Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary - over the top?!

[justasking4]

Abria- (This is Jason’s Fiancee writting)

I am think I may be able to understand your conflict with the specific litany mentioned and to the concept of praying to Mary or through Mary for intercession.

I was raised Lutheran and attended Lutheran or Methodist churches most of my life, and have always had a very strict sense of what it means to worship “GOD” and have always believed that Jesus is my intercessor and that Prayer belongs TO “GOD”

and never would have questioned this line of thinking except, I met a very nice boy who is very devotely Catholic and since he is very Devote and I believe in being “Equally Yoked” I must decide to keep the boy or keep my faith.

(I have decided to keep the boy)

however, My Spirit has not yet been convicted.

I am one of those “Lukewarm” people. I can Conceive the Ideal of Venerating Mary one minute and feel completely torn by it the next.

Those thing ingrained in us as children are extremely difficult to turn away from. Personally, I feel as though i am abandoning my Faith and Worry deeply about what will happen if I am Wrong.

You may try to think about way’s you stand in your own way of having peace with this issue. I know whenever I come to a place were I feel convicted on this issue in particular or other Catholic issues in general. I try to find reasons why the Church is Wrong I naturally play the devils advocate and create conflict within myself.

I do not know what your religious background is or the reason you have broached this issue however, it feels like you are trying to believe in Prayer to Mary and honor and venerating of her as the mother of Christ. Ultimately there are no clear cut answers in religion, we will not know on this earth for sure that a Particular course is the right one we must fill the gap logic leaves with Faith. Ultimately we must take a leap of Faith.

Let me encourage you to search the scriptures on these issues. Compare what the scriptures teach about mary with the catholic church or any church for that matter.

 

[justasking4]

jabelltulsa;2524072]I have already pointed this out - the NT reflects the OT. Things are all made new. We just see this differently, but my teachings come from the Church that Christ left us. If you don’t believe that Christ was brought to us through a sinless being, then I don’t see how you can conclude that he himself was not born of sin.

If the scriptures taught Mary was without sin then i would say you have the truth. However the scriptures are quite clear that all of mankind is in slave to sin including Mary. It was not necessary for Jesus to be brought into the world through a sinless human. Remember the " “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and** for that reason **the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:35. Jesus is holy not because Mary is sinless but that the HS and power of God was able to make that happen. No need to think she needed to be sinless.

Cite, please. I attest that this is not the teachings of the infallible Church.

Are you saying this is not an infallible teaching of the church i.e. she was sinless?

True that, but Mary was the other participant in that Conception (Let It be done unto me). Granted the HS is free from sin, but wouldn’t Mary have to be too?

No.

You make no relationship between the OT and the NT concerning the Ark concept, so I don’t know where to go from here.

The writers of NT never do so why so we? This is where we should expect to see it. Those closest to her and Christ.

I can only say that Christ makes all things new. In order to make things new, you have to be referring to the old things (read this as Old Testament and therefore, the Ark of the Old Covenant becoming the New - the Old Covenant becomes the New Covenant in this sense of renewal)

This particular reference occurs in only a couple of places. One in 2 Corinthians and the other in Revelations. None of it in terms of what you say here.

No, I don’t speculate in matters of dogma. The Church is my Teacher. I follow what She says. You do not. I have stated clearly what I have been taught by the Church. The Church uses Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture.

Since all we know about Mary comes from the scriptures and the scriptures never say this about her, then when your church makes claims about her that are not in scripture they are speculating. Take her assumption. Its not mention for centuries. There are no eyewitness accounts for it.

Well, some Scriptural references I can make for Mary is that she is His mother, she asked Him to perform His first public miracle (and He did so), an Angel called her Full of Grace (Kecharitomene). He causes us to revere and honor her by His example. I, for one, will be following suit.

Just because these things happened in the gospels doesn’t mean it applies to you today. There is no such honor-veneration given to Mary in the Scriptures. There are no grounds to do so except if you want to speculate.

 

[jabelltulsa]

Are you saying this is not an infallible teaching of the church i.e. she was sinless?

I’m not sure what you are asking: Was Mary sinless according to Catholic dogma? Yes.

How about this: “Blessed art thou among women (meaning all time), and Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb (Jesus)”

Both are being referred to as Blessed. The Fruit of her womb is the Incarnated 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity. There is a connection there. Why would the Angel of God refer to them both as Blessed at the same time? Because their human natures where both pleasing to God. In order for them to be pleasing to God, they had to be sin-free.

Only good trees bear Good Fruit. He (the Fruit of her womb) was perfect. What does that say about the tree?

 

[LilyM]

If the scriptures taught Mary was without sin then i would say you have the truth. However the scriptures are quite clear that all of mankind is in slave to sin including Mary.

And Eve according to you, since Eve according to you is the woman of Genesis 3.15 and therefore the enemy of satan.

And on your interpretation, since there are places that refer to ‘all’ Jerusalem coming to see Jesus it’s clear that every single man, woman and child of 'em came to see him. Which is rot.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Since all we know about Mary comes from the scriptures and the scriptures never say this about her, then when your church makes claims about her that are not in scripture they are speculating. Take her assumption. Its not mention for centuries. There are no eyewitness accounts for it.

However the problem is that the Church is not a protestant denomination that reads the Bible and comes with it’s own interpretation of it. The Church uses the full deposit of faith, which isn’t only contained in the Scriptures and teaches us with an authority given to it by Christ.

And now that we are at it. Where does the Bible say that we must stick to Bible alone? It is not in the Scriptures and thus by your logic you’re only speculating. In fact you’re actually also speculating about what the Bible is because nowhere does it say that the books you’re using are inspired and you have yet to name a person or a body of persons who has the authority to decide such thing outside of the sole authority of the Bible which you proclaim.

So my point is: measure with the same ruler…

 

[jabelltulsa]

Let me encourage you to search the scriptures on these issues. Compare what the scriptures teach about mary with the catholic church or any church for that matter.

Let me assure you that Scripture is my First resource.

Let me also assure you that the Catholic Church encourages me to search the Bible on these issues.

That said, Let me ask you this is every question we have about our spiritual life written in Black and White in the Bible.

Let me also, ask you if the bible is to be my ultimate authority. does it not serve me well to also, have a deep knowledge of the Bibles origins.

For it is just as easy to say that the bible is just a book written by man as it is to say the Church is a organization run by men and to in one fail swoop, rob them both of there authority.

we trust and it is by Faith that we believe in the bible and by Faith that we believe in the church. we do not have the privilege of seeing God face to face and having him affirm for us the right course of action and define for us proper conduct and that leaves us with one course of action as believers to examine an issue thoroughly (ie thorough Prayer, reading of the scripture and conversation with clergy and men and women of faith.) and ultimately the conclusions we come to are based in faith. because nothing we believe can be definitively proven.

It is not a fact that Christ was the son of God. we believe that, you believe it because the Bible says so, Catholics believe it because they believe Christ left the church for them and the Bible was divinely inspired by the HS through the church. that Christ left for them.

I simply find there (being the Catholic church) line of thinking more compelling.

I Believe in the Bible by Faith. Therefore all things come by Faith for me.

ultimately, whether or not to be Catholic and believe in Catholicism will also come by Faith.

as I have gone far from the topic at hand I will leave this subject now, Thank you for your response and know that I do not take these issues lightly.

 

[Mjae]

Simplistic I know, but, sometimes I imagine God as a father and famous artist who is showing Mary, his masterpiece, to a visitor, saying proudly, 'See what I have made for mySon! Isn’t she wonderful?"

And I imagine the visitor shrugging and walking away, saying 'Ehhn, not so much.

When we praise Mary, we acknowledge the power and majesty of God who created such a wonderful being. And, since Mary exists only for God, whatever praise we give her is immediately given to God.

But I’m not a theologian, what do I know.

 

[jabelltulsa]

There is no basis in scripture for anyone to give Mary the kind of honor-veneration. Mary was a sinner like all of us that God used to bring Christ into the world. Even Jesus Himself never spoke of her in the way the catholic church does. What this honor-veneration to Mary does ultimately is to distract from the purity and devotion to Christ alone (2 Corinthians 11:3). It is He alone Who saves. He alone that makes the christian life possible. He alone that makes forgiveness possible.

I would no calling it using Mary to bring Christ into the world. I would call it an Honor he bestowed upon her.

My mother is a sinner and I Honor her, this adds to not subtracts from my devotion to Christ. it is because I love Christ that I Honor my mother, I am sure that you will agree that it is right for me to Honor her because it is written in Black and White in the Scripture to Honor thy father and thy mother.

I would not encourage anyone to honor Mary that could not do so in the manner intended, by this I mean that I would not encourage you to honor Mary if you did not do it with Christ in mind. We honor Mary to honor Christ.

I do not want to argue semantics with you, I do not want to convince you that you should Honor Mary in the way I choose to, I only wish to express my view on the subject and yes, I have used scripture to reinforce my beliefs. and no, the Bible does not have to spell things out for me to believe them.

I do not believe in the Letter of the law exclusively, I believe in the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law. (the Bible being the Law.) and I find in the spirit of the Bible many callings to Honor the Mother of Christ.

I realize Mary is merely a woman to you, Mary is blessed amongst women to me, and as such plays a special role in the redemption of man.

I Hope my response will lend to a better understanding of my position.

 

[jabelltulsa]

Simplistic I know, but, sometimes I imagine God as a father and famous artist who is showing Mary, his masterpiece, to a visitor, saying proudly, 'See what I have made for mySon! Isn’t she wonderful?"

And I imagine the visitor shrugging and walking away, saying 'Ehhn, not so much.

When we praise Mary, we acknowledge the power and majesty of God who created such a wonderful being. And, since Mary exists only for God, whatever praise we give her is immediately given to God.

But I’m not a theologian, what do I know.

This is a beautiful thought. It made me feel very humbled. Thank You. Jbells-Fiancee

 

[justasking4]

GandalfTheWhite;2524316]However the problem is that the Church is not a protestant denomination that reads the Bible and comes with it’s own interpretation of it. The Church uses the full deposit of faith, which isn’t only contained in the Scriptures and teaches us with an authority given to it by Christ.

Huh? Your church certainly does try to interpret the scriptures.Saying it uses the “deposit of faith” (whatever that is?) only moves your interpretation in another direction. In fact it creates more problems for you in that these other non-biblical understandings don’t jive with the scriptures.

And now that we are at it. Where does the Bible say that we must stick to Bible alone? It is not in the Scriptures and thus by your logic you’re only speculating. In fact you’re actually also speculating about what the Bible is because nowhere does it say that the books you’re using are inspired and you have yet to name a person or a body of persons who has the authority to decide such thing outside of the sole authority of the Bible which you proclaim.

So my point is: measure with the same ruler…

Since these threads are so specific i can’t really give you an adequate answer to your questions. What i will say is that most of the aspects of the marian doctrines can’t be supported by scripture.

 

[jabelltulsa]

Huh? Your church certainly does try to interpret the scriptures.Saying it uses the “deposit of faith” (whatever that is?) only moves your interpretation in another direction. In fact it creates more problems for you in that these other non-biblical understandings don’t jive with the scriptures.

First off, the Deposit of Faith is everything that Christ taught. This means the Holy Bible, and the parts that are not recorded (Sacred Tradition). There were many things that were not recorded in the Bible, that we must obey according to Matt 28:20. (Obey ALL that I have taught you)

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Bible alone is the authority. It says that the Church is; and this is where Marian teachings come from.

You can say “Find this in the Bible” all you want, but you will undoubtedly come to a situation in your life where the Bible is not clear on a particular point. At that point, you will interpret the Bible yourself. It is, therefore, unreasonable for you to accuse the Church of misinterpreting the Scriptures, since Christ didn’t leave you in charge - that is the Church’s job. The Church has defined many a Tradition (Marian Traditions included), because individuals or heretical groups have questioned the validity of a constantly held Tradition (Immaculate Conception, for instance).

If we choose not to trust in the Church for ALL Truth, then we would surely fall into Chaos and Anarchy in regards to the Articles of Faith (the things that make us Christian).

Praise be to God - He has promised to not let this happen, because the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His Church.

I will do my best to resign from this thread, as it has dropped way off topic (me being one of the offenders). The topic is not the biblical roots of the Marian Traditions, but rather the degree of honor given to her. The biblical roots are there for those who choose to see.

 

[justasking4]

jabelltulsa;2525464]First off, the Deposit of Faith is everything that Christ taught. This means the Holy Bible, and the parts that are not recorded (Sacred Tradition). There were many things that were not recorded in the Bible, that we must obey according to Matt 28:20. (Obey ALL that I have taught you)

Can you give me 2-3 that Christ taught that is not in the Scriptures?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Bible alone is the authority. It says that the Church is; and this is where Marian teachings come from.

Where does it say this about the church?

You can say “Find this in the Bible” all you want, but you will undoubtedly come to a situation in your life where the Bible is not clear on a particular point. At that point, you will interpret the Bible yourself. It is, therefore, unreasonable for you to accuse the Church of misinterpreting the Scriptures, since Christ didn’t leave you in charge - that is the Church’s job.

Are you claiming that only your church has the authority to interpret Scripture? If so, then where is this “interpretative work” of every verse of the Scripture so that i will know the infallible interpretation of it?

If you read scripture, do you not interpret it also?

The Church has defined many a Tradition (Marian Traditions included), because individuals or heretical groups have questioned the validity of a constantly held Tradition (Immaculate Conception, for instance).

Many of these Traditions have no grounding in the scriptures but are the opinions of men.

If we choose not to trust in the Church for ALL Truth, then we would surely fall into Chaos and Anarchy in regards to the Articles of Faith (the things that make us Christian).

Praise be to God - He has promised to not let this happen, because the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His Church.

Depends what you mean by “prevail”. There is a lot of evil in the history of the catholic church. Even up to this day.

I will do my best to resign from this thread, as it has dropped way off topic (me being one of the offenders). The topic is not the biblical roots of the Marian Traditions, but rather the degree of honor given to her. The biblical roots are there for those who choose to see.

There are no biblical roots for many of the claims your church makes about her.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

There are no biblical roots for many of the claims your church makes about her.

so? Tradition is not dependent on the BIBLE. God’s word is not JUST the Bible. Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium make up God’s word. Of course you will keep chasing your tail if you try to fit the Catholic square peg in the Sola Scriptura round hole. You don’t WANT to know anything about the Catholic Church you just want to run it down with Sola Scriptura. This is an impasse. It has become a waste of time.

Catholics do not have to have ‘biblical roots’ to qualify our beliefs about Mary, the Mother of God. BUT the Bible does support our beliefs and our beliefs do not contradict anything ‘biblical’—however YOU will never accept that from your anti-Catholic bias. So it is useless and degrading continuing this conversation. If you REALLY want to know and understand the ‘biblical roots’ for the Catholic view of Mary I am sure there is some apologetic article on this site, or you can Google it.

 

[justasking4]

Ravyn_Guiliani;2536100]so? Tradition is not dependent on the BIBLE. God’s word is not JUST the Bible. Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium make up God’s word.

What do you do when these sources conflict?

Of course you will keep chasing your tail if you try to fit the Catholic square peg in the Sola Scriptura round hole. You don’t WANT to know anything about the Catholic Church you just want to run it down with Sola Scriptura. This is an impasse. It has become a waste of time.

i can understand your frustration. Comparing what your church teaches about Mary with the scriptures is not an easy task to do.

Catholics do not have to have ‘biblical roots’ to qualify our beliefs about Mary, the Mother of God. BUT the Bible does support our beliefs and our beliefs do not contradict anything ‘biblical’—however YOU will never accept that from your anti-Catholic bias. So it is useless and degrading continuing this conversation. If you REALLY want to know and understand the ‘biblical roots’ for the Catholic view of Mary I am sure there is some apologetic article on this site, or you can Google it.

How well do you know the scriptures? Do you know specifically and clearly what the scriptures say about Mary?
The Mary of the catholic church is not the same Mary of the scriptures.

 

[justasking4]

jabelltulsa;2525464]First off, the Deposit of Faith is everything that Christ taught. This means the Holy Bible, and the parts that are not recorded (Sacred Tradition).

I have seen this claim many times about Sacred Tradition and those things not recorded in the scriptures. The problem is that if its not in the scriptures, its not inspired-inerrant.

There were many things that were not recorded in the Bible, that we must obey according to Matt 28:20. (Obey ALL that I have taught you)

Those things not in the scriptures are not binding though. They do not carry apostolic authority.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Bible alone is the authority. It says that the Church is;

It is true there are other authorties but since the scriptures alone are inspired-inerrant these authorities are under the authority of the scriptures.

and this is where Marian teachings come from.

Keep in mind that most of these if not all of them are not grounded in the scriptures.

You can say “Find this in the Bible” all you want, but you will undoubtedly come to a situation in your life where the Bible is not clear on a particular point. At that point, you will interpret the Bible yourself.

We all have to interpret everything we read. It is true that some things are unclear. However so much is.

It is, therefore, unreasonable for you to accuse the Church of misinterpreting the Scriptures, since Christ didn’t leave you in charge - that is the Church’s job.

Are you aware that your church has never infallibly interpreted the scriptures?

The Church has defined many a Tradition (Marian Traditions included), because individuals or heretical groups have questioned the validity of a constantly held Tradition (Immaculate Conception, for instance).

And well they should question. The scriptures warn of false teachers in the church who will decieve many. That is why you should hold your church accountable to what the scriptures teach. When you study the marian doctrines in light of the scriptures you will find that the support is not there.

If we choose not to trust in the Church for ALL Truth, then we would surely fall into Chaos and Anarchy in regards to the Articles of Faith (the things that make us Christian).

This is not true. What you must do is be on guard against false teachers in your own church.

Praise be to God - He has promised to not let this happen, because the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His Church.

The scriptures do warn of false teachers in the church itself. There was no promise given by Christ that this would not happen.

I will do my best to resign from this thread, as it has dropped way off topic (me being one of the offenders). The topic is not the biblical roots of the Marian Traditions, but rather the degree of honor given to her. The biblical roots are there for those who choose to see.

Thats the issue. There are no biblical roots for these marian doctrines.

 

[guanophore]

I have seen this claim many times about Sacred Tradition and those things not recorded in the scriptures. The problem is that if its not in the scriptures, its not inspired-inerrant.

Why are you trying to use CAF as a venue to pander your Sola Scriptura views, ja4? Why don’t you start up your own forum, or blog, instead of bringing it here? Are you hoping to find Catholics who are weak or uneducated in their faith that you can pull into your way of thinking?

Those things not in the scriptures are not binding though. They do not carry apostolic authority.

Since you believe this, why are you on a Catholic forum? You realize that the Catholic Church teaches opposite. Do you believe that you can refute this doctrine here and pursuade CAtholics to reject the authority of the Church?

It is true there are other authorties but since the scriptures alone are inspired-inerrant these authorities are under the authority of the scriptures.

This is very interesting, but belongs on another thread. I would start one for it, but by this time I recognize that you are not here to learn about Catholicism. You have already made up your mind about the Catholic faith.

Are you aware that your church has never infallibly interpreted the scriptures?

This is a strawman, and not related to the topic.

And well they should question. The scriptures warn of false teachers in the church who will decieve many. That is why you should hold your church accountable to what the scriptures teach. When you study the marian doctrines in light of the scriptures you will find that the support is not there.

What you are saying here, ja4, it seems to me, is that Catholics should question the Teaching Authority of the Church appointed by Christ. We should do this because you believe “false teachers will deceive many” and you believe this is going on right now in the Catholic church. You believe this specifically with regard to the doctrines about Mary, which you say are based on the “speculations of men” rather than on divine revelation.

This is not true. What you must do is be on guard against false teachers in your own church.

Basically what this sentence says is that you are coming in here to CAF to counsel, guide, and direct the Catholics here to question their leadership.

The scriptures do warn of false teachers in the church itself. There was no promise given by Christ that this would not happen.

No promise to the persons who refuse to be in union with the successor of Peter.

Thats the issue. There are no biblical roots for these marian doctrines.

It is an issue for you, ja4 because you have rejected the Sacred Traditions. In fact, you seem to be convinced they do not exist.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

Since this question is no longer relevant to the Spirituality board and has become a discussion on Scripture and authority, this thread is now closed.

Please take any further conversation to the appropriate board. Thank you.