List of abuses and disappointments after 8 months in a new diocese

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chicago said:
Well, it might be suggested that the wafer like hosts with which most of us are most familiar was at one time an innovation. Why should we accept that change over something even more traditional, then?
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I see your point. I suppose all the reports of abuse and liberties taken with the rubrics of the Mass have me a bit on edge. Also the transition from an orthodox Parish to one where there are liberties taken apparently contrary to the rubrics isn’t an easy one.

Do you think this is a step to try and reclaim the past?

I thought we were supposed to hold fast to the doctrines we had received from the Magisterium and to look back was to become as a pillar of salt like lots wife.

This is confusing and confusion isn’t supposed to be from God so why is my pastor doing things that confuse a few of the flock?

My pastor does all kinds of great teachings about the history of things but when it comes to something that departs from the norms there is never an explanation given. I find that odd. I think it would help me tremendously if there was. Such as stating that the norms and canon or rubric says such and such but I have the discretion to do it this or that way for a change if its a conscious decision. I actually saw one pastor do that once allowing a very tasteful liturgical dance for a special occasion. He came forward before Mass, explained how unusual it was and that it would take place before the official start of the Mass and thereby not be a part of the Mass.

I think these examples would give us scrupulous types a little peace and perhaps even peek interest in the goings on behind the scenes of why things are done the way they are in the Mass and perhaps get others thinking as well as following the Mass more attentively.

What value or harm may these innovations have down the road?

Will we wind up with another communion in the hand indult being considered by most as the norm just because everyone is doing it? I have to say I think if we follow what most of society is doing were in for big trouble.

Is this the pardosis of the Church? I didn’t think the Church was to be led this way.

If my consceince is honest then how can I make God conform to me whims any more than the Church to inovations because they feel better than the tradition. I am sorry but I am still not understanding taking blatant liberties agains the GIRM or Vat II when they are more than explicit and clear enough just because the majority of the people don’t know any better. Seems like a farce to me.

Peace.
 
Does anyone know if there was ever anything like the NO Mass before it was propagated after Vat II. Meaning; were there trends/innovations within the TLM leading to it or did the propagation of the NO come out first before the change to it? I am not quite old enough to remember.

Thanks in advance and peace.
 
Joab_Anias said:
I have not reacted but held these things in my heart. Where is the line between sin and expecting an orthodox NO Mass?
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That is a perceptive question. The line is, what is permitted by the Church? I realize that you are trying to find out precisely what is permitted by asking questions here.

However, please realize that many of the things you listed are just “disappointments.” A Mass is orthodox without, say, the I Confess. On your list are things that your particular priest is doing (or is not doing, as the case may be), that is permitted the Church but not preferred by you (and others here). The best example is, again, the I Confess. Again, I’m sorry for your and others’ disappointment, but if the Church allows it, then it is allowed. (i.e., reference issues discussed on other threads previous and current: EMHCs, female altar servers, priests doing Confirmations, saying Mass with no altar server present, etc.)

We would all do well to buy a book or two about the Mass, that explains what is done and why, and it’s origin. Try “The How-To Book of the Mass” by Michael Dubruiel; or “Celebrating the Mass” byAlfred McBride, O. Praem.
 
Joab_Anias said:
I know some of these may seen trivial but over an 8 month period they are just building up and I am unsure what I should do so I have come here for some advice.


  1. *]EMHC’s filling chalices.
    *]EMHC’s receiving before the priest and approaching altar before GIRM stipulates.
    *]EMHC’s offering communion to people with arms crossed.
    *]EMHC’s reposing the reserved Eucharist to the tabernacle.
    *]Liturgical dance.
    *]Glass vessels on the altar instead of precious metals.
    *]Meet and greet before every Mass.
    *]Choir ministers participating as EMHC’s/dual ministries in the same Mass.
    *]Tabernacles off to the side of the altar instead of in the prominent center of the sacristy
    *]Never the “I confess” at the penitential rite not even during Lent.
    *]Never a commemoration of the Pope
    *]No penitential service during Lent or mention of sin period.
    *]No silence after communion.
    *]Gloria often omitted.
    *]Selling art from the ambo after Mass.
    *]Having congregation children gather around altar during consecration.
    *]No mention of the presentation of the Lord, St. Joseph or St Mary on those feast days.
    *]Unattended ashes left for self imposition on Ash Wed.
    *]Leavened bread presented as licit Eucharist on Holy Thursday! :ouch:

    Peace and thanks for any advice. All is welcome.
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  1. Yes I agree and question why also. God Bless
 
Crumpy said:
I would suggest, find a parish where these sorts of things do not go on.

I stopped going to Mass about four years ago for instances of the priest in my parish (and then priests elsewhere) preaching that contradicts the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

This was and is very upsetting to me. In these forums and elsewhere I’ve been getting the one-sided advice that my decision was wrong, and basically, that I should grin and bear it.

Except for a couple more instances that I found in the local Catholic newspaper, I was just worn out and ready to head back into the confessional and join a different parish.

If and when I go back, my goal is to go to Mass for worship and basically close my eyes most of the time, and get out of there as quickly as I can. I would suggest that approach, strongly, before you ever get to the point of dropping out of the church, altogether.

I have tried letter writing (in the theory that a concise letter would make more of an impression than a “drive-by” question to the priest after Mass). On some matters, such as a publication of a “blasphemous picture [drawing] of Christ on the cross” I wrote the Bishop, expressing outrage over the diocese’s publication of blasphemy.

After writing more than a hundred such letters, I can tell you that I am simply exhausted. I’m actually older (of course) and I don’t like my situation, either. It’s not a good example for my family.

If we were protestants, we might come up with an explanation for all this, that the Church is going to be suppressed just before the end of time before Christ comes, and believers would have to endure the tribulation of this sort – for that’s what it seems like.

Some have taken issue with your points. Read those posts carefully. If you feel obliged to do so, take very careful notes and maybe even take your digital camera to church (without flash) and add those pictures to your record. Examine yourself, if there isn’t a plausible explanation for what you’re observing.

On the other hand, try not to judge so much. Just get-in and get-out of church real fast and turn your brain off.

I’ve been reading the Bible, from the beginning. I’m up to Psalm 118 – that’s about 470 pages in just over two months. Read slowly, take your time. See what God is saying to you in the Bible. See how seriously God takes things and stop worrying about other things that you are not directly involved in.

Ps 29 v2 “…worship the LORD in holy attire.” (RSV-CE). Remember, the original Temple worship involved the sacrifice of bulls, sheep, and goats. It probably wasn’t pretty. In Jesus’ time, he got real mad about the money changers and other stuff that corresponds to the stuff today that bothers you. As they say, whatever bothers you, submit it to the LORD.

Read Phillipians,
4:8-9 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Keep on doing what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me. Then the God of peace will be with you.
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Beautiful and thank you God Bless and your not the only one!
 
Joab_Anias said:
I’d like a good answer to why then innovations are being made.

Peace.
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You are asking a question for which there is no definitive response. The answers are as many and as varied as there are priests and Bishops. Suffice to say that even if we receive answers from those in authority, we will likely find ourselves still unsettled. Our Archbishop gave a thorough explanation about why we remain standing after the Agnus Dei, and all the way through until the final person receives Communion. Did that make me “feel” any better about the fact that I couldn’t kneel when I wanted to or how I was taught to do as a Catholic school girl? Absolutely not. But at this point, who is being harmed by my resistance to the Archbishop’s decrees? At this point, does it not then become a question of obedience on my part, despite my personal preferences?

I read this book amazon.com/Mass-Confusion-Catholic-Worship-Expanded/dp/1888992050/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206286841&sr=1-1 when I returned to the Church and was flooded with questions about the proper celebration of the Mass. I don’t mind telling you, I was disappointed to discover that many of my complaints were revealed as acceptable and not abusive. You might find it helpful when dealing with this confusion you feel.
 
Corki said:
I don’t think #7 is technically an abuse either as long as it is before Mass starts. It’s just tacky and annoying.

I think the reason some parishes do this is to discourage socializing during the “blessing of the peace”
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*]Having congregation children gather around altar during consecration.

My parish does this during the Life Teen mass, which is one of the reasons I refuse to attend that mass anymore. IMHO, Life Teen mass is an oxymoron.
 
Joab_Anias said:
I know some of these may seen trivial but over an 8 month period they are just building up and I am unsure what I should do so I have come here for some advice.

  1. *]EMHC’s filling chalices. Uh oh
    *]EMHC’s receiving before the priest and approaching altar before GIRM stipulates. Bad but not scream and run out of church bad, is it?
    *]EMHC’s offering communion to people with arms crossed. **Huh? Is this involuntary communion? I don’t understand. **
    *]EMHC’s reposing the reserved Eucharist to the tabernacle. **Oh dear- sadly common this one. **
    *]Liturgical dance. **Ha. That old chestnut. **
    *]Glass vessels on the altar instead of precious metals. **Ah yes. Classic combination with #5. **
    *]Meet and greet before every Mass. **What is this, can you clarify? May or may not be an abuse. **
    *]Choir ministers participating as EMHC’s/dual ministries in the same Mass. **Bad practice- but survivable, I think. **
    *]Tabernacles off to the side of the altar instead of in the prominent center of the sacristy **That’s really just a dream for orthodox catholics in many places. The practice is allowed. **
    *]Never the “I confess” at the penitential rite not even during Lent. **Never required. **
    *]Never a commemoration of the Pope. **Sad that. **
    *]No penitential service during Lent or mention of sin period. No mention of sin? Do they say the creed
    *]No silence after communion. Not required, and some would say not a good idea…
    *]Gloria often omitted. **Lent? Yes. Outside Lent? On weekdays? Yes. On Sundays? UH OH. **
    *]Selling art from the ambo after Mass. Oh dear, oh dear. That’s bad.
    *]Having congregation children gather around altar during consecration. Abuse. Not allowed
    *]No mention of the presentation of the Lord, St. Joseph or St Mary on those feast days. Hmmmm. Tricky. Poor play, but could be just error. Not necessarily abuse.
    *]Unattended ashes left for self imposition on Ash Wed. Abuse.
    *]Leavened bread presented as licit Eucharist on Holy Thursday! :ouch:Uh oh
    **Go to the diocese about #19, 18, 16,15, 5 & 6. Please. Those are seriously bad. Good luck. **

    Peace and thanks for any advice. All is welcome.
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Heard back from Fr. again in e-mail and refered him to this thread. He doesn’t have time to meet with me but was able to recommend me to another priest and three other parishes where he thinks I may be more comfortable. No specific answers to any of my concerns but that doesn’t suprise me really. I am not concerned about comfort but obedience to the Church no matter where I am.

Peace.
 
Jimsdun said:
*]Having congregation children gather around altar during consecration.

My parish does this during the Life Teen mass, which is one of the reasons I refuse to attend that mass anymore. IMHO, Life Teen mass is an oxymoron.
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Rome forbad the practice and sent a communication to the LifeTeen organizers. This is what was said about that practice:
The teens will no longer surround the altar during the Eucharistic prayer; they will cease saying, “The Mass never ends, it must be lived”, at the end of Mass; the rock-party atmosphere before Mass will be toned down to “make sure there is a period of silence to begin the liturgical celebration”; and they will “make sure the music does not in any way detract from the action at the altar, ambo or chair”.
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The information appeared in the 2004 online edition of Adoremus.

Now, to the OP: I read through four pages of your thread. Some of your issues were legitimate concerns that your pastor should have reviewed. Although he did include the commemoration of the Holy Father in the Memorial of the Eucharistic Prayer, he still needs to address the matter of the EMHC’s. Furthermore, I interpreted his remarks to you as rather flippant. Sending you to talk to another priest and/or inviting you to go to another parish are simply a cop-out on the pastor’s part. As a Catholic, you do have the right to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated according to what the Church prescribes. That right belongs to everyone and no one, be he priest or bishop, has the authority to deny it.
 
Ilroy said:
What needs done first is to schedule an appt. with the pastor of the parish and bring the ones that are actual abuses.
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Actually, I did something like that and another parishoner did also. I was told that if I didn;t like it, I was free to go somewhere else and no one was forcing me to attend Church there. The other parishoner told me that he was told the same thing and in addition he said that he was a member of the litugical group and people told him that there was no sense in his complaining because things were going to be be the way they were being done and if he didn;t like it then he could find himself another Church. .
 
Joab_Anias said:
Heard back from Fr. again in e-mail and refered him to this thread. He doesn’t have time to meet with me but was able to recommend me to another priest and three other parishes where he thinks I may be more comfortable. No specific answers to any of my concerns but that doesn’t suprise me really. I am not concerned about comfort but obedience to the Church no matter where I am.

Peace.
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Any of them the Grotto?
 
Joab Anias, I sympathize with your plight, and I have a book suggestion that might help you understand why people are making these innovations. It is called “The Spirit of the Liturgy” by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. We know who Cardinal Ratizinger is today, and I assure you that he also sympathizes with your plight. Let us pray for our Holy Father as he works to straighten out the liturgical mess that exists in so many places. If I were you, in the mean time, I would change parishes. You deserve peace of mind at Mass.
 
LRThunder said:
Some of these might not be abuses per se.

#9, I don’t know how that would be an abuse. The tabernacle at my parish is in the sanctuary, off to the side.

#10, The Confeitor (sp?) which begins with “I confess,” is just one option of the Pentitential Rite, so not using it isn’t an abuse.

#14, In Advent and Lent, the Gloria is not sung, and obviously also not at daily Mass. The Gloria is supposed to be sung during the other seasons (Ordinary Time, Christmas, Easter)

These are the ones that I don’t think are abuses, the rest you mentioned definitely appear to be abuses, though.
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Neither is #5 if done outside a mass setting.
 
THurifer2 said:
Yes new Ulm but liturgical dance feminizes the already femnized Mass…and many men (like me) nearly vomit when it occurs in our presence.
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Men aren’t the only ones who cringe at “liturgical dance”. I cringe at the very mention of the word. All of us should, too. It is most disturbing that a practice forbidden by Rome still manages to pop up like a bad penny just because some creative genius takes it upon himself (or, herself, as happened with the Salesian Sisters) to do something to “spice up the Mass.”
 
Kevirish01 said:
“Peace and thanks for any advice. All is welcome.”

Yes, I would contact Catholics United for the Faith and see if you can find a loyal, orthodox parish in your neck-of-the-woods. If you aren’t aware of this great apostolate they are totally loyal to the Pope and the Magisterium and have chapters throughout the country (even Milaukee - sp?). Their number is toll-free. Just leave a message with all of your contact info (ph. # - email) and they will get back to you. 👍

Ph: 1-800-MY-FAITH Web: cuf.org/Home.asp

Peace to you – I will pray for this cross you are bearing with our Lord in this diocese. :o

Kev
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Thanks for this link, Kev! I’ve spent the past 4 years in my new town trying to find a Mass that’s not fraught with abuses and “local practices”. Even our Cathedral had some major issues a couple years ago but they seem to have changed since then for the better. But I am tired of switching parishes every other year because a priest comes in that introduces some very weird and upsetting things. We have on parish where the priest treats the homily like a CCD class, asking people questions and prompting everyone to call out answers. He’s also fond of getting everyone to laugh heartily. I don’t mind some homily humor but to make it a Jay Leno type of monologue is just wrong. Another parish uses all glass vessels for the Eucharist and has the EMHC’s all dressed in white robes and proceed to the altar with the priest at the beginning of Mass like cardinals do with the pope. They then sit on either side of the altar during Mass. Yet another parish doesn’t even have kneelers and everyone just sits for the Eucharistic prayers. It’s a nice church building, just no kneelers. Very sad.

Thanks again for the link. I intend to use visit the site immediately.

trob
 
Well, its been a couple of weeks since I addressed these concerns with my pastor and the best I heard back from him was that I might perhaps be more comfortable at another Parish and he suggested a few.

Any suggestions on what the next step should be would be greatly appreciated.

I’'ve isolated the most blatant abuses as per the GIRM and Canons and omitted the sentimental concerns and some other innovations and forwarded the following to the local Vicariate and the Arch Diocese also without response.

I addressed for explaination in the most charitable and humble way possible the following with the pastor of the parish I have been attending within this vicariate since relocating here 8 months ago:

Selling art from the ambo after Mass.

Having congregation children gather around the altar during consecration.

Unattended ashes left for self imposition on Ash Wed.

Home-made bread presented as matter for the Eucharist in cardboard boxes on Holy Thursday.

EMHC’s filling chalices even when several decons present in the sancutary, receiving before the priest, approaching altar before the GIRM stipulates, offering communion to people with arms crossed, and reposing the reserved Eucharist to the tabernacle.

and there were a few other dissapointments but I was offered no explainations and told by the pastor if these practices made me uncomfortable that I should seek another parish.

Any advice about how long I should wait for a response and if none is recieved what else can be done besides throwing in the towel and finding a Pastor that finds it uncharitable to deviate from the norms of the Church?

Peace.
 
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