List of similarity in doctrine with catholics and mormons

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Thanks for your clear response Catholic Guy,

So we are talking about
3 persons in one Nature vs 3 persons in one Purpose

I don’t see any practical difference between the two when you consider the margin for error (we are both describing somnething we’ve never seen and is beyond our ability to comprehend)
 
Thanks for your clear response Catholic Guy,

So we are talking about
3 persons in one being vs 3 persons in one purpose

I don’t see any practical difference between the two when you consider the margin for error (we are both describing somnething we’ve never seen and is beyond our ability to comprehend)
You keep ignoring the difference in our understanding of the nature of God. Why is that? No Catholic believes that God the Father started out as an “eternal intelligence” exactly the same as any human being on earth, past present or future. In the LDS understanding we all (God and every scmoo on earth) started out as some sort of “intelligence” floating around in … time…space…? This is a huge difference that must be settled before we can even get into a conversation about the Trinity.
 
So Zaff,
What is the essence of a soul?
Does it exist before birth?
What is your official Catholic source for the dogma (link pls so i can read)?
 
So Zaff,
What is the essence of a soul?
Does it exist before birth?
What is your official Catholic source for the dogma (link pls so i can read)?
Catholicism does not teach that the soul pre-exists the body. Instead, we believe that the soul is created by God immediately at conception. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

382 “Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity” (GS 14 § 1). The doctrine of the faith affirms that the spiritual and immortal soul is created immediately by God.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p6.htm

Also, the question that we are addressing isn’t “what is the essence of the soul”, but what is the nature of man in relation to the nature of God. Catholics affirm that the nature of man is different in species from the nature of God. Mormons affirm that the nature of man is of the same species as God, just different in progress/rank.
 
CatholicGuy, thanks for the clear replsone, once again.
I believe the Catachism is considered a provisional guide to church doctorine and was first published in 1992.(wish it had been around when I was growing up Catholic)
Catholicism does not teach that the soul pre-exists the body. Instead, we believe that the soul is created by God immediately at conception. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235
Footnote indicate the source is Humani Generis (1950); Lateran Council V (1513)
382 “Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity” (GS 14 § 1). The doctrine of the faith affirms that the spiritual and immortal soul is created immediately by God.
Also, the question that we are addressing isn’t “what is the essence of the soul”, but what is the nature of man in relation to the nature of God. Catholics affirm that the nature of man is different in species from the nature of God. Mormons affirm that the nature of man is of the same species as God, just different in progress/rank.
I agree that Life is the union of body and soul, but I didn’t see where the nature of a soul is defined, like after it leaves our body upon death.

Sorry, but I don’t see any disagreeement in Core Doctrine (sources cited are authoritative but are they CORE DOCTORINE/SCRIPTURE) Net, we disagree on the background story church leaders created.

I would still like to read Catholic Doctrine that describes the essence of a soul after death and the essence of God.
 
CatholicGuy, thanks for the clear replsone, once again.
I believe the Catachism is considered a provisional guide to church doctorine and was first published in 1992.(wish it had been around when I was growing up Catholic)

Footnote indicate the source is Humani Generis (1950); Lateran Council V (1513)

I agree that Life is the union of body and soul, but I didn’t see where the nature of a soul is defined, like after it leaves our body upon death.

Sorry, but I don’t see any disagreeement in Core Doctrine (sources cited are authoritative but are they CORE DOCTORINE/SCRIPTURE) Net, we disagree on the background story church leaders created.

I would still like to read Catholic Doctrine that describes the essence of a soul after death and the essence of God.
Of course the sources cited are core doctrine. The Catechism of the Catholic Church expounds on official Catholic beliefs, with citation of authoritative Catholic sources. As you mentioned, the Fifth Lateran Council is referenced, which is an Ecumenical Council. For Catholics, Ecumenical Councils are inspired proceedings that are authoritative/binding doctrinal definitions.

What exactly are you talking about re: “the essence of a soul after death”? The issue we’ve been discussing has not been about what happens to the soul after death, but the nature of man in comparison to the nature of God (which has nothing to do with after death). Catholics don’t believe that we are of the same nature/species as God, while Mormons do. This is very simple.
 
There is nothing we have in common with the LDS when it comes to our religious beliefs. Yes Moral values here and there. What sets a Catholic apart from Mormons is the belief in the Holy Trinity. When a Catholic does a good deed he or she must realize that it is Christ’s work not ours. Be content in doing His work, find joy in His work. When a Mormon does a good deed he or she believes it is originating from themselves, not from the Most Holy Trinity. If they believed that this good deed originated from Jesus then they would believe in the Trinity and be a Catholic Christian. For a Catholic Jesus is not someone we look to as a great example rather we look towards Him for life itself, his example being joined to this reality. One belief is a result of our fallen nature; the very reason sin entered this world. The other knows this nature and through our Confessions and the love Jesus has for each of us we move towards our final destination. To be one community in and with our One God whom created us through Jesus for Jesus. If you can not be content with this even after you come to know it then you join with the fallen angel in His hatred of Jesus. Inocent or not. All sin that we all comit is against Jesus Himself whether we know it or not. This is just one of the reasons we as Chritsians have the Crucifix front and center. We have to know what has been forgiven.

In Christ
Rich
 
There is nothing we have in common with the LDS when it comes to our religious beliefs. Yes Moral values here and there. What sets a Catholic apart from Mormons is the belief in the Holy Trinity. When a Catholic does a good deed he or she must realize that it is Christ’s work not ours. Be content in doing His work, find joy in His work. When a Mormon does a good deed he or she believes it is originating from themselves, not from the Most Holy Trinity. If they believed that this good deed originated from Jesus then they would believe in the Trinity and be a Catholic Christian. For a Catholic Jesus is not someone we look to as a great example rather we look towards Him for life itself, his example being joined to this reality. One belief is a result of our fallen nature; the very reason sin entered this world. The other knows this nature and through our Confessions and the love Jesus has for each of us we move towards our final destination. To be one community in and with our One God whom created us through Jesus for Jesus. If you can not be content with this even after you come to know it then you join with the fallen angel in His hatred of Jesus. Inocent or not. All sin that we all comit is against Jesus Himself whether we know it or not. This is just one of the reasons we as Chritsians have the Crucifix front and center. We have to know what has been forgiven.

In Christ
Rich
Catholic, if you feel there is nothing in common then you put no weight whatsoever to the bible and have no understanding of your own faith.
 
CatholicGuy,
you stated there was a problem with the LDS view and said something like man and God ARE NOT of the same species.

I am asking for reference to the Catholic scripture, or doctrine that articultes how the post mortal soul is different than God, or any clarity on the subject. If you don’t have it, then stop slamming the Mormon view of something that at it’s core is unknowable to humans.
 
CatholicGuy,
you stated there was a problem with the LDS view and said something like man and God ARE NOT of the same species.

I am asking for reference to the Catholic scripture, or doctrine that articultes how the post mortal soul is different than God, or any clarity on the subject. If you don’t have it, then stop slamming the Mormon view of something that at it’s core is unknowable to humans.
I’m sure he will give you the reference you ask for as soon as you provide the references you’ve been asked for on another thread you are participating in.

Also, disagreements and discussions are not “slamming”.
 
CatholicGuy,
you stated there was a problem with the LDS view and said something like man and God ARE NOT of the same species.

I am asking for reference to the Catholic scripture, or doctrine that articultes how the post mortal soul is different than God, or any clarity on the subject. If you don’t have it, then stop slamming the Mormon view of something that at it’s core is unknowable to humans.
This is from an LDS source, on the differences between a Catholic view of God and an LDS view. In the context of deification v exaltation:
The doctrine of theosis presupposes that there is a fundamental distinction between uncreated being and created being. God, that is, the three divine persons who are the one God, are understood to be uncreated and eternal. God always has been divine and always will be divine. Human persons, on the other hand, are created from nothing—creatio ex nihilo. They are forever dependent on God for existence. Thus, the divine nature, the nature of God, is fundamentally different from human nature, the nature of human persons. In fact, one can speak of an ontological divide or chasm separating the two: the former is unoriginate, the latter is originate.
The doctrine of exaltation presupposes that God is of the same species as human persons. There is no distinction between uncreated and created beings or persons since all persons, divine as well as human, are uncreated. In other words, intelligence, the core or essence of every person (whether divine or human) is self-existent and eternal, uncreated and uncreatable. Through the process of spirit birth, intelligences are clothed by divine parents with spirit bodies and become autonomous, conscious selves. And just as with human children in relation to their human parents, the spirit children of divine parents possess the innate capacity, as a fact of their spirit birth, to progress and grow up into the likeness of their divine parents.
Thus, for the doctrine of theosis, to become divine means to unite in one created person both his or her own created human nature and the uncreated divine energies of the three uncreated divine persons. In other words, a divinized human person never ceases to be created and human; but insofar as that person is divinized, he or she becomes through grace what he or she is not by nature—divine. Furthermore, to speak of divinization by the divine energies, as opposed to the divine essence, is meant to reflect the ontological distinction between uncreated and created. Only God—the three divine persons—is divine essentially. Only the persons of the Trinity are uncreated and eternal by fact of their nature. Human persons cannot become divine essentially because this would be a logical contradiction. What humans are in essence, by nature, is created and dependent. The divine energies are God himself insofar as he shares his uncreated nature with created persons, thus divinizing them. In this sense, the divinized person is always both created and uncreated, finite and infinite: created and finite by nature, uncreated and infinite by grace, by reason of union with God’s divinizing energies. The divinized person becomes all that God is except for identity in essence, which is to say, without ceasing to be created and finite.
In contrast, within the context of the doctrine of exaltation, there is no ontological divide or distinction between human and divine—divine and human do not refer to ontological categories.3 Instead, divine and human signify different levels of progression within a continuum. In other words, some uncreated intelligences have progressed to the point of godhood (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost), while other uncreated intelligences have not and are thus dependent on those who have already done so to attain godhood themselves (human persons). Thus, because humans and God already share a like essence, at some future time humans, as exalted beings, can become exactly as God now is…
maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/papers/?paperID=7&chapterID=63

Emphasis is mine. What humans, and God is, are ontollogically different “species”.
 
TwoPekinGuys,
  • I agree, slamming was a bit much to use
  • how old are you?
Catholic Guy
I understand the Ecumenical Councils are inspired and produce minding doctrinal messages for the Church. I clearly agree our doctrinal messaged differ in this area.

I am trying to put it in perspective by stating
  • the differences do not come from core scripture.
  • the messages may be inspired, but they are about the unknowable while we are mortal
I don’t see how the different views have any impact on both our efforts to follow Christ’s teachings, so i rate the imprtance as a low 1 on a 10 pt scale.
 
CatholicGuy,
you stated there was a problem with the LDS view and said something like man and God ARE NOT of the same species.

I am asking for reference to the Catholic scripture, or doctrine that articultes how the post mortal soul is different than God, or any clarity on the subject. If you don’t have it, then stop slamming the Mormon view of something that at it’s core is unknowable to humans.
:rolleyes: Your continued insistence in bringing up “post mortal soul” shows that you simply do not understand what we’re talking about. It has nothing to do with the post-mortal state, so why do you insist on bringing that up? The soul exists now, doesn’t it? That’s what we’re talking about, the nature of man.

The Council of Chalcedon (another Ecumenical Council, which we hold to be inspired and doctrinally binding) specifically addresses this issue by discussing whether Jesus Christ had/has one or two natures. The Council defined that Jesus had/has two natures: one divine, and one human. This clearly demonstrates the Catholic view that God is of one nature (the divine one), and we humans are of another (human nature). When God the Son incarnated (came to this earth), He added a human nature to His person. This is known as the hypostatic union.

From the Catechism:
*
479 At the time appointed by God, the only Son of the Father, the eternal Word, that is, the Word and substantial Image of the Father, became incarnate; without losing his divine nature he has assumed human nature.*
*
470 Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”,97 in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity”. The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:98*

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p1.htm#468

As we can see, the Catholic view of God the Son’s Incarnation demonstrates our view on the distinction between human nature and God’s nature. When the Son Incarnated, He assumed a human nature, and He therefore had two natures, which is what we consider the “hypostatic union”.

In contrast, as I have already demonstrated, Mormons believe that God and man are of the same nature/species, therefore a “hypostatic union” doctrine would not make sense in Mormonism. As already quoted from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

“Gods and humans represent a single divine lineage, the same species of being, although they and he are at different stages of progress.”

eom.byu.edu/index.php/God_the_Father

You say that this is something that is “unknowable”, however it is clear that, the Mormon religion teaches that man and God are of the same species, only differing in their progress. If you are not aware of this teaching, then perhaps you need to research your religion more. If its unknowable, then why is your church teaching this? Did they just make it up if it’s unknowable? Obviously they don’t agree with your assessment. It seems as if you are sidestepping the issue.
 
TwoPekinGuys,
  • I agree, slamming was a bit much to use
  • how old are you?
Catholic Guy
I understand the Ecumenical Councils are inspired and produce minding doctrinal messages for the Church. I clearly agree our doctrinal messaged differ in this area.

I am trying to put it in perspective by stating
  • the differences do not come from core scripture.
  • the messages may be inspired, but they are about the unknowable while we are mortal
I don’t see how the different views have any impact on both our efforts to follow Christ’s teachings, so i rate the imprtance as a low 1 on a 10 pt scale.
What does our age have to do with anything?

Please stay on topic.
 
I am trying to put it in perspective by stating
  • the differences do not come from core scripture.
What exactly is your definition of “core scripture”? Catholics obviously accept more than the Bible as containing God’s Revelation, the Deposit of Faith. Mormons also accept more than the Bible. Whether or not it comes from “core scripture”, it is clear that this is a fundamental difference in our understandings of who humans are and who God is. Such areas are basic to any religion, which attempts to answer questions like “who/what are we?” and “who is God?” Therefore, this is obviously an important, fundamental difference between the religions.
  • the messages may be inspired, but they are about the unknowable while we are mortal
This does not make sense. If the message is inspired, then it comes from God, who reveals Himself to man. Therefore, you can’t just ignore it if its inspired and just say “it’s unknowable”. If the message is inspired, then it is knowable, because God revealed that information.
I don’t see how the different views have any impact on both our efforts to follow Christ’s teachings, so i rate the imprtance as a low 1 on a 10 pt scale.
Again, we’re talking about a fundamental concept, who we are as humans, and who God is, and the relationship between us.

If this is not important to you, then feel free to move on. 🤷
 
TwoPekinguys,
Actually, i felt you were being childish and ‘off topic’ by requesting i must respond to another thread first. So I asked about your age.

CatholicGuy,
Sorry but I don’t see any fundamental differences in how we see God.
I see differences in doctrine such as when the soul/spirit is created, etc. I’lve also addressed earlier why I think our Trinitiy differences are a red herring.

Inspired doctrine is still meant to be understood by uninspired readers. Just because a blind man touched an elephant (revelation) it doesn’t mean he can communicate it in it’s purity and fullness.

Example, we both believe we are reunited with our bodies at the Resurection. But you and I also know our bodies turn to dust and our atoms are used by other bodies over the centuries. So since we can’t get our old body back, do we get a new body? Or is this doctrine more symbolic than literal.
 
TwoPekinguys,
Actually, i felt you were being childish and ‘off topic’ by requesting i must respond to another thread first. So I asked about your age.

CatholicGuy,
Sorry but I don’t see any fundamental differences in how we see God.
I see differences in when the soul/sprit is created.

Inspired doctrine is still meant to be understood by uninspired readers. Just because a blind man touched an elephant (revelation) it doesn’t mean he can communicate it in it’s purity and fullness.

Example, we both believe we are reunited with our bodies at the Resurection. But you and I also know our bodies turn to dust and our atoms are used by other bodies over the centuries. So since we can’t get our old body back, do we get a new body? Or is this doctrine more symbolic than literal.
If you reread that post, you will see that it was quite on topic.

It was about your call for references. In addressing your call for references, I was also pointing out your failure to provide them when asked.

I also find your term “childish” totally rude, inappropriate, and against forum rules.
 
TwoPekinguys,
Stop hijacking this thread

I stopped responding in the other thread because I found you rude and immature in your discourse. Your goal is simply to bash people rather than increase understanding.
 
TwoPekinguys,
Stop hijacking this thread

I stopped responding in the other thread because I found you rude and immature in your discourse. Your goal is simply to bash people rather than increase understanding.
Just so you know, your post is being reported.
  1. I have hijacked nothing. My post was directly related to conversation currently in progress.
  2. I have no goal of bashing anyone, and I resent that statement. Also, please provide an example of where I bashed anyone.
Telling the truth, whether you like the truth or not does increase understanding.

I also happen to believe that you stopped responding in that other thread because your anti-catholicsm was showing, and you were being called out on it.

Again, your comments, and name calling are inappropriate, and are being reported to the mods.
 
CatholicGuy,
Sorry but I don’t see any fundamental differences in how we see God.
I see differences in doctrine such as when the soul/spirit is created, etc. I’lve also addressed earlier why I think our Trinitiy differences are a red herring.
Unfortunately your own leaders do not agree with you. For example, please read Jeffrey Holland’s October 2007 Conference talk: The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent. Also Callister’s talk from the October 2009 Conference: Joseph Smith-Prophet of the Restoration.

It is clear to anyone familiar with the traditional Trinity and the Mormon Godhead that there are very fundamental differences in how we see God. Here are a few:

-Mormons believe that the Father has a body. Trinitarians do not.
-Mormons believe that the Son was created/organized by the Father (and the Heavenly Mother), just like we were (in your theology). Trinitarians believe that the Son is co-eternal with the Father and was not created.
-Mormons believe that God is of the same species as we are. Trinitarians believe that God is of a different species from us.
-Mormons believe that the Father is married to Heavenly Mother. Trinitarians do not believe that the Father is married.
Etc.

There are multiple differences in how we see God, and Mormons frequently reference such differences when they claim that the “true” beliefs on who God is have been “restored”, as evidenced in the above two Conference talks. So, everyone else can see that there are fundamental differences (including your own church leaders), except you, it seems.
Inspired doctrine is still meant to be understood by uninspired readers. Just because a blind man touched an elephant (revelation) it doesn’t mean he can communicate it in it’s purity and fullness.
Sorry, this does not address the issue. You claim that what we’re talking about is unknowable, which doesn’t fit what “revelation” is all about. It is about making the unknowable known.
Example, we both believe we are reunited with our bodies at the Resurection. But you and I also know our bodies turn to dust and our atoms are used by other bodies over the centuries. So since we can’t get our old body back, do we get a new body? Or is this doctrine more symbolic than literal.
Obviously it’s not symbolic. We all believe in a literal, bodily resurrection. The specifics of it have not been revealed. In contrast, we are talking about a topic that we believe has been revealed, therefore your analogy does not work. Especially when we’re talking about a topic as fundamental as who we are and who God is.
 
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