V
VAC
Guest
Is it appropriate to be sung during a mass such as the upcoming feast of Saints Peter and Paul at the end of June?
- Status
P
PhilotheaZ
Guest
It is specifically part of the liturgy at the Easter Vigil, but I have never heard it used (as a hymn?) at any other Mass.
B
benedictgal
Guest
The Litany of the Saints is generally used for the Easter Vigil and for ordniations (diaconate, priesthood and episcopal). Now, it was also used as the entrance processional for Pope John Paul’s funeral Mass and Pope Benedict’s installation Mass.
VAC, why not use “By All Your Saints Still Striving” as the entrance for the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul. It has a special verse for June 29th, as well as January 25th (Conversion of St. Paul) and February 22nd (Chair of St. Peter). If your procession is long, you can certainly use that hymn and the three verses specific to the two apostles.
How Firm a Foundation would also work as the offertory (since, Peter is our rock). The recessional could very well be God We Praise You or Holy God, We Praise Thy Name, since both are the English versions of the Church’s great hymn of praise, Te Deum.
Communion could be Draw Us in the Spirit’s Tehter, Alleluia Sing to Jesus, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence or At that First Eucharist.
VAC, why not use “By All Your Saints Still Striving” as the entrance for the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul. It has a special verse for June 29th, as well as January 25th (Conversion of St. Paul) and February 22nd (Chair of St. Peter). If your procession is long, you can certainly use that hymn and the three verses specific to the two apostles.
How Firm a Foundation would also work as the offertory (since, Peter is our rock). The recessional could very well be God We Praise You or Holy God, We Praise Thy Name, since both are the English versions of the Church’s great hymn of praise, Te Deum.
Communion could be Draw Us in the Spirit’s Tehter, Alleluia Sing to Jesus, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence or At that First Eucharist.
S
SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
We also sing it at baptisms.
That being said, it seems to me that the best way to honor particular saints would be to use the First Eucharistic Prayer where all their names are included rather than doing it through the music.
B
benedictgal
Guest
However, the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul is a huge feast. There are hymns written specifically for this occasion, such as By All Your Saints Still Striving and Two Noble Witnesses. However, By All Your Saints Still Striving is the better of the two because the tune comes from All Glory, Laud and Honor.
Furthermore, St. Peter is the principle patron of the Church, as he was the first pope. In fact, apart from the Blessed Mother, Sts. Peter, Paul and John the Baptist each have multiple feasts. St. Peter shares June 29th with St. Paul; however, there is the feast of the Chair of St. Peter on February 22nd and the Conversoin of St. Paul on January 25th (which is the patronal feast for the Paulist Fathers). Now, St. John the Baptist has the Solemnity of his Nativity (June 24th) and the feast of his martyrdom (sometime in August, I believe).
Therefore, because the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul is a feast of the Universal Church, it is certainly fitting to have hymns in honor of these two saints; however, the Litany of the Saints is not one of them.
V
VAC
Guest
Thanks for all your suggestions and (name removed by moderator)ut. I ditched the litany after reading your comments.
I put in the following
Take up your cross
Blest are They
Let all mortal Flesh keep silence
Faith of our Fathers
We almost never get time for a meditation song anymore, since we got a deacon, our priest uses this time for announcements.
I was seriously looking at *‘from all thy saints in warfare’ *which might be another version of *‘for all your saints still striving’ *which I couldn’t find.
However, Benedictgal, could you please explain to me how “Let all mortal Flesh” fits into this liturgy???
It’s a great choice (cause my group knows it
)
but I don’t get the connection
I put in the following
Take up your cross
Blest are They
Let all mortal Flesh keep silence
Faith of our Fathers
We almost never get time for a meditation song anymore, since we got a deacon, our priest uses this time for announcements.
I was seriously looking at *‘from all thy saints in warfare’ *which might be another version of *‘for all your saints still striving’ *which I couldn’t find.
However, Benedictgal, could you please explain to me how “Let all mortal Flesh” fits into this liturgy???
It’s a great choice (cause my group knows it
)but I don’t get the connection
B
benedictgal
Guest
Read the lyrics. Remember, after the miracle of the draught of fish, St. Peter nearly lies prostrate in front of Jesus and says, “Leave me, Lord, for I am a sinful man.” “Let all mortal flesh keep silence and with fear and trembling stand,” pretty much sums up what St. Peter had gone through in that instant and when he made his declaration that Jesus was the Christ.Thanks for all your suggestions and (name removed by moderator)ut. I ditched the litany after reading your comments.
I put in the following
Take up your cross
Blest are They
Let all mortal Flesh keep silence
Faith of our Fathers
We almost never get time for a meditation song anymore, since we got a deacon, our priest uses this time for announcements.
I was seriously looking at *‘from all thy saints in warfare’ *which might be another version of *‘for all your saints still striving’ *which I couldn’t find.
However, Benedictgal, could you please explain to me how “Let all mortal Flesh” fits into this liturgy???
It’s a great choice (cause my group knows it
but I don’t get the connection
VAC, why not try “By All Your Saints Still Striving” as the opening hymn, since the third verse is specific to both Sts. Peter and Paul. You can find it in the GIA Worship III hymnal. In fact, you could very well resurrect that hymn on January 25th, since next year, the Church has declared this feast to be a solemnity because of the Jubilee Year of St. Paul.
The tune is the same as “All Glory Laud and Honor.”
“How Firm a Foundation” certainly better fits the solemnity than Take Up Your Cross because, although St. Peter was martyred by crucifixion, he is the rock, the firm foundation, on which Jesus founded his Churhc. In fact, this song perfectly fits in with the Gospel reading for that day.
“For all the Saints” does not talk about warfare. In fact, it is either a song a heard or behind “By All Your Saints Still Striving”.
I wouldn’t go with Blest Are You because it just doesn’t tie in very well with the solemnity. Perhaps putting “How Firm a Foundation” instead would make a better fit. Finally, for the recessional, the Te Deum, as found in God We Praise Thee or Holy, God, We Praise Thy Name, would make a better fit than Faith of our Fathers because that is what the Church has been singing at every high feast.
What I have learned over the years is that the music needs to take into account the solemnity of the Mass, the readings and, in this case, the nature of the particular patrons, the two greatest apostles. Just some food for thought.
V
VAC
Guest
How firm a foundation I’m not familiar with and as is the case with “By all your saints still striving” which I like because of the specific verses for each saint.
I not only have to know the song, but know it well enough to lead it. I’d have to extrapolate guitar chords out of the Adoremeus hymnal, (which I can do.) learn it and teach it. in 2 weeks EEK!
Our pianist is not always on the ball, although she has improved greatly over the last couple years, She sometimes will siimply choose not to play something we have planned.(However, this has forced me to become a stronger leader. I’ve been told by church leadership that I cannot ask her to leave. Acapella is a possibility also.
I’ll look over those 2 songs again, I have until Sunday after next to prepare them for practice.
Thanks for giving me the reason to play ‘let all mortal flesh’
I love that song.
B
benedictgal
Guest
Actually, you don’t need a guitar, nor a piano, for that matter. When our organist left to return to the Cathedral, our cantor led us acapella. The effect was really nice. In fact, when our choir takes a break, our PV leads us in singing traditional hymns (sans musical instrument).
Now, GIA does have a guitar accompanyment for the Worship III hymnal (which is where By All Your Saints Still Striving, How Firm a Foundation, et all, are found). The guitar is not meant for these pieces. It’s like serving filet mignon with Mrs. Baird’s Bread or serving Paula Deen’s Smithfield Ham Sausage with a donut. They don’t go well together at all. All you get is heartburn.
G
Guitar
Guest
This statement is like other examples given in the past here - the ***style *of guitar playing you are familiar with and have heard in church is not meant for these pieces. Just as the recorder as most people have heard it played gives heartburn. And violin as played by beginner gives heartburn. Yet we have our Frans Bruggens and Dan Laurins and Genevieve Laceys and Amsterdam Loeki Stardust Quartets and Yehudi Menuhins and Reinhard Goebbels and Andrew Manzes.
Guitar in the style of a lutenist working from a basso continuo part, for example, accompanies singing very well for a large number of traditional hymns. It accompanies a voice and needs a clear melodic lead as well and does not lead on its own the way organ can, but it when used appropriately in a suitable setting it supports much traditional hymnody very well.
Style and instrument are not the same thing.
I don’t have Worship III yet but I’ll be interested to see what the guitar parts look like. A lot of publishers make the condescending assumption that one does not need to know anything about playing guitar in order to write parts for it, and boy does it show in some publications.
V
VAC
Guest
I agree with you. I often make my own arrangements instead of using what’s written in OCP and GIA publications. There are also times I don’t agree with their chords. It depends upon your skill as a guitarist and knowledge of chord construction and how it fits into the melody of the song in my experience.
Yes, some of the old hymns cry out for a piano/organ. On a good day, our keyboardist comes through, sometimes I have to pinch hit. But you use what you have and who you have at a given time.
We are all volunteers. I dont’ like to spring too many new songs on them at one time. I do appreciate and have used many suggestions I’ve read about on this site…
We don’t have a building yet, we meet in a high school cafeteria, we practice in a hallway without the keyboard, because it is being used for the following mass
You can see some of our pics here and listen to clips of practice.
You’ll see we’re a ways away from the organ/cathedral scene. It’s not a professional recording. home.comcast.net/~bjxxiii9amchoir/site/?/page/Our_Music/
P
peary
Guest
**I remember when the Litany of Saints was sung during Lent or during the Exposition rite. It used to be sung in Latin chant. The priest would say the saints’ names and both choir and congregation would respond “Ora pro nobis.” **
B
benedictgal
Guest
When I was helping out with the Youth Cursillo, the musician insisted that we use the guitar for O Come, O Come Emmanuel, Attende Domine (English Version) and O Sun of Justice. He strummed loud and long and totally killed the hymns.
The same thing has happend when Alleluia, Sing to Jesus and Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence are played on the guitar. The folks down here strum loud and long and manage to kill whatever beauty is in these hymns. Even the Spanish traditional hymns get slaughtered to the point that they sound like something out of a conjunto (Tejano bar band).
On the flip side, They’ll Know We are Christians (a song I detest, especially because it sounds like Tusk), sounds equally wretched on the organ, as does another song (which is pretty bad), Sing to the Mountains.
It’s not that I’m being condescending, but, given my city and the fact that I’ve been to just about every parish in town, I’ve heard it all.
V
VAC
Guest
I play “let all mortal flesh” by fingerpicking on the guitar. I think it sounds beautiful with the piano!! I ***fell in love ***with the melody the way it plays on the guitar before I even noticed the lyrics.
Sorry about the disappearing photos on my website… I think it’s a comcast thing…I’m working on it.
G
Guitar
Guest
My point exactly. Some guitarists only know how to strum but it is quite obvious that this does not mean that guitar can only be strummed. You should hear Mark Hanson play Let All Mortal Flesh on steel string acoustic - that’s a listening arangement rather than an accompaniment but it illustrates the point. Strumming would indeed be awful in those hymns, but at least three of those can work beautifully with a well-played and appropriate guitar arrangement in a suitable context.
G
GabrielPenfield
Guest
Hello everyone, I’m new here. I’m also still struggling with ideas for Peter & Paul, with (name removed by moderator)ut from my pastor. We are using the We Celebrate Hymnal, which includes “By All Your Saints Still Striving” but unfortunately is missing the combined Peter and Paul verses (though it has the other two). I will have a choir that day, so perhaps we’ll just add a verse in between those sung by the congregation.
I would like to clear up the confusion between BenedictGal and VAC about “From All Thy Saints in Warfare.” **VAC ** was not talking about “For All the Saints” and is correct about the altered text: “From All Thy Saints in Warfare” is the original song with text by Horatio Nelson (1823-1913). It is found with its original lyrics including 16 saint-specific lyrics in The Adoremus Hymnal. It is set to the traditional English tune KINGS LYNN. The song “By All Your Saints Still Striving” is a modest rewrite by Jerry Godwin, including 21 saint-specific verses as seen in Worship, 3rd ed.. It is set to the more familiar ST. THEODULPH tune (“All Glory, Laud and Honor”).
My pastor asked me about “What Fairer Light,” which porthos11 mentioned. He gave me a recording of it and said it was a favorite of his. I was able to find it, set to DECORA LUX, in The Westminster Hymnal. Unfortunately the music was on one page and the lyrics on another, so I reset the whole thing. Hopefully my choir will be able to prepare it quickly.
I have used in the past “Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones,” which mentions angels (prevalent in the liturgy) and saints. My congregation does not know “How Firm a Foundation,” so we’ll do “The Church’s One Foundation” instead, which includes saints in verse 3. To add some interest, we will do “There Is a Balm in Gilead” which mentions Peter and Paul, and is a recent favorite of the congregation. “Only This I Want” might also be a good choice, with its theme of striving to bear one’s cross and wear the crown of the Lord, which is supported by the 2nd Reading.
While we will not be using “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence” for this day, I like the idea of it being fingerpicked on guitar. I have a guitarist who I’m sure could work wonders with it. Thanks for the great idea!
I would like to clear up the confusion between BenedictGal and VAC about “From All Thy Saints in Warfare.” **VAC ** was not talking about “For All the Saints” and is correct about the altered text: “From All Thy Saints in Warfare” is the original song with text by Horatio Nelson (1823-1913). It is found with its original lyrics including 16 saint-specific lyrics in The Adoremus Hymnal. It is set to the traditional English tune KINGS LYNN. The song “By All Your Saints Still Striving” is a modest rewrite by Jerry Godwin, including 21 saint-specific verses as seen in Worship, 3rd ed.. It is set to the more familiar ST. THEODULPH tune (“All Glory, Laud and Honor”).
My pastor asked me about “What Fairer Light,” which porthos11 mentioned. He gave me a recording of it and said it was a favorite of his. I was able to find it, set to DECORA LUX, in The Westminster Hymnal. Unfortunately the music was on one page and the lyrics on another, so I reset the whole thing. Hopefully my choir will be able to prepare it quickly.
I have used in the past “Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones,” which mentions angels (prevalent in the liturgy) and saints. My congregation does not know “How Firm a Foundation,” so we’ll do “The Church’s One Foundation” instead, which includes saints in verse 3. To add some interest, we will do “There Is a Balm in Gilead” which mentions Peter and Paul, and is a recent favorite of the congregation. “Only This I Want” might also be a good choice, with its theme of striving to bear one’s cross and wear the crown of the Lord, which is supported by the 2nd Reading.
While we will not be using “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence” for this day, I like the idea of it being fingerpicked on guitar. I have a guitarist who I’m sure could work wonders with it. Thanks for the great idea!
B
benedictgal
Guest
Having suffered through “Only This I Want”, from the OCP arsenal, I wouldn’t insert this hymn for any Mass.
The Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul is the time to bring out the best of Church’s tradition of sacred music. One could very well pick “Shepherd of Souls”, since it would go with the fact that (from the vigil Gospel readnig) Jesus gave St. Peter the additional task of feeding and tending his sheep and lambs. Furthermore, in the Preface for the Apostles, the Apostles are referred to as shepherds.
“At Thaf First Eucharist” might also be good because it reflects both on Communion and on the universality of the Church.
V
VAC
Guest
here’s what I planned and practiced. I didn’t want to spring too many ‘new’ songs on the group
Take up your cross
Blest are they
Let all mortal flesh keep silence
Faith of our Fathers
The last one was ‘new’ to my group, and I didn’t have time to learn and do justice to "For all the saints in warfare, but I’m keeping it in mind for the future.
I repeat that ‘Let all mortal flesh’ is gorgeous fingerpicked on the guitar!!!, but if my pianist is on the ball that day, I’ll get her to play the intro solo while the choir takes communion.
Thanks for all your ideas
Take up your cross
Blest are they
Let all mortal flesh keep silence
Faith of our Fathers
The last one was ‘new’ to my group, and I didn’t have time to learn and do justice to "For all the saints in warfare, but I’m keeping it in mind for the future.
I repeat that ‘Let all mortal flesh’ is gorgeous fingerpicked on the guitar!!!, but if my pianist is on the ball that day, I’ll get her to play the intro solo while the choir takes communion.
Thanks for all your ideas
G
GabrielPenfield
Guest
benedictgal, you are funny! I’ve never really liked “Only This I Want” that much and find the transition from chorus to verse awkward, but the text is good and my congregation will sing it. I am not a big fan of the OCP stuff, but having had “Glory & Praise” for many years in the pews, the congregation has learned and sings well on a number of those pieces. And after all, how could we survive without such G&P classics as “On Eagle’s Wings” and “Here I Am, Lord” ?
You mention “Shepherd of Souls;” do you mean “refresh and bless” or “in love come, feed us” ? I prefer the latter, but it is not as well known. I presume you mean the first.
Considering that my choir is singing “What Fairer Light” (text from the 5th century), I think that will help keep us on track with sacred tradition. Actually mine is a very conservative church, and I tend to use the expected traditional tunes on all the big feasts. This feast just doesn’t have so many “expected” hymns. My choir will also sing a contemporary but not well known song “Their Message Goes Forth” which quotes the Vigil Psalm. Actually, the congregation will probably get too much choir this weekend, as it is their final Sunday till fall and we will also sing a choral benediction. I will possibly sing “What Fairer Light” at the other Masses so that everyone gets to hear it (and so that it will please the pastor; we are mutually supportive of each other).
I enjoy “At That First Eucharist” and use it often as well.
It is a privilege to hear everyone’s analysis of the readings and the search for appropriate liturgical music. Can’t wait for the next interesting discussion.
- Status