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Todd520
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LongJourney, If I came across as professing we are “THE SAME” my apologize, I know there are real differences.
My goal is to put some of the differences in perspective.
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My goal is to put some of the differences in perspective.
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lax16
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Todd - I am a weekend warrior myself! However, I have spent many hours studying the “Jewishness of Catholicism” (my own term) and can (and have) spent much time discussing this on CAF with Mormons.
(I highly recommend reading the newsletters from the Association of Hebrew Catholics for more information on this topic.)
You have to understand, Catholics do not define God differently than Jews. As Catholics, we can read the Hebrew Bible/OT and see the fulfillment of the prophecy. Jews are still waiting for the fulfillment of the prophecy.
Mormons believe in a different God than the Jews and Catholics. He does not have a body and God the Father has never been seen in human form. (Obviously Catholics believe that He became man in Jesus Christ).
The Trinity is a different topic that has been covered many times on other threads. I am not opposed to it, I just don’t want to get off topic.
Please answer how Mormons can quote the OT and believe in a God that is different than the God of the OT?
When God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, He did not appear as a man, right?
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Todd520
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I don’t think it was till the first Vatican council that Catholics standardized their interpretation that God had no form
The 13 Principles of the Jewish Faith were not set down and published until 1100-1200.
Before that standardization I believe there was strong evidence Christians and Jews saw God with a body.
For other biblical references,
- God said, “Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26).
- Jacob declared that he had seen God “face to face” (Genesis 32:30).
- Moses also spoke with God “face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend” (Exodus 33:11).
In the New Testament, when the resurrected Christ appeared to His Apostles, He told them, “Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:39).
How we interpret these references doesn’t change what God actually did in the Bible or is capable of doing. I’d like to know you see the LDS God is practically and significantly different then your God (pls provide references for me to read).
And let’s not get hung up on the Virgin birth as the outcome was the same however it happened.
Tks
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PaulDupre
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Mormons believe that their god is an ascended human. So they believe that he is a product of the universe, composed of matter and exists in time. So of course they cannot understand this verse.
Christians understand that God preceded and created space, time and matter, and so God lives outside of time and space. Therefore every point in what we would call time is eternally present to God. And therefore, the existence and form of the body of Jesus, in the awareness of God, has always existed. And therefore, man is created in the image of God the Son, a person who is a spirit united with a physical body.
Paul
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CatholicGuyNY
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This is interesting, though I’ve never heard this said before. By saying that we’re created in the image of God the Son, are you implying that this “image” is different from the “image” of God the Father or the Holy Spirit? As we see in Genesis 1:26, God says “let US make man in OUR image”, so presumably, God (the Father) is talking to the Son and the Holy Spirit, and it is in their (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) image that we are created in, and not just God the Son (though I’m not sure that you were implying that). So if this image is common for all of the divine Persons (since it is “our”/their image), it couldn’t include the Son’s “future” body, since neither the Father nor the Spirit have ever been corporeal.
As far as I’ve read, traditional Christians do not ascribe any “physicality” to the “image” of God that we’re created in, though I do find your rationale very interesting.
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Todd520
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Paul I need you to put up or ---- -----.
So far in my studies I’ve not seen it stated the LDS God is an ascended human. Please provide an official reference that articulates your position.
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CatholicGuyNY
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I believe what Paul is talking about is the numerous references to the Father being an “exalted man”. If you search “exalted man” at LDS.org, you’ll find a number of references in the Ensign, most of which reference the King Follett Discourse. What does it mean that God the Father is an “exalted man”?
lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=84010fd41d93b010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&hideNav=1&pageNumber=1&maxResults=20&NARROW_BY=MAGAZINES%2FENSIGN&query=%22exalted+man%22&bucket=AllChurchContent&dateFrom=&dateTo=&AUTHOR_CATEGORY=&AUTHOR_NAME=&FORMAT=&dateFromDisplay=&dateToDisplay=&findByAuthor=
Then of course there’s this from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:
“Thus, the Father became the Father at some time before “the beginning” as humans know it, by experiencing a mortality similar to that experienced on earth.”
eom.byu.edu/index.php/God_the_Father
This clearly states that the Father “became” the Father at some point, and therefore was not always “the Father”, and he did this by experiencing a mortality similar to that experienced on earth.
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SirThomasMore
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SirThomasMore
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Todd, please read your “church’s” doctrinal history.
You have never heard about your “prophet” who declared, “as man is, God once was, as God is, man may become”?
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zaffiroborant
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They keep explaining it because YOU don’t understand it.
Sacred Tradition is not subsequent to or added on by the Church, it is the whole of the faith given to the Apostles from the beginning. While you may not believe this you should at least be able to understand the idea. Dianaiad and Pahoran can get it what is your trouble?
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PaulDupre
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The others beat me to it, but yes, the LDS org teaches that God the Father is an exalted man (i.e.: an ascended human), They also teach that gods and men are of the same species (human), therefore the LDS god is a human being, though exalted (ascended).
I know you are new to Mormonism, but are you saying that they have successfully hidden this 180 year-old teaching from you? Milk before meat, eh? Time to eat the meat, brother.
en.wikisource.org/wiki/King_Follett_Discourse
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Todd520
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My confustion stems from reading they are seperate components that combine to give you the word of God. My bad if you read it differently
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zaffiroborant
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Not sure how you get separate from “form one” or “separate” from inseparable it may be a reading comprehension problem. and like I said it is not shared by other LDS posters, they may not agree but they are able to understand it unlike you:shrug:
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Natuiojimen
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Todd520
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No, I think I’m spot on for this one, maybe another LDS can weigh in instead of us two just arguing.
I said they were “seperate components that combine to give you the word of God”
I did not say the seperate components were complete in and of themselves.
Here is a simple analogy for you
If you combine oxygen and hydrogen atoms (the seperate components) you create a new substance H20 (water).
It is a completely new substance, practically inseparable into the original building blocks.
Now to use your words: **ST + SS = SD **
(sacred tradition) + (sacred scripture) = (inseparable sacred deposit)
Clearly you cannot get the sacred deposit without combining the two compontents, right
I said they were “seperate components that combine to give you the word of God”
I did not say the seperate components were complete in and of themselves.
Here is a simple analogy for you
If you combine oxygen and hydrogen atoms (the seperate components) you create a new substance H20 (water).
It is a completely new substance, practically inseparable into the original building blocks.
Now to use your words: **ST + SS = SD **
(sacred tradition) + (sacred scripture) = (inseparable sacred deposit)
Clearly you cannot get the sacred deposit without combining the two compontents, right
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Todd,
Sorry I have abandoned this thread and you have kept up and went head on with it.
I hope you forgive me for not following up.
I have to admit, I wanted to watch it unfold without my interference.
Now that I look back, I am ashamed I did not challenge many posts on this thread that needed challenging.
Please forgive me for my unusual interest in seeing how things unfold.
You have done a wonderful job of replying to these things, and sadly you have also given me the evidence I needed that agreement amoung believers is a pipe dream.
That is not to say you personally are not making the effort Todd. I have a guess, and I could be wrong, but my guess is you want all to be one as Jesus stated.
You are here in a catholic forum, and this enviornment is not easy for you to be in to b. egin with.
That is to me evidence you are brave and very sincere.
Sorry I have abandoned this thread and you have kept up and went head on with it.
I hope you forgive me for not following up.
I have to admit, I wanted to watch it unfold without my interference.
Now that I look back, I am ashamed I did not challenge many posts on this thread that needed challenging.
Please forgive me for my unusual interest in seeing how things unfold.
You have done a wonderful job of replying to these things, and sadly you have also given me the evidence I needed that agreement amoung believers is a pipe dream.
That is not to say you personally are not making the effort Todd. I have a guess, and I could be wrong, but my guess is you want all to be one as Jesus stated.
You are here in a catholic forum, and this enviornment is not easy for you to be in to b. egin with.
That is to me evidence you are brave and very sincere.
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stormy99
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**How can your God be our God when we don’t believe our God has a flesh and bones body? And we don’t believe he evolved to a God like state from a regular human?
stormy **
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mtolympus
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Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?
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RebeccaJ
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