Literal or Symbolic?...

[JonNC]

=Gabriel of 12;8414048]But Christ does elaborate emphatically taking the bread “This is my body”. Jesus never states let this be God’s will to do “with the wine”. If Luther’s disposition is what you reveal it to be “let it be with the wine as God wills”? For Luther being a biblical Augustinian theologian comes across as a lose canon in regards to the Eucharist here.

I agree in a sacramental sense. He is emphatic - “this is my body”. There is no dispute between us on this. Luther’s comment about the wine is a response to Transubstantiation, and his statement that it wasn’t that big of a deal to him. It is his blood, and he is happy to leave the substance of the wine to God’s will.

If Luther is referencing the blood in his “let it be” and places the blood “with the wine,” “as God wills”? I can see very confusing drawn conclusions by both Lutheran camps in pro-Consubstantiation and anti-Consubstantiation.

I don’t see his comment that way, but ok.

I agree with you wholeheartedly here Jon; And this has always been the practice in the Catholic Church up until the reformation period and man developed intellectually in science and abused “free will”. It is here when the teachings of Christ come under attack again from secular science, which began to try and disprove the real presence and Christianity as myth and superstitous, that many were falling for the new sciences.

The Catholic Church and the Popes did what Jesus taught them to do through the apostles. When Jesus disproved His enemies by using His own enemies words and thinking. That the Church defending the Real Presence on the same footing with the scientific Intellectuals and silenced them with “Transubstantiation”.

This definition is for those atheist who need help to begin a faith in Christ. For those in the body of Christ “This is my body, This is my blood” has sufficed all RP believers since the last supper unchanged in the Catholic Church.

And if this is the intent of Transub, I don’t see aproblem here with it.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Gabriel of 12;8414050]cont;’

“Transubstantiation” is for those who scientifically need an answer to begin a faith in Jesus Christ and this term helps removes any doubt from those seeking “Truth” from the flesh into the mysteries.

Those who oppose trans. stand in direct defeat against science which can disprove any belief in a Real Presence in the Eucharist other than Transubstantiation, is just a man made myth and superstitious.

Ok on the first part. On the second I’m not sure about this. There are those who will disrespect the sacrament by stealing it away for scientific testing to “prove” it is mere bread and wine.

The Orthodox did not defend this RP teaching when it came under attack partly because they are ruled over by these same secular “anti-christ” powers, thus Orthodox maintain to Mystery which is the same Sacrament (mystery) terminology used in the West, Lutheran’s did not come to the RP defense when the secular world attacked the RP.

Certainly the size and visability of the CC lends to its ability to defend as you say. I promise you there is strong defense of it in Lutheranism.

Had not the Popes defended the RP against the evil powers and principalities in science, these gates of hell would of prevailed the Church’s faith in the RP.

Not a chance, Gabe. Let me tell you, even with the pressure brought to bare against the Lutherans by the Swiss, we held firm in the RP. I can’t see Rome doing less. And in both cases we see the power of the Spirit.

I as a Catholic never believe that Jesus body and blood are bread and wine. What I as a Catholic believe is that the “substance of bread and wine” are changed into the body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

How? by Transubstantiation, at the Word of God, the substance of bread and wine have changed into the body, blood of Jesus Christ, yet the accidents of bread and wine remain these to my flesh (senses) which availeth nothing, but to my soul, when Christ body, blood soul and divinity “cosumes” me, through my eating His body, and drinking His blood, It is here “That the Spirit gives Life”, as Jesus promises "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood will have eternal life.

Amen

Thanks for the clarification.

Jon

 

[Radical]

Before I post a reply, I would like to ask you to be more specific here, please. Not according to you and me, but according to Augustine in this context, what sacrament is the visible celebration of the cross?

I’ll wait for your response then reply accordingly.

Thank you.

Wouldn’t the answer be the same for all three of us? The Lord’s Supper is the visible celebration of what Christ achieved with his body for us on the cross. That is how I would answer for Augustine and me.

 

[lyrikal]

Wouldn’t the answer be the same for all three of us? The Lord’s Supper is the visible celebration of what Christ achieved with his body for us on the cross. That is how I would answer for Augustine and me.

Thank you.

 

[Radical]

Radical I never got an answer from david ruiz and am interested your practice also.

Does your church have an altar to which your clergy distributes actual “fermented wine”, leavened or unleavened bread as the bible reveals “To do this in memory of me”, nothing else****?Or does your clergy distribute something other than “wine and bread” to your children and adults?

I attend at 3 different Churches presently. For the bread, one uses crackers, one “Catholic” wafers and the other uses regular bread with yeast. For the wine, two use grape juice and one uses wine (but offers grape juice for those concerned about alcohol).

I find it interesting to learn from you and non-catholics by which “symbols” does your church use to symbolize the body and blood of Jesus?

I prefer bread broken in front of the congregation from a single loaf (leavened/unleavened does not matter), and red wine. Ideally, it would be at a full meal and I do not recognize the need to have anyone in particular officiate.

Do you follow the bible prescriptions nothing else?

sadly they have abandoned the symbolism of one loaf…hard to do in a large congregation (but not impossible)…the symbolism of grapes coming together to make wine (or juice) isn’t stressed and the full meal aspect is lost as well.

Can you relate here, to what exactly your church uses for bread and wine to symbolize Jesus body and blood, If your church does not use real wine and real unleavened bread?

it could be a lot better.

If you believe “nothing else” but bread and wine are on the altar and no RP of Jesus body and blood? How is it that you can justify giving wine to all of your community, or are your children deprived of the wine that symbolizes Jesus?

I don’t follow.

Do you think Augustine used real wine and unleavened bread as Catholics do today, or did Augustine use for symbols your church uses?

IIRC Augustine’s congregation used wine mixed with water and a single loaf of actual bread (unleavened I believe)…I wouldn’t call the wafer that I have often seen in Catholic churches “bread” and IMHO Augustine would have been extremely vexed by something other than a single loaf.

Peace be with you

and to you

 

[david_ruiz]

Sorry. I came to the party late.

Could you give a post in which “anything figurative” as it pertains to the Eucharist was being “ridiculed” by a knowledgeable Catholic?

Thread #242, 248, 253 and 325 . The authors are knowledgeable Catholics , sharing 11, 000 threads. You would be only the third Catholic I have seen admit that there are symbols (bread and wine) at the Eucharist celebration (howbeit before consecration), if that is what you implied .

 

[PRmerger]

Thread #242, 248, 253 and 325 . The authors are knowledgeable Catholics , sharing 11, 000 threads.

Here are the posts to which you refer:

Jews eat symbolic lambs for passover right?

Yes, they must have been pretzels shaped into a lamb.

Do protestants believe in a real life Jesus Christ or is He just symbolic? Were the apostles real live people or symbolic?

What is unfruitful david is; that you forget the Catholic Christians who wrote the Didache believed in the Eucharist Real presence of Jesus body and blood as we Catholic do today. The Didache reveals a moral instruction and Catholic discipline practices.

What are your doing? applying your symbolic presence of Jesus in bread and wine to the Mass the Didache reveals is very unfruitful. What does Transubstantiation has to do with the Didache disciplines? From your false assumptions reveals to me; that you are reading (forcing) your 20th century theology into these ancient Catholic documents including the ECF’s who are all Catholic and practiced the Mass as Catholics do today unchanged in the Real presence of Jesus in His Eucharist.

**These are your own words david ruiz **" **Jesus is divine and He enters and sups with us **, with the inner man ,the regenerated spirit." This is all new to me, I know of no teaching biblical or other that “Jesus sups with us”.

Pleace allow me to propose a suggestion to you david? First of all you do not need to inform me how I practice my Catholic faith, or what My Catholic faith teaches, let me share my faith with you, so that you can share your faith with me. Having this understanding then, it will improve our communications from misunderstandings.

Secondly david; I find your position misleading when you fail at using quotes from bonified Catholic Saints from Antiquity (ECF’s) and Catholic documents to support your symbolic presence or figurative presence of Jesus in the bread and wine. By misinterpreting their writings including the Great Catholic “Bishop of Hippo” St.Augustine.

You see david, you are only reading letters on a page and trying to come away from practicing Catholic saints to support your “new” symbolic bread and wine to help you remember Jesus died on the cross. Why don’t you look into these great Saints Lives on how they practiced their Catholic Faith along with their many contemporaries who were also Popes and canonized Catholic Saints, who believed as St.Augustine in the real presence of Jesus body and blood in His Eucharist.

Do you think St.Augustine or any other Catholic Saint ECF would of ever reached Sainthood canonization in the Catholic church all these centuries? if they held to a new protestant view of a symbolic bread and wine to represent the passion, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus and denied the Real presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity in His Eucharist? You see david your findings from a letter on a page is your own not the Catholic Saints who wrote them.

I have asked you questions about your position and you responded to me on how I practice my Catholicism and positions of my Catholic Church from your own opinion which has taken us off topic from one another or maybe I was not clear in my questions?

You claim to hold to a “spiritual = symbolic” understanding of bread and wine to only be symbols to help you remember what Jesus did for our salvation, is this correct? If it is not? please correct your position, because thus far you revealed to me that “Jesus sups with you”, Jesus body and blood are never present to you only “figuratively” in the bread and wine.

Question? Do you really drink (real) fermented wine and eat bread at your church services? If you do drink real wine at your church services and obey Jesus words in the bible “to eat this bread and drink this cup” (wine) to remember Jesus last supper? or crucifixion? Does your Church or pastor follow the bible and give this symblic bread and fermented wine to all children present as well as adults?

Can you reveal what your Church consumes in its communion services be it wine, grape juice, apple juice, water along with crackers, leaven bread or unleavened bread? Which do you partake of?

Thirdly david, and I repeat here? If you partake of Jesus spiritually? How is it that you can separate Jesus body and blood from His Spirit? I have a difficult time understanding your theology here, during your partaking of the bread and drink when you are giving thanks and at the same time partaking of Jesus spiritually? Can you give any body in Christianity that holds to your position how you believe? Does your source date back before protestantism began?

Thanks for your time and sharing here

None of them denies the fact that there are symbolic elements to the Eucharist.

The humor posted in the above comments is aimed not at the fact that there is a figurative aspect to the Eucharistic Meal, but that you are so adamantine that it is ONLY figurative.

 

[PRmerger]

You would be only the third Catholic I have seen admit that there are symbols (bread and wine) at the Eucharist celebration (howbeit before consecration), if that is what you implied .

Now, this is a curious comment indeed.

For were you not in a conversation only a few weeks ago with this poster, who said:

No, what me, and I think I can speak for Nicea as well, will always **consider absurd is the opinion that insist that the figurative and literal are mutually exclusive **and any opinion that reduces the figurative/spiritual to the merely symbolic.

We hold to the definition of the term “sacrament”, which is at the same time a sign AND also is that reality which it signifies.

So it seems that you are indeed aware that Catholics believe in both the figurative *and *spiritual realities of the Eucharist!

 

[david_ruiz]

Where did I say that the bread equates to the lamb?

What we say is Jesus is both bread and lamb. Surely you could not have missed that fact from reading the Scriptures.

“Where in Judaic teaching, has the blood that was dashed on the door posts been equated with the wine that they drink at the Seder?” was your # 320 question.
From my understanding of your thread, you see no connection in Passover symbolism to the Lord’s Supper symbolism.You are right that the wine did not equate with OT blood, as the bread did not equate with the OT lamb.The bread was symbolic of purity as the ideal for Israel (as the lamb is unblemished, so should Israel be -never fulfilled till Christ ). Not sure about the wine symbolism in OT. The lamb and it’s blood are just that, the sacrifice ( but celebrated in remembrance of original exodus, and looking forward to the Lamb of God-Calvary). The OT had at least 4 elements : lamb, blood, wine, and bread,with definite literalness(lamb,blood) and symbolism(bread for sure). The Last Supper had all 4; Lamb, Blood, wine and bread. Jesus chose bread/wine to equate to His purity, and His flesh/blood and death. The Lamb and Blood were literal, as in OT, but bread remains symbolic, and now wine also. The symbolism is needed because of no more lamb/blood being sacrificed. OT had 4 literal elements. NT has 2 elements remembering 2 literal elements : His shed blood and body. He chose bread and not lamb to represent His flesh . Lamb would have suggested a continual shedding, while unleavened bread represented “rest”, that the “purity” to be attained, has been fulfilled, something Israel strived for but did not attain. Hence, we celebrate our “rest” and future glorification ( 2nd coming)… Does not symbolic elements, remembering Him, make His second coming more necessary, whereas CC real presence has Him returned or present already ? I would think it is less of a remembrance when the consecration brings Him right there. It’s like if my wife were deceased, I could say in spirit she is with me and I remember her, but if she resurrected and came thru the door, I would no longer “remember” her as just a moment before (of course if she laid down her life for me, I would always remember that ). …My whole point is if you use unleavened bread as the symbol for the Lamb (which it was not in OT), you can use wine for His blood (which it was not in OT ). There was symbolism in OT Passover (bread), and I believe there is symbolism in NT (bread).

 

[david_ruiz]

Now, this is a curious comment indeed.

For were you not in a conversation only a few weeks ago with this poster, who said:

So it seems that you are indeed aware that Catholics believe in both the figurative *and *spiritual realities of the Eucharist!

Yes, that is what I said , three Catholics have said that, to the best of my recollection. He is the third. How is that curious ?

 

[benedictus2]

Thank you.

NIcely done. Game set and match.

 

[benedictus2]

I attend at 3 different Churches presently.

At 3 different churches. Isn’t that like having 3 girl friends or 3 wives at the same time

 

[benedictus2]

Thank-you, but where were you when anything figurative, I mean anything, was being ridiculed ? Has it not been “either /or” from your fellows, they were starting to sound like “protestants”, you know, black and white, instead of your rainbow of “both/and”.

Sorry. I came to the party late.

Could you give a post in which “anything figurative” as it pertains to the Eucharist was being “ridiculed” by a knowledgeable Catholic?

Thread #242, 248, 253 and 325 . The authors are knowledgeable Catholics , sharing 11, 000 threads. You would be only the third Catholic I have seen admit that there are symbols (bread and wine) at the Eucharist celebration (howbeit before consecration), if that is what you implied .

Here are the posts to which you refer:

None of them denies the fact that there are symbolic elements to the Eucharist.

The humor posted in the above comments is aimed not at the fact that there is a figurative aspect to the Eucharistic Meal, but that you are so adamantine that it is ONLY figurative.

I think what needs to be clarified here is what PR is referring to when she uses the term symbolic and what you, David, refer to when you use the term symbolic.

You are saying that the bread and wine are only symbolically the Body and Blood of Christ. I doubt that PR agrees with you there.

There are symbolisms in the Eucharist but that part - it is not symbolic.

 

[benedictus2]

Seriously…Don’t over analyze it…or overthink it. God and all that included therein is not a legalistic concept. Just do what you feel convicted by Him to do. By Him being the operative phrase…

God and all he had to tell us is not to meant to be broken down into metaphors and allegories as if it were poetry…it is the Holy word of God. Just take it as YOU feel it should be interpreted and stop looking for approval.

In effect you are saying that you are Pope and magisterium and everyone should be one’s Pope and magisterium. Ludicrous.

 

[benedictus2]

Leaving only the accidents, that which our senses observe/ recognize.

That’s right. For all our scientific brilliance we still can’t explain how the bread is Christ. Even if you put it through the microscope it will still exhibit the properties of flour and water. Yet, we say that it is no longer bread.

It is a very natural thing to think : How? How can it be? But even with transub we still do not answer that question. That is why so far, that is the only explanation that makes sense even though it still leaves far too much a mystery (as God has willed).

Not stupid, just a misstatement. We both knew what you meant. I only mention it so you could clarify for the lurkers.

Peace, Cory.

Jon

It was ill-thought but thank you for being kind

Peace and Joy, Jon.

 

[Radical]

At 3 different churches. Isn’t that like having 3 girl friends or 3 wives at the same time

no, it is like meeting your girl friend or wife at three different restaurants for a meal.

 

[david_ruiz]

At 3 different churches. Isn’t that like having 3 girl friends or 3 wives at the same time

VARIETY IS THE SPICE OF LIFE, AND WE HAVE 30,000 VARIETIES, WITH MANY NEW AND IMPROVED ON THE HORIZON. Thanks for a good laugh on afternoon break.

 

[david_ruiz]

Radical I never got an answer from david ruiz and am interested your practice also.

Does your church have an altar to which your clergy distributes actual “fermented wine”, leavened or unleavened bread as the bible reveals “To do this in memory of me”, nothing else****?Or does your clergy distribute something other than “wine and bread” to your children and adults?

I find it interesting to learn from you and non-catholics by which “symbols” does your church use to symbolize the body and blood of Jesus?

Do you follow the bible prescriptions nothing else? Can you relate here, to what exactly your church uses for bread and wine to symbolize Jesus body and blood, If your church does not use real wine and real unleavened bread?

If you believe “nothing else” but bread and wine are on the altar and no RP of Jesus body and blood? How is it that you can justify giving wine to all of your community, or are your children deprived of the wine that symbolizes Jesus?

Do you think Augustine used real wine and unleavened bread as Catholics do today, or did Augustine use for symbols your church uses?

Peace be with you

We have "table’ at front -do broken up “matzo” or crackers type thing and grape juice. Tell me, I have heard that when we read “wine” in english it may refer to fermented AND unfermented. Some even say the wine suggetsed for drinking in NT is unfermented. What have you heard ?

 

[Nicea325]

no, it is like meeting your girl friend or wife at three different restaurants for a meal.

And still does not change the fact all three are different restaurants.

 

[Nicea325]

VARIETY IS THE SPICE OF LIFE, AND WE HAVE 30,000 VARIETIES, WITH MANY NEW AND IMPROVED ON THE HORIZON. Thanks for a good laugh on afternoon break.

Oh yeah! What an honor to brag about thousands of varities and with more divisions on the horizon. :ehh: