed so that the attention of one praying there is drawn to the tabernacle that houses the presence of the Lord. Iconography can be chosen from the rich treasury of symbolism that is associated with the Eucharist.

The Location of the Tabernacle: There is a number of possible spaces suitable for Eucharistic reservation. The revised General Instruction of the Roman Missal states that it is more appropriate that the tabernacle in which the "Blessed Sacrament is reserved not be on the altar on which Mass is celebrated."98 The bishop is to determine where the tabernacle will be placed and to give further direction. The bishop may decide that the tabernacle be placed in the sanctuary apart from the altar of celebration or in a separate chapel suitable for adoration and for the private prayer of the faithful. In making his determination, the bishop will consider the importance of the assembly’s ability to focus on the Eucharistic action, the piety of the people, and the custom of the area.99 The location also should allow for easy access by people in wheelchairs and by those who have other disabilities.

In exercising his responsibility for the liturgical life of the diocese, the diocesan bishop may issue further directives regarding the reservation of the Eucharist. Before parishes and their liturgical consultants begin the educational component and the discussion process, it will be important for all those involved to know what specific directives or guidelines the diocesan bishop has issued. Good communication at the first stage of the process will help to avoid confusion or conflict between the parish’s expectations, the consultant’s experience, and diocesan directives.
usccb.org/liturgy/lschaptertwo.shtml

The actual canon is disregarded in its literal interpretation to have the tabernacle obscured or out of the sanctuary as it is in many places imho

Peace.

 

[Joab_Anias]

What needs done first is to schedule an appt. with the pastor of the parish and bring the ones that are actual abuses. In all charity you might ask him to help you understand why these things are being done…less confrontational…and be ready with the proper documents as to why they are not to be done. This may go absolutely nowhere with the priest but it is the first step.

If this doesn’t work, in all charity inform the Bishop. If you have a good Bishop then this should get results, although you may not be informed of what is done. Give it time too…the Bishop will likely try to work with him in a calm way to get him inline after getting his side of things.

Thank you for the reply. I sent my Pastor as charitable email as I could (still being upset by seeing leavened bread in a cardboard box for communion on Holy Thursday) with my concerns this morning and await a reply.

Here is what I wrote:

Hello Fr. *** 3/12/08

Please don’t get the wrong impression about what I am about to say. I am not a legalist or critical of priests or expect them all to be canon lawyers but I think I have a problem in this diocese because of things I have seen since coming here last June. I would appreciate any advice about the following things (I know some of which are trivial but they are adding up and contributing to my scruples).

These are all things I have seen take place at either ****

EMHC’s filling chalices in disregard to the GIRM.
EMHC’s reposing the reserved Eucharist to the tabernacle in disregard of the GIRM.
EMHC’s receiving before the priest and approaching altar before GIRM stipulates.
EMHC’s offering communion to people with arms crossed.
Liturgical dance.
Glass vessels on the altar instead of precious metal as prescribed by the GIRM.
Choir ministers participating as EMHC’s/dual ministries in the same Mass.
Having congregation children gather around altar during consecration.
Never the “I confess” at the penitential rite not even during Lent.
Never a commemoration of the Pope
No penitential service during Lent or mention of sin period.
No silence after communion.
Gloria often omitted.
Selling art from the ambo after Mass.
Meet and greet before every Mass.
Tabernacles off to the side of the altar instead of in the prominent center of the sacristy
No mention of the presentation of the Lord, St. Joseph or St Mary on those feast days.
Unattended ashes left for self imposition on Ash Wed.
Leavened bread presented as licit Eucharist on Holy Thursday! (I was so confused over this that I was compelled to leave the Mass).
No crucifix in the sacristy.

Thank you,

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks and peace.

 

[Joab_Anias]

I don’t think #7 is technically an abuse either as long as it is before Mass starts. It’s just tacky and annoying.

#12 is not an abuse as long as there are regularly scheduled Confession times. The penetential service is often just a way to get more people to go to Confession but not a requirement at any time of the year. Not mentioning sin is neglectful on the part of the pastor but not an abuse per se.

Have you tried another parish?

Right. Thank you. Just disappointments I felt I should express as lacking for me. I seem to be clarifying what is a disappiontment and abuse. This was not the intent of making this post. Thanks for the clarifications just the same though. Its helpful to hear it.

Seeing the leavened bread in a cardboard box brought all those things back to mind as disappointments. Perhaps thats a problem I need to work on.

Thanks again.

 

[ac23]

What needs done first is to schedule an appt. with the pastor of the parish and bring the ones that are actual abuses. In all charity you might ask him to help you understand why these things are being done…less confrontational…and be ready with the proper documents as to why they are not to be done. This may go absolutely nowhere with the priest but it is the first step.

If this doesn’t work, in all charity inform the Bishop. If you have a good Bishop then this should get results, although you may not be informed of what is done. Give it time too…the Bishop will likely try to work with him in a calm way to get him inline after getting his side of things.

I’m in a similar situation to the OP except that I’ve lived within the Los Angeles Archdiocese my whole life and am just recently finding out about what is, for lack of a better phrase, “messed up” over here.

I read through REDEMPTIONIS SACRAMENTUM and made a list of what occurs within my home parish. I plan on reading through the GIRM as well before I present my case to the pastor.

 

[LilyM]

The leavened bread one is extremely serious. It is more than illicit, it in fact invalidates the sacrament entirely, making it no sacrament at all. In a Latin Catholic Mass it is improper matter for the Eucharist, and proper matter is one of the fundamental requirements for validity.

Meaning the priest totally didn’t fulfil his single most important duty, which is to provide the sacraments. Regardless of how many prayers he said or how well he said them it wasn’t a valid Eucharist he celebrated

I’d actually raise this issue on its own with him, and pronto.

 

[Cabin4]

Please, please, contact your Bishop!!!

 

[Crumpy]

I would suggest, find a parish where these sorts of things do not go on.

I stopped going to Mass about four years ago for instances of the priest in my parish (and then priests elsewhere) preaching that contradicts the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

This was and is very upsetting to me. In these forums and elsewhere I’ve been getting the one-sided advice that my decision was wrong, and basically, that I should grin and bear it.

Except for a couple more instances that I found in the local Catholic newspaper, I was just worn out and ready to head back into the confessional and join a different parish.

If and when I go back, my goal is to go to Mass for worship and basically close my eyes most of the time, and get out of there as quickly as I can. I would suggest that approach, strongly, before you ever get to the point of dropping out of the church, altogether.

I have tried letter writing (in the theory that a concise letter would make more of an impression than a “drive-by” question to the priest after Mass). On some matters, such as a publication of a “blasphemous picture [drawing] of Christ on the cross” I wrote the Bishop, expressing outrage over the diocese’s publication of blasphemy.

After writing more than a hundred such letters, I can tell you that I am simply exhausted. I’m actually older (of course) and I don’t like my situation, either. It’s not a good example for my family.

If we were protestants, we might come up with an explanation for all this, that the Church is going to be suppressed just before the end of time before Christ comes, and believers would have to endure the tribulation of this sort – for that’s what it seems like.

Some have taken issue with your points. Read those posts carefully. If you feel obliged to do so, take very careful notes and maybe even take your digital camera to church (without flash) and add those pictures to your record. Examine yourself, if there isn’t a plausible explanation for what you’re observing.

On the other hand, try not to judge so much. Just get-in and get-out of church real fast and turn your brain off.

I’ve been reading the Bible, from the beginning. I’m up to Psalm 118 – that’s about 470 pages in just over two months. Read slowly, take your time. See what God is saying to you in the Bible. See how seriously God takes things and stop worrying about other things that you are not directly involved in.

Ps 29 v2 “…worship the LORD in holy attire.” (RSV-CE). Remember, the original Temple worship involved the sacrifice of bulls, sheep, and goats. It probably wasn’t pretty. In Jesus’ time, he got real mad about the money changers and other stuff that corresponds to the stuff today that bothers you. As they say, whatever bothers you, submit it to the LORD.

Read Phillipians,
4:8-9 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Keep on doing what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me. Then the God of peace will be with you.

 

[chicago]

The leavened bread one is extremely serious. It is more than illicit, it in fact invalidates the sacrament entirely, making it no sacrament at all. In a Latin Catholic Mass it is improper matter for the Eucharist, and proper matter is one of the fundamental requirements for validity.

Meaning the priest totally didn’t fulfil his single most important duty, which is to provide the sacraments. Regardless of how many prayers he said or how well he said them it wasn’t a valid Eucharist he celebrated

Actually, no. The mere presence of leaven would only make the substance illicit in the Latin Church, but not invalidate the matter. After all, the Eastern Churches use leavened bread as the norm!

That said, the bread may not have been leavened, even, but just thick. Which would be totally legitimate, if perhaps in some ways undesirable (crumbs.)

I’d actually raise this issue on its own with him, and pronto.

It would be worthwhile to politely and sincerely inquire, without coming off as accusatory. Explaining that it both confused and concerned you is well within your rights. If enough people did so, perhaps he would get the hint that it is undesirable and not worth the trouble.

More generally, my advice would be to patiently tolerate what you can and try not to let it disturb you too much. There isn’t likely a lot which can be done to change matters, after all, no matter how much you try. Worship and keep your peace.

 

[Joab_Anias]

That said, the bread may not have been leavened, even, but just thick. Which would be totally legitimate, if perhaps in some ways undesirable (crumbs.)

Can it be thick and still be only wheat and water and nothing else?

How is someone to know this by looking at it when they walk into the Church and see two cardboard boxes with a note that says; if you want communion take a piece from one box and put it in the other. Maybe I over-reacted but whats a conscientious practical Catholic to do in such a case; walk out or take the chance the sacrament is going to be licit and partake in a possible defamation of it? I was shocked and dumbfounded and am still sorting this out two days later. Though to most it probably didn’t phase them but to me it feels like a violation of pastoral duty that effects me personally. Is that feeling unreasonable perhaps?

Thanks for your reply and peace.

 

[jpjd]

A couple of comments:

Most of this list falls into the category of “disappointments.” Sorry for your disappointment but:

1. Disappointment means you are allowing your personal preferences to displace the authority of the One True Church.
2. There is a focus on self-gratification.

You might want to consider whether these constitute a sin on your part.

Time is never better spent than at Mass. Why would anyone want to, and more to the point how can anyone, spend that time with their mind on anything other than the presence of the Lord and His great sacrifice.

Your mind should be in a constant state of prayer: adoration, contrition, thanksgiving, and supplication. And nothing else.

 

[jpjd]

Can it be thick and still be only wheat and water and nothing else?

How is someone to know this by looking at it when they walk into the Church and see two cardboard boxes with a note that says; if you want communion take a piece from one box and put it in the other. Maybe I over-reacted but whats a conscientious practical Catholic to do in such a case; walk out or take the chance the sacrament is going to be licit and partake in a possible defamation of it? I was shocked and dumbfounded and am still sorting this out two days later. Though to most it probably didn’t phase them but to me it feels like a violation of pastoral duty that effects me personally. Is that feeling unreasonable perhaps?

Thanks for your reply and peace.

This is often the procedure at daily Mass.

The priest consecrates just enough for those present at that morning’s Mass. The best way to make sure the right number of hosts are consecrated is to follow this procedure: As the members enter church for the Mass, they move one wafer from the supply “pile” to the paten. Then when the gifts (bread and wine) are brought up during Mass, it is the paten that is brought up, containing the wafers that the members put in – one per person.

That way, the exact number of hosts needed are consecrated, no short and no excess.

(In case you are wondering, at Sunday Mass enough Communion is consecrated to allow excess to be available for the sick for the week, and that excess is stored in the tabernacle.)

 

[THurifer2]

A couple of comments:

Most of this list falls into the category of “disappointments.” Sorry for your disappointment but:

1. Disappointment means you are allowing your personal preferences to displace the authority of the One True Church.
2. There is a focus on self-gratification.

You might want to consider whether these constitute a sin on your part.

Time is never better spent than at Mass. Why would anyone want to, and more to the point how can anyone, spend that time with their mind on anything other than the presence of the Lord and His great sacrifice.

Your mind should be in a constant state of prayer: adoration, contrition, thanksgiving, and supplication. And nothing else.

A few points

1. We should all remember the plank in our eye
   2)To the OP If Possible (may be hard) flee to orthodoxy.
2. THe Church has set up provisions to report your disappointments to the vatican if proper channels fail.

To the OP, please don’t feel bad for using the term “disappointment”. You likely walked into a church for worship because the sign on the outside of the church said it was a Catholic church. Which means they should be in union with Rome and listen to directives regarding the liturgy. If there was a such a sign on the outside of the building perhaps it may have been a little false advertisement. Kudos to you for striving to be Roman Catholic first. God Bless and if you can Flee for (little o) orthodoxy.

 

[Brendan]

Never a commemoration of the Pope
Not sure what you mean by that.

The Commemoration is the part of the Eucharistic Prayer where the priest prays for the Pope and the local Bishop

Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with N. our Pope, N. our bishop, and all the clergy.

If they are dropping that part, that is a SERIOUS abuse

 

[Brendan]

The leavened bread one is extremely serious. It is more than illicit, it in fact invalidates the sacrament entirely, making it no sacrament at all. In a Latin Catholic Mass it is improper matter for the Eucharist, and proper matter is one of the fundamental requirements for validity. .

This is not true.

The use of leaven bread is a matter of Licity, not validity. Leaven bread is still valid matter; f it wasn’t the Eastern Catholic Churches could not use it - but they do, and it becomes the Eucharist. Valid Matter is Valid Matter.

We are prohibited from using leaven bread as a matter of Liturgical Law, not of Sacramental Theology.

It is still VERY, VERY wrong to use leaven bread in a Latin Rite Liturgy, but it becomes the Eucharist.