List of common fallacies of Atheists

[yankee_doodle]

I was reading this list that atheists should avoid (my comments appear in the italicized text under each point):

Pitfalls for Atheists to Avoid

1. Assume that because you compare theism to believing in pink unicorns or fairy tales that you have made a good argument.

Any comparison to something far fetched fits quite well as an argument by analogy.

1. Become hostile and use degrading vulgarities while maintaining that Christianity is an immoral religion.

this one is inappropriate

1. When you are having trouble answering an argument posed by a Christian theist, simply say, “well even if this were true, it doesn’t prove the existence of the ‘Christian’ God.”

It’s not having trouble, it’s when asked to prove a negative (like was some sort of intelligent design behind the creation of the universe, or might some sort of being(s) who is beyond our cognition exist) we respond by noting the obvious fact that even if these things were true it indeed would not prove the existence of the christian god.

1. Assume that simply because you explain a phenomena from a naturalistic perspective that it constitutes an argument which must be true.

this one requires examples

1. When arguing against the Christian God, simply say that you only believe in “one less god” than most people, as if that does not require you to defend an atheistic understanding of cosmology, anthropology, ethics, philosophy of history, philosophy of politics, philosophy of science, and epistemology.

this is an unintelligible statement

1. Make metaphysical statements that suggest that metaphysics are a useless waste of time.

metaphysics are generally theoretical (for instance Aquinas’ causation argument)

1. Argue that we should only believe things proven by empirical evidence without proving it with empirical evidence.

um, huh?

1. Use logic like it is a universal, transcendent, unchanging reality when atheistic naturalism cannot account for universal, transcendent, unchanging realities.

*can you show how atheists preach some sort of unchanging reality (beyond perhaps the physical laws of the universe)? Isn’t it Christians who do this? *

1. Argue that there is no evidence to believe in the existence of God because all the evidence that is produced fails to pass the standards of evidence which have been constructed from the belief that God does not exist.

*it is true that there is no real evidence for the existence of a god. This makes it readily apparent that this isn’t a list of any scholarly merit. This is simply an ad hom attack on atheists (and it itself shows an inability to counter our arguments, because rather than deal with these arguments on the merits, this seeks to discredit them by falsely depicting them as logical fallacies). *

1. Argue that human beings are robots, puppets, and machines programmed by natural selection in a closed system of cause and effect, and then argue for free thought and moral agency.

who argues such a thing? The irony is it’s in fact the bible which does exactly what you’re describing here.

1. Place your ultimate trust in human reason while believing that man’s mind evolved from lower animals such as monkeys and will continue to evolve until we become the monkeys from which the minds of the future will have evolved.

*again, opinion … nothing here that merits serious consideration. *

As an aside I just want to say relying on the logic from this web site (if you want to call it logic) will not do theists any favors. It’s intellectually ridiculous; and sounds like it was written by a child or teenager (or at least someone who is not well educated). Basically what they’re trying to do is take some fairly good arguments against theism; and discredit them (an anticipatory ad hom attack). Probably more to program theists to ignore these arguments (by trying to discredit them) rather than dissuade atheists from using them (since we know most of these are good arguments; and we aren’t going to be manipulated by this sort of idiocy). Of course it could have been some drunk kid or yahoo somewhere who drummed up this web site … who the heck knows.

The silly stuff religion has inspired throughout the ages never ceases to amaze me

 

[Sonic]

The silly stuff religion has inspired throughout the ages never ceases to amaze me

No… actually it came from a Podcast linked on the web page linked above…

apologetics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=326:10-arguments-thoughtful-atheists-wont-use&catid=43:kkla-995-fm-los-angeles&Itemid=74

The reason for this list comes from actual arguments being made in an illogical way by… most likely teenagers on Yahoo… who are Atheists.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinions. Just please try to do more research before commenting.

 

[tonyrey]

Good, so now we are not talking about “chance”, but probabilities. Ok so we are on the same wave length, can you explain to me what a random mutation is. Thanks.

A random mutation is one which is indeterminate and has no particular cause or purpose, i.e. it is an irrational event which occurs by chance and is inexplicable. …

 

[Charles_Darwin]

A random mutation is one which is indeterminate and has no particular cause or purpose, i.e. it is an irrational event which occurs by chance and is inexplicable. …

NO, i mean can you explain the processes that cause random mutations please. I need to see you understand what is actually going on. For if you don’t, it is just another ignorant claim. Also how on earth is it “irrational”??? . When you flip a coin is it “irrational” if it lands on heads?

Oh and do you agree when we are talking “chance” what you really mean is probability. I.E. when you roll a dice what is the “chance” you are going to get a six.

 

[liquidpele]

No… actually it came from a Podcast linked on the web page linked above…

apologetics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=326:10-arguments-thoughtful-atheists-wont-use&catid=43:kkla-995-fm-los-angeles&Itemid=74

The reason for this list comes from actual arguments being made in an illogical way by… most likely teenagers on Yahoo… who are Atheists.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinions. Just please try to do more research before commenting.

To be fair, the people responding on Yahoo in general are usually… well, worthless. That place makes my head hurt. Same with youtube comments.

 

[wanstronian]

Yes there is evidence to suggest otherwise. The Universe began to exist. Thats Just one.

The fact that you consider this evidence speaks volumes. It has become clear that, to the theist, evidence can be taken to mean, “whatever hypothesis supports my belief system, regardless of its provenance.” This is why you cannot be taken seriously.

Also There is the proofs of Aquinas.

Again, more misnomenclature. If there were any proof for the existence of God, the vast majority of people in the world would believe in him. They don’t because there is no proof.

Also physical reality in principle cannot explain all the qualities that occur in respect of physical processes. Things like freewill and mind.

And yet again, more guesswork presented as evidence. When will you learn?

Why not intentional design?

Because there is no evidence of it. Weren’t you listening?

Once again what about rationality, consciousness, free will, purpose, truth, etc?

Like MoM, you are confusing conjecture that supports your belief, with evidence.

How do you determine the limits of physicality?

I’m not sure you can. What does this prove, either way? It’s a pointless question - it can’t be answered, so the person being asked is made to appear stupid. It’s a common debating mechanism used by people who have a point to prove but are incapable of doing so. It’s the archetypical Straw Man fallacy, and you use it an awful lot, Tony!(Straw Man count: 1)

Logical positivism was abandoned a long time ago…

Another straw man. (Straw Man count: 2)

It is a weakness of science if science is regarded as a potential explanation of everything and it is intellectually dishonest to seize upon science as some sort of vote in favour of the non-existence of God.

Here you go again, hijacking my sentence structure in an attempt to show that your point is equally valid. It’s not, of course, because you avoid the original issue and set up another straw man to attack. Why are you so dishonest? (Straw Man count: 3)

What precisely is this adequate explanation? It is not sufficient to say “evolution” or “natural selection”.

I posted a link a few posts back. Just because it doesn’t support your belief, that doesn’t make it wrong.

Only a couple! We’re back to science of the gaps…

Yet another straw man! *(Straw Man count: 4)*Yet again we see your predilection towards any old answer being better than admitting you don’t know. I’d hate to bump into you away from your home area and ask for directions.

How is saying “A person did it” a scientific description of anything?

It’s not. Do you have a point, or are you just straw-manning again? (Straw Man count: 5)

It would be very odd if Jesus reappeared for every generation, especially when He was rejected by many people when He was on earth.

I never said he should appear like clockwork every 30 years. (Straw Man count: 6) I pointed out that 2,000 years is a long time to be busy elsewhere. Why doesn’t he just come back and remove all doubt?

Elementary knowledge of the Gospels is sufficient to make one realise that His mission and message were not just for His own generation but for all mankind until the end of time. The truth shines by its own light…

Knowledge of the gospels is not the same as veracity of the gospels. There is no evidence that the message is God’s message rather than just the message being propagated by the scribes of the time.

It has been independently verified in the lives of millions of people - unlike the results of atheism… How so easily dismissed?

And there we have it - the personal opinion of a subset of people should be taken as verification. What of the millions of people who have different religious beliefs? What of the millions of people who have no religious belief? What of scientific method? Why should all of these kowtow to Christianity? By what rational justification?

Please explain yourself more clearly.

I think you know what I mean, but just so I can’t be accused of avoiding the question: The bible has many tales of God-sanctioned behaviour that today we would consider immoral. I’d prefer not to cite examples because they are well-known and acknowledged, but I can if you really want me to.

It is not a question of morality but historical insight.

Now it’s your turn to explain yourself more clearly. How has historical insight allowed us to discern which parts of the bible are literal and which parts are allegorical?

Do you really believe that? Then what are the precise mechanisms by which:

1. purposeless → purposeful?
2. irrational → rational?
3. impersonal → personal?
4. determined → self-determined?
5. non-conscious → conscious ?

You really don’t get it, do you? What is it that is stopping you from understanding the basic tenet of burden of proof? I am quite correctly pointing out that no evidence exists to support the existence of God with respect to the purposeful, rational etc. nature of the human individual. You, with what can only be described as a considerable amount of intellectual paucity, are interpreting me as having said that I can prove the opposite. Please have the honesty to not misrepresent my statements - Maybe you’re playing to the crowd, but they will see through your bluster - you’re just making yourself look incompetent. (Straw Man count: 7)

I can assert with more justification that just because you do not understand something it is blind prejudice to attribute its ultimate source to fortuitous combinations of molecules and random genetic mutations.

I’d like to see that justification, as it would entail empirical, independent proof of non-physical and non-physically-caused entities. No such proof exists, therefore you are talking nonsense. Again.

 

[wanstronian]

A false deduction. NeoDarwinism is false because it asserts that the fundamental causes of the origin of life and the process of evolution are fortuitous combinations of molecules and random genetic mutations respectively.

And unless you have evidence - REAL evidence - that it started in another way, then this is the most valid explanation, because it deals with things that we know to exist. Your answer relies on hypothetical fluff which cannot be measured, observed or documented with complete objectivity.

You clearly believe in “purposeless design” which is a distortion of the original meaning of the term (similar to Monod’s use of the term “teleonomic” to evade “teleological”) because purpose entails directiveness and a reference to the future whereas physical activity is restricted to the present. The title of Monod’s book “Chance and Necessity” reveals which, in his atheistic view, has precedence.

I believe in natural selection, which is the means by which random mutations in some individuals within a species make it more likely to survive to pass on that genetic mutation. It’s simple, effective, and has an overwhelming amount of independent evidence to support it. That’s why it must be considered ‘true’ by any rational person.

The fact remains that you believe the source of the material for selection is random and therefore evolution has no rational basis or purpose…

Interesting - I think it’s true to say that ‘evolution’ as a process has no rationality or purpose. The context and tone of your comment implies that you think this diminishes its validity?

 

[Oreoracle]

LOL. It reminds me of the Count on Sesame Street:

“That’s 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. 7 straw men!”

 

[yankee_doodle]

No… actually it came from a Podcast linked on the web page linked above…

apologetics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=326:10-arguments-thoughtful-atheists-wont-use&catid=43:kkla-995-fm-los-angeles&Itemid=74

The reason for this list comes from actual arguments being made in an illogical way by… most likely teenagers on Yahoo… who are Atheists.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinions. Just please try to do more research before commenting.

I followed the link, skimmed it (and verified it contained the same information as the poster here provided) so that seemed satisfactory to me. I believe it was a Catholic poster who used this logic, and presented this web site as a credible source of information (not me, I was merely rebutting its logic).

So while I agree research is always important when discussing important topics (particularly topics as sensitive as religion); I think in this case it was the poster who first used this site (and relied on it to form an argument or to aid his argument) who should have done more research?

 

[yankee_doodle]

The fact remains that you believe the source of the material for selection is random and therefore evolution has no rational basis or purpose…

as far as we can observe evolution has no purpose. Natural selection appears to operate under certain biological laws; but that doesn’t imply a purpose.

The concept of intelligent design is conjecture, because we don’t know what the driving forces behind the origins of the universe might have been. It may have been a random accident that put just the right elements together, at the right density, right temperature, at just the right time … we don’t know “yet”?

However, even if we one day find good reason to believe intelligent design were true, we still couldn’t say Christianity is anymore credible than an obscure theistic concept like deism. Therefore, these issues (intelligent design / the veracity of any particular faith system) must be examined separately (logically speaking anyway).

When I look at “religion” I think it’s valid to look at its historical pattern over time (indeed it’s one of the few ways to objectively examine this topic, which would otherwise demand we try and prove a negative). IMO a critical examination of religion debunks it.

 

[tonyrey]

NO, i mean can you explain the processes that cause random mutations please. I need to see you understand what is actually going on. For if you don’t, it is just another ignorant claim. Also how on earth is it “irrational”??? . When you flip a coin is it “irrational” if it lands on heads?

There is a vast difference between coin flips and random mutations. If we had enough information we could predict how the coin will land.

Oh and do you agree when we are talking “chance” what you really mean is probability. I.E. when you roll a dice what is the “chance” you are going to get a six.

“chance” has several meanings. “probability” is one of them.“indeterminate” is another and “fortuitous” is another. This is where “irrational” comes in…

 

[josie_L]

LOL. It reminds me of the Count on Sesame Street:

“That’s 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. 7 straw men!”

More like “That’s 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-Tweeeeeeelve common fallacies of Atheists”.

 

[liquidpele]

More like “That’s 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-Tweeeeeeelve common fallacies of Atheists”.

Ah! Ah! Ah!

This post is brought to you by the letter Q.

 

[josie_L]

ask and yea shall receive:

Catholic Priest Guilty In Rwanda Genocide

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/13/AR2006121301948.html

A major investigation into allegations of child abuse in Irish state-run institutions is set to implicate ‘hundreds’ of Catholic priests today.

article.wn.com/view/2009/05/20/Hundreds_of_Catholic_priests_to_be_implicated_in_child_abuse/

Some priests assisted passively by refusing to help Tutsi parishioners or clergy. Some openly encouraged the killers. Others promised parishioners safe havens at churches, which were then attacked in some of the genocide’s most notorious massacres, the chapels littered with mutilated corpses and spilled blood in what African Rights called a ``dreadful parody" of the communion ritual.

A few priests manned roadblocks where Tutsis were arrested. Some took up weapons against Tutsis. One former military chaplain who helped train militiamen wore a gun and a crucifix when he greeted Pope John Paul II’s representative during the genocide. Two other priests were sentenced to death in Rwanda this year for paying workers to bulldoze their church in Nyange, killing 2,000 Tutsis locked inside.

maykuth.com/Projects/rwan3.htm

RWANDAN PRIESTS

The following extendible list gives the distribution of slaughtered priests by Diocese:

Diocese of Butare

1. Father Filmin Butera, Head of the parish of Higiro, killed in Butare on May 31, 1994.
2. Father Justine Furaha, Head of the Parish of Save, killed in Butare on May 31, 1994.
3. Father Alex Kayumba, Parish of Cyahinda, killed in the Parish of Kiruhura in July 1994.
4. Father Charles Nshogoza, Head of the Parish of Cyahinda, killed in Cyahinda.
5. Father Mathieu Ngirumpatse, Parish of Nyanza, killed in Nyanza in April 1994.
6. Father Francis Ngomirakiza, Head of the Parish of Karama, Killed in Ndago, on July 5, 1994.
7. Father Callixte Nkeshumpatse, Parish of Gakoma, killed in Bugesera.
8. Father Second Ntibaziga, Director of the Nursing School of Gakoma, killed in Gakoma on May 7, 1994.
9. Father Innocent Nyangezi, Parish of Nyanza, killed in Nyanza in April 1994.
10. Father Tharcisse Rubingiza, Professor of Theology at the School of Theology of Nyakibanda, killed in the Parish of Gisagara on April 26, 1994.
11. Father Jean Bosco Yirirwahandi, Head of the Parish of Nyanza, killed in Nyanza, in April 1994.

These were killed in hospitals during April 7, 1994-December 1994:

1. Father Bonifasi Musoni,
2. Father John Ntiyamira,
3. Father Vitari Rutayisire,
4. Father Narcisse Semuriro.
   This one has disappeared, probably killed in April-May 1994.
5. Father Felicien Muvara of Butare.

Diocese of Byumba

1. Father Alex Havugimana, killed in Byumba in April 1994.
2. Father Joseph Hitimana, killed in Byumba April 1994.
3. Father Augustin Mashyenderi killed in the Parish of Nyinawimana in April 1994.
4. Father Gaspard Mudashimwa, Professor at the Rwesero Seminary, killed in Rwesero on May 21, 1994.
5. Father Ladislas Muhayemungu, killed in April 1994.
6. Father Celestin Muhayimana, killed in Nyinawimana in April 1994.
7. Father Fidel Mulinda killed in April 1994.
8. Father Faustine Murindwa killed in April 1994.
9. Father Christian Nkiliyehe killed in April 1994.
10. Father Athanase Nkundabanyanga, Bursar of the Diocese of Byumba, killed in Byumba in April 1994.
11. Father Thaddee Ciza, a Burundese refugee, d1sappeared in April 1994.

Diocese of Cyangugu

1. Father Joseph Boneza, Head of the Parish of Mibirizi, killed in Cyangugu on May 19, 1994.
2. Father Innocent Gashugi, killed in the hospital on May 17, 1994.

Diocese of Gikongoro

1. Father Stratton Gakwaya, Bursar of the Diocese of Gikongoro, killed in Kigali on April 7, 1994.
2. Father Boniface Kanyoni, Parish of Kibeho, killed in Kigali on April 7, 1994.
3. Father Canisius Murinzi, Parish of Mbuga, killed in Gikongoro on May 13, 1994.
4. Father Aloys Musoni, Parish of Cyanika, killed in Gikongoro on May 13, 1994.
5. Father Pierre Ngoga, Head of the Parish of Kibeho, killed in Butare on May 31, 1994.
6. Father Jean Marie Vianney Niyirema, Head of the Parish of Kaduha, killed in Kigali on April 7, 1994.
7. Father Joseph Niyomugabo, Head of the Parish of Cyanika, killed in Cyanika on April 24, 1994.
8. Father Irenee Nyamwasa, Head of the Parish of Mbuga, killed in Gikongoro on May 13, 1994.
9. Father Alfred Nzabakurana, School Super Intendant of Gikongoro, killed in Kigali on May 7, 1994.
10. Father Jean Marie Rwanyabuto, Head of the Parish of Muganza, killed in Gisagara on May 26, 1994.
11. Father Jean Marie Sebera, Head of the Parish of Simbi, killed in Ndago on July 5, 1994.
12. Father Callixte Uwitonze, Parish of Gikongoro, killed in Nyanza in April 1994.

to be continued . . .

 

[josie_L]

Diocese of Kabgayi

1. Father Tharcisse Gakuba, Parish of Muyunzwe, killed in Bukomero, on May 24, 1994.
2. Father Alfred Kayibanda, Parish of Kabgayi, killed in Gakurazo on June 5, 1994.
3. Father Alphonse Mbuguje, killed in Gakurazo on June 5, 1994.
4. Father Callixte Musonera, Head of the Parish of Kayenzi, killed in Bukomero on May 24, 1994.
5. Father Sylvester Ndabaretse (a Burundese refugee), Bursar of the Diocese, killed in Gakurazo on June 5, 1994.
6. Father Celestin Niwenshuti, Parish of Byimana, killed in i Bukomero on May 24, 1994.
7. Father Bernard Ntamugabumwe, School Super intendant of Gitarama, killed in Gakurazo on June 5, 1994.
8. Father Emmanuel, Parish of Gitarama, killed i Nyakabanda on July 7, 1994.
9. Father Francois Twagirmana, Parish of Kinazi, killed in Masango in July 1994 Nyakanga.
10. Father Michel Gigi, Head of the Parish of Cyeza, killed in the the hospital on July 7, 1994.
11. Father Vianney Rusingizandekwe has disappeared.

Diocese of Kibungo

1. Father Joseph Gatare, Director of the College of Mukarange, killed in Mukarange on April 12, 1994.
2. Father Elisee Mpongano, Head of the Parish of Bare, killed in Kibungo on April 15, 1994
3. Father Jean Bosco Munyawera, Head of the Parish of Mukarane killed in Mukarange on April 12, 1994.
4. Father Evode Mwanangu, Parish of Rukoma, killed in Rukoma on April 8, 1994.
5. Father Michel Nsengiyumva, Head of the Parish of Rukoma, killed in Kibungo on April 18, 1994.
6. Father Justin Ruterandongozi, Parish of Rukoma, killed in Rukoma on April 7, 1994.

Archdiocese of Kigali

1. Father Ananie Rugasira, Bursar of Ndera killed in Ndera On April 9, 1994.
2. Father Alexandre Ngeze killed in the Hospital of Rilima.

The following priests have disappeared:

1. Father Joseph Harelimana,
2. Father Felix Kabayiza,
3. Father Canisius Ndekezi.

Diocese of Nyundo

1. Father Mathias Gahinda, Head of the Parish of Mubuga, killed in Kibuye in April 1994.
2. Father Edouard Gakwandi, Parish of Nyundo, killed in Nyundo on April 9, 1994.
3. Father Silas Gasake, Head of the Parish of Kibingo, killed in Nyundo on April 9, 1994.
4. Father Albert Gashema, Parish of Mubuga, killed in April 1994.
5. Father Louis Gasore, Head of the Parish of Muhororo, killed in Muhororo in April 1994.
6. Father Thaddee Gatore, Head of the Parish of Kivumu, killed in Kivumu on April 13, 1994
7. Father Antoine Habiyambere, Parish of Rambura, killed in Rambura on April 7, 1994.
8. Father Sipiridio Kageyo, Head of the Parish of Rambura, killed in rambura on April 7, 1994.
9. Father Callixte Kalisa, School Super Intendant of Gisenyi, Killed in Nyundo on April 9, 1994.
10. Father Clement Kanyabusozo, Head of the Parish of Mushubati, Killed in Nyundo on April 9, 1994.
11. Father Fedinand Karekezi, Parish of Mushubati, killed in Nyundo on April 9, 1994.
12. Father Robert Matajyabo, Parish of Mushubati, killed in Nyundo on April 9, 1994.
13. Father Denis Mutabazi, Parish of Kibingo, killed in Gakurazo on June 5, 1994.
14. Father Silver Mutiganda, Parish of Murunda, killed in Murunda on April 8, 1994.
15. Father Herman Mwambali, Retired living in Nyundo, killed in Nyundo on April 9, 1994.
16. Father Antoine Niyitegeka, Parish of Rambura, killed in Rambura on April 7, 1994.
17. Father Augustin Nkezabera, Head of the Parish of Muramba, killed in Muramba on April 7,1994.
18. Father Venuste Nsengiyumva, Parish of Kivumu, killed in in Kivumu on April 7, 1994.
19. Father Augustin Ntagara, Head of the Parish of Gisenyi, killed in Gisenyi on April 7, 1994.
20. Father Vedaste Nyiribakwe, Professor at the School of Theology of Kabgayi, killed in Kabgayi on April 24, 1994.
21. Father Adrien Nzanana, Head of the Parish of Kibingo, killed in Nyundo on April 7, 1994.
22. Father Aloys Nzaramba, Chancellor of Nyundo, killed in Nyundo on April 9, 1994.
23. Father Innocent Ruberizesa, Head of the Parish of Birambo, killed in Birambo in April 1994.
24. Father Theophile Rutagengwa, Parish of Muramba, killed in Kibuye in April 1994.
25. Father Francois Rwigenza, Parish of Muhororo, killed in Muhororo in April 1994.
26. Father Deogratias Rwivanga, Parish of Kibuye, killed in April 1994.
27. Father Narcisse Sebasare, Parish of Birambo, killed in Birambo in April 1994.
28. Father Joseph Sekabaraga, Head of the Parish of Biruyi, killed in Biruyi on April 13,1994.
29. Father Boniface Senyenzi, Parish of Kibuye, killed in Kibuye in April 1994.
30. Father Deogratias Twagirayezu, Teacher at the Seminary of Nyundo, killed in Nyundo on April 7, 1994
31. Father Alfred Niyitegeka disappeared in April 1994.

Diocese of Ruhengeri

1. Father Geronimo Sembagare, Director of the College of Janja, killed in Goma on July 16, 1994.

inshuti.org/church.htm

 

[tonyrey]

as far as we can observe evolution has no purpose.

Do you base all your conclusions on observation pf physical events?

Natural selection appears to operate under certain biological laws; but that doesn’t imply a purpose.

The existence of an orderly system requires explanation when there could conceivably have been chaos…

The concept of intelligent design is conjecture, because we don’t know what the driving forces behind the origins of the universe might have been. It may have been a random accident that put just the right elements together, at the right density, right temperature, at just the right time … we don’t know “yet”?

Which is more effective: random accidents or intelligence?

When I look at “religion” I think it’s valid to look at its historical pattern over time (indeed it’s one of the few ways to objectively examine this topic, which would otherwise demand we try and prove a negative). IMO a critical examination of religion debunks it.

I disagree but it’s not the topic anyway.

 

[josie_L]

Ah! Ah! Ah!

This post is brought to you by the letter Q.

I’m glad you have a sense of humour.

 

[CGDouglas]

1. Stephen Hawking (or another famous intellectual) says that God does not exist, therefore God must not exist. (Stephen Hawking is a theoretical physics, not a philosopher. His opinion on whether God exists does not to carry very much weight because he is not an expert in that particular field of study.)

Not sure if this has been mentioned, Stephen Hawkings is either agnostic or Deist according to reuters.

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[josie_L]

**Forgot to add this to the above list, my bad. **

BISHOP AND FOREIGNERS:

His Eminence Vincent Nsengiyumva, Archbishop of Kigali, killed by the Rwandan Patriotic Army (RPA) , in Gakurazo on June 5, 1994.

His Eminence Joseph Ruzindana, Bishop of Byumba, killed by the Rwandan Patriotic Army (RPA), in Gakurazo on June 5, 1994.

His Eminence Innocent Gasabwoya, Vicar-General of Kabgayi, killed by the Rwandan Patriotic Army (RPA), in Gakurazo on June 5, 1994.

His Eminence Thaddee Nsengiyumva, Bishop of Kabgayi, killed by the Rwandan Patriotic Army (RPA) on June 5, 1994.

His Eminence Phocas Nikwigize, Bishop of Ruhengeri, killed by the Rwandan Patriotic Army (RPA) on November 30, 1996 in Goma, the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

His Eminence Jean Marie Rwabirinda, Vicar-General of Kabgayi, killed by the Rwandan Patriotic Army (RPA) , in Gakurazo on June 5, 1994.

His Eminence Andre Sibomana, Acting Bishop of Kabgayi, mysteriously killed (apparently by the RPA secret services) in Kabgayi on March 9, 1998.

Chaplain Antoine Hategekimana, killed in Bukavu in November 1996, by the Rwandan Patriotic Army, along with His Eminence Christopher Munzihirwa-Mwene-Ngabo, Archbishop of Bukavu, the Democratic Republic of the Congo…

Chaplain Fidel Gahonzire, Chaplain of the Kabgayi Hospital, Killed by the Rwandan Patriotic Army in Gakurazo on June 5, 1994.

Father Guy Pinard, a Canadian, killed by the Rwandan Patriotic Army in February 1997, while conducting a Mass.

His Eminence Boniface Kagabo, acting bishop of Ruhengeri, killed by the Rwandan Patriotic Army on May 26, 1998.

Father Vjeco Curic, a Friar priest from Croatia, mysteriously killed by his passenger (apparently from the RPA secret services) in front of the Holy Family Church of Kigali on January 31, 1998.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Notwithstanding the long list of priests who were killed in Rwanda; it doesn’t change the fact that they were involved with the genocide of the minority Tutsi (when I say “they” I mean the clergy and local church generally speaking & don’t opine on the particulars concerning individual cases).