Please keep this in mind. I am not disputing that the Seder meal itself is symbolic of their passing from slavery.
That’s good to know. I was beginning to think you were taking it beyond “ignoring the context” to a place of willful ignorance.
However, where your reasoning falls very much short is when you tried to equate Jesus reference of His Body to the symbolism of the Matzo itself. How many times have you replied since I questioned that? Yet to date you have not been able to establish the kind of link you are hoping to make.
The Matzo symbolizes a lot of different things at different points throughout the meal, but its primary focus is on the redemption of God’s chosen people and the ways in which they were rescued from bondage. The takeaway from the Last Supper is that Jesus’ flesh is the means by which all people- Jew and Gentile- can be redeemed and rescued from bondage to sin and restored to a right relationship with God.
I’m not sure why you emphasized
Matzo itself. I hope that answered the question, but I suspect it did not.
Then you did the same with the 3rd Cup. I asked you before, where in Judaic teaching has wine been equated with blood? Where in Judaic teaching, has the blood that was dashed on the door posts been equated with the wine that they drink at the Seder?
I think you’re coming at this with some ill-thought-out preconceptions of what I need in order to make the kinds of connections I’m making. Here’s the deal.
The wine is symbolic. I’m glad you can stop arguing with me about that. This symbolism is primarily linked to the Exodus from Egypt, as is the entire Seder. Its main focus is on the redemptions promised by God in Exodus 6:6-7. Take you out, deliver you, redeem you, acquire you as a nation. The obvious link is seen when you understand that Jesus is using this well-established symbolism in order to say something about His (literal) blood (the stuff that was shed on the Cross). It’s the means by which people are redeemed, delivered from bondage, acquired as children of God, and so forth.
Earlier on, you actually did ask a good question about the New Covenant (or Testament) in Jesus’ blood and how that could be linked to anything in the Seder. It took some time, but I did track something down for that. I think you were looking at the OC as if it exclusively applies to Mount Sinai and not to the Exodus from Egypt, but I knew there was an obvious covenantal connection to be made with the original night of Passover. I found it in Jeremiah 31:31-33, and this is referenced in Hebrews 10 as well.
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
So if you’re still wondering what the New Covenant thing was about, there is no connection to Sinai. Instead, it’s a connection to the covenant that God made with the “fathers” of Jesus and His disciples on the day when He took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. This New Covenant that Jesus speaks of is the one that was prophesied in Jeremiah, specifically in relation to the covenant that God made with Israel on the day He led them out of Egypt.
The light analogy was given because we say that the Eucharist is indeed His Body and Blood ex vi verborum - by the power of His Words. It will remain just bread and wine were it not for His say so.
Nice explanation. Good job with the Latin.
But I DO know about it. And it is not saying what you claim it is saying. Otherwise, after so many posts you would have addressed my very specific questions by now.
Oh, you know about it, do you? Well, could you demonstrate some knowledge at your earliest possible convenience? As much as I appreciate the Socratic method, it would be nice if you could show me something that’s not exclusive to the art of ball-breaking. A little goes a long way, and sometimes I’m concerned that you don’t know when enough is enough.
Well based on the links you provided it is apparent that you did make some stuff up - in particular the symbolism of the bread and wine.
The links took you to some of the most basic material out there, and the goal was to demonstrate that a Passover Seder is a symbolic meal with lots of symbols. I feel like that goal was largely accomplished, because you acknowledged this obvious/undeniable/empirical fact for the first time in your most recent post that was directed at me.
So here’s my question again: How is the Matzo symbolic of Christ’s Body (when He said this is my body) and how is the wine symbolic of His Blood?
The Matzo and the Cup already symbolized some really important things. In that regard, they were like giant arrows pointing to the things they symbolize. What Jesus did was not an act of transforming arrows into vessels of grace- rather, he indicated that the things they pointed to are properly equated with Him.
What is the particular symbolism of the Matzo? You gave a very lame comment regarding leaven and sinlessness which I have already rebutted.
It wasn’t lame, and really, you call that a rebuttal? Tell you what, you say you know all about this. Since I’ve already answered this question in detail (which you have evidently ignored), why don’t you give it a shot. What is the particular symbolism of the Matzo and the Cup?
. It’s okay, you may take your time.
if you have come across any other definitions describing today’s Lutherans position on the True presence?
