Literal or Symbolic?...

[david_ruiz]

'zactly! They left Jesus because they understood him to be speaking something that was “difficult”.

So, too, do Protestants, as they reject Jesus’ words as being distasteful, so they decide to edit Jesus’ words to something more palatable.

There is no question that those who left understood him to be speaking literally.

Round and round we go .The unbelievers took it literally .You are a believer and take it literally, thru transubstantiation,yet your initial interpretation to eat with “teeth and bellies” is like the unbelievers. I too am a believer,and take it totally different than the unbelievers and more like the apostles via figurative speech ,that we eat him and his words “spiritually”. To say that something you eat is “spiritual” seems quite carnal in the John 6 discourse setting. I do not believe Jesus left the apostles in a “mystery”, even thru the last Supper ,and indeed with final articulation taking 1200 years.I believe the apostles took it figuratively in john 6 ,and understood more fully at the last supper.It is an inescapable fact that RP is a close kin to the “many” unbelievers that left.You simply supplied the “how” to still literally eat Him .The believers ,the 12 , remained without any idea of your literal "how’ , but certainly with the figurative “how”, they were spiritually batting 1000 with, “You have the words of eternal life ,and are the Son of God”.

 

[david_ruiz]

When does your church offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving? And how is this different from a prayer of thanksgiving?

Not sure,is there a Greek word for sacrificial thanksgiving ,or prayerful thanksgiving ?

 

[david_ruiz]

How is what I said figurative?

Not quite. Because the disciples understood that He didn’t mean it figuratively.

In John 6, the figurative meaning of eating one’s flesh and drinking one’s blood is to attack someone particularly with calumny.

So if you read it figuratively, you make Jesus sound stupid.

Essentially a figurative reading would translate this way: Jesus said: if you attack me and heap calumnies on me you will have eternal life.

Actually ,I have been thinking a lot of your point .Can you tell me how you garnered this “tidbit” of info. I am finding it quite fascinating. Calumny is to attack one’s reputation with falsehoods .As a matter of fact, could an ultimate calumny lead to getting hung on a tree ? Do you and I not have eternal life in Christ because indeed He was attacked and was calumnified ? I have often said ,John 6 is about foretelling of his death ,and ascension,that he would not sit on the Davidic throne ,yet.(and not to follow Him for that reason -overthrow Romans etc ). Did not Jesus say in john 6 that he knew who would betray him while he said, " Gnaw on Me" (heap calumnies)? Was Judas (and Israel) “saved” by this ? Was Jesus being sarcastic ? Was he mad ? (remember he turned to the apostles and said, "Will you leave also ? "Sorry, he was mad ,disappointed. And the apostles said ,“We won’t heap calumnies on you , for you are true and have the words of eternal life,and know who you really are ,the Messiah”. …You have further convinced me of the rightness of the unliteral interpretation . But I would gladly listen to any sharpening ,for you are iron.Thank-you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

david ruiz;8373747]This is Paul talking of proper conduct for the remebrance ,thanksgiving (eucharist).It does not talk of the “how” .I look at Paul’s words and see figurative , and you look at them as RP.

.

Maybe you need to re-read St.Paul again, because he places a “Curse” on those who do not discern the (True presence) “body of Christ” and the “cup of blessing” which contained the “blood of Christ”.

Why would St.Paul place a curse on a symbolic Jesus? Sorry your new interpretation contradicts St.Paul’s teaching when he places a curse on those who do not discern the true presence of the body and blood of Christ during the Sacred Tradition celebration of the Mass he just handed down to the Corinthian Church.

1Cor.11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 28A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment* on himself. **30That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

A symbolic or figurative Jesus would not require a “Curse of judgement” upon those who do not discern the body and blood of Jesus, when practicing the “Rite” St.Paul just handed down to the Corinthian Church in the Eucharist celebration.

I finally see your point.You see our “mere” symbol, of his death as dead ,because we don’t have the miracle of transubstantation, the "sign " of his aliveness in the remembrance. Do you need a sign ? In the john 6 discourse ,you saw nobody eat his flesh .You are like those that left ,and need to know the “how’ .Trans. fills that need .Well I do see an eating of his flesh in john 6 and hence see the” how " without RP. Again, Peter literally /spiritually ate the words of Jesus. Just because Jesus does not miraculously inter-react with our symbols of bread and wine, does not mean He is not bursting with life/meat in our bosoms as we “remember”.

Why would Peter “eat the words of Jesus” when Jesus was present to him? It’s when Jesus resurrects and ascends into heaven, that Peter now has to participate in the body and blood of Christ by discerning them and then obeying Christ by consuming Jesus body and blood in His Eucharist every time they devoted themselves in the prayers of the apostles and breaking of bread, is how His disciples came to know him after the resurrection.

Let me help your summary here; John 6 is the bread of life discourse, Jesus is not celebrating the Mass or instituting the Eucharist yet as He does at the Last supper.

You, david chose to follow men to believe Jesus body and blood are never Truly present to you or your community of believers because you refuse to believe Jesus commands to eat His “True body and True blood” peace be with you…

Your new figurative Mans new gospel interpretation of a symbolic Jesus, pretends not to hear Jesus Words and commands when Jesus states clearly and never in figurative language, but reveals His Words as Himself Truly presence in sacramental “spiritual realities described in spiritual terms,” not figurative terms;

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. **55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. **

We as Catholics rather chose to follow Jesus and obey God in obedience to Jesus Commands and the sacred Traditions handed down by the apostles such as St.Paul, we discern the True body and blood of Jesus in His Eucharist. Not in a literal carnal canabalistic misunderstanding as the Jews who left Jesus did, but in a Truly eternal sacrificial presence of His body, blood, soul and divinity to those who believe.

cont’

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont’

david ruiz; You do not need a sacrament to partake in His divinity. Peter partook of His divinity without any sacrament .Peter was one with the Father when he he confessed Jesus to be His Son. It was not Peter’s flesh , for it avails nothing. When you are regenerated you have His fullness in you ,and you are his tabernacle (the Didache). Do you not have Him in your purified, regenerated heart before communion ?..

Peter did not need the sacrament yet, because the Spirit had not yet come upon Him and the apostles, for one reason only Jesus was physically present to Peter and the apostles.

Was it not Peter who proclaimed to the first century Jews who crucifed Jesus that; in order to be saved “you must repent and be baptised (regenerated) into Christ?” Jesus places a condition in order to enter the kingdom of God via His sacrament of “baptism which saves you now.” John 3:3-5

Wow, your the first non-catholic Christian to admit in partaking of His divinity, most protestants don’t know how to acknowledge this revelation from scripture, and the ones that do, have to invent or self interpret what “partakers of His divinity” means. “Unless you eat my body, drink my blood you have no life in you.”

I am amazed how you believe that you can partake of “His divinity” by a symbolic gesture or figurative understanding? If you have no “True presence of His divinity” then you have no participation in His divinity.

david you separate Jesus body and blood from His divinity (Spirit), by just professing a belief in a symbolic spiritual way of His presence which is not revealed in scripture. How can you separate God from the Son who resurrected from the dead with his body, blood soul and divinity intact from the Holy Spirit?

If you have Jesus True presence body, blood soul and divinity, from His blessed Sacrament, then we are partakers of His divinity. Yet in all 7 sacraments the True presence of Jesus is present, though in Sacraments of Sacraments Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity are Truly present, when we become partakers of His divinity.

I think you rushed this I understand you to mean she doesn’t have to do any rite ,save that which is commanded .And I tell you the CC has made more of them than is necessary ,creating a barrier to apprehending him( you need consecration ,you need a priest .you place the Lord behind a veil, in a tabernacle made with hands.
If I were you I’d see RP here also .I do not .The key is ,as in john 6 ,is “knowledge of him” vs 2,3, not a ritual to gain divinity or knowledge of him.

The more you try and reason yourself away from the Apostolic Catholic Church, the more watered down your interpretations become. Let’s deal with this “veil or tabernacle” complex you have about the Eucharist.

The Early Church Fathers all taught discernment of the True presence of Jesus in His Eucharist. The purpose of the tabernacle, was for the deacons to take the precious body and blood to the sick and those imprisoned after Mass, this ancient practice is still practiced in the Catholic Church today unchanged. You have a distorted view of Catholicism from one who claims to have been a catholic?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

david ruiz;8373930]Vs 2-“desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow ,if so be ye have tasted the Lord is good” Sorry ,the primary context is milk ,not flesh ,not RP, but his Word.His Word is effectual (says nothing here of an effectual sacrament) .His word is effectual.

Peter and both Paul are teaching the difference of immature “on the milk” and mature “those who can eat meat” Christians. What I call your attention to is Peter’s comment for those who have tasted the Lord is good, he states “Come to him”. How do you come to Jesus if you profess to not to believe in the True presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity in His Eucharist. For it is here when we Catholics “come to Him” after tasting the Lord is good.

How does one “Come to Him” if you don’t believe Jesus body, blood are never present before you?

1Peter 2:3b for you have tasted that the Lord is good.4Come to him, a living stone,

You just showed me scripture that showed a spiritual eating of milk and meat as to the word of God. Hence, the spiritual eating of his flesh has some biblical kin ,in this realm of figurative speech.

Scripture nor I did not reveal such a thing, you misinterpret both scripture and myself. The milk and meat deals with the maturity of Christians never symbolic or spiritual eating of meat and milk as the Word of God; Lord Have Mercy on Us…

 

[PRmerger]

When does your church offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving? And how is this different from a prayer of thanksgiving?

Not sure,is there a Greek word for sacrificial thanksgiving ,or prayerful thanksgiving ?

Ah. You’re “not sure”?

This is a trenchant point. You’ve posited that your church does indeed offer a “sacrifice of thanksgiving”, yet you’re not even sure what this is and how it differs from simply a prayer of thanksgiving.

I will give you the answer: the difference is that your thanksgiving in your church are prayers such as, “Thank you, God, for creation.” or “Thank you for healing my friend.”

These prayers, while wonderful, have nothing to do with Malachi 1:11.

However, during the Divine Liturgy, what is offered up is the Eucharist, a sacrifice of thanksgiving, the Once for All sacrifice of the Lamb of God, the Eternal Sacrifice of Calvary that is made present at the altar of God.

 

[david_ruiz]

Ah. You’re “not sure”?

This is a trenchant point. You’ve posited that your church does indeed offer a “sacrifice of thanksgiving”, yet you’re not even sure what this is and how it differs from simply a prayer of thanksgiving.

I will give you the answer: the difference is that your thanksgiving in your church are prayers such as, “Thank you, God, for creation.” or “Thank you for healing my friend.”

These prayers, while wonderful, have nothing to do with Malachi 1:11.

However, during the Divine Liturgy, what is offered up is the Eucharist, a sacrifice of thanksgiving, the Once for All sacrifice of the Lamb of God, the Eternal Sacrifice of Calvary that is made present at the altar of God.

Oh I am sure .Just wondering if you had any Greek up your sleeve to help illuminate .Otherwise , we will stick with what we know .Eucharist is a thanksgiving , more than a sacrifice . Having said that ,some have said it is a sacrifice of praise .The term sacrifice has several levels ,one of giving externally(elements) ,and one of giving internally ,that is of yourself .I learned this well by nunnery. To give of oneself for oblations to the Almighty for His Son,can be apart from offering oblations such as the elements. Hence our prayers, our “sacrifice” is one of thanksgiving, specifically as we “remember”,and commune His sacrifice for us…“Do not suppose that Isaiah or other prophets speak of sacrifices of blood or libations being presented at the altar of his second advent, but a true and spiritual praises and giving of thanks”. " The giving of thanks is the only preferred and well pleasing sacrifice to God" -#117 Justin Martyr .Barnabus talks against sacrifices and incense as old testament (Jewish). “come together to give thanks to God” (paraphrase of Ignatius-13 ?). On the Lord’s Day break bread and give thanks,…", Didache14:1 “To him, supposing they can give anything to Him who stands in need of nothing, same as those destitute of sense…” Mathetes(2). "The bread which Christ gave us to eat, in remembrance of His being made flesh for the sake of His believers, and the cup which He gave us to drink, in remembrance of His own blood, with giving thanks ". J. Martyr

 

[david_ruiz]

.

Maybe you need to re-read St.Paul again, because he places a “Curse” on those who do not discern the (True presence) “body of Christ” and the “cup of blessing” which contained the “blood of Christ”.

 

[david_ruiz]

cont’

Wow, your the first non-catholic Christian to admit in partaking of His divinity,

 

[PRmerger]

Oh I am sure .Just wondering if you had any Greek up your sleeve to help illuminate .

What’s been illuminated is that your church does not offer any sacrifices–of thanksgiving, of praise or otherwise.

And therefore does not fulfill Malachi 1:11

 

[kobe111]

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[PRmerger]

Yes,supplied by the Father.

Of course.

Yes, Lamb of God ,as from God. We offered Him back up on a tree. Really.

Indeed.

Who supplied the ram for Abraham ?

God.

Not sure what your point is here, david.

You mean The Incarnation did NOT walk on water ? Could I not also say the Incarnated One walked on water ?

Point taken.

I suppose a better example would be: Jesus and “hypostatic union” are not synonymous. That is, it would not be correct to say, “The Hypostatic Union walked on water.”

IOW: The Jesus is the Person, Hypsotatic Union is the process/explanation. Just like the Eucharist is the Person, transubstantiation is the process/explanation.

Why can’t you say the Eucharist or the Transubstantiated ?

See above.

Just not getting your point,** not sure** first century Christians would either.

Not sure again?



Thankfully, Catholics need not rely only on our own authority or our own research as to what the “first century Christians” would understand.

 

[david_ruiz]

What’s been illuminated is that your church does not offer any sacrifices–of thanksgiving, of praise or otherwise.

And therefore does not fulfill Malachi 1:11

It is the “otherwise” that is troublesome. Sister Techla and Sister Anna Gertrude would have trouble with you not recognizing a “sacrifice of praise”.Just because you refuse to believe in our sacrificial praise doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

 

[PRmerger]

It is the “otherwise” that is troublesome. Sister Techla and Sister Anna Gertrude would have trouble with you not recognizing a “sacrifice of praise”.Just because you refuse to believe in our sacrificial praise doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Okay.

Is your sacrifice of praise “pure”? And how do you know?

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a **pure offering: **for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

And is it offered at an altar? For if one reads the entirety of Malach 1 we know that this is a sacrificial gift that is being offered at an altar.

(BTW: It’s not that I don’t know what a sacrifice of praise is; it’s simply that our sacrifice of praise is clearly light years away from the One True Sacrifice offered, once for all, at Calvary.)

 

[david_ruiz]

Okay.

Is your sacrifice of praise “pure”? And how do you know?

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a **pure offering: **for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

And is it offered at an altar? For if one reads the entirety of Malach 1 we know that this is a sacrificial gift that is being offered at an altar.

(BTW: It’s not that I don’t know what a sacrifice of praise is; it’s simply that our sacrifice of praise is clearly light years away from the One True Sacrifice offered, once for all, at Calvary.)

Well,our thanksgiving is twofold : for The Pure One who offered Himself for us, and for washing of us ,making us One with Him .Hence we are pure enough to boldly go into the Holy of Holies. …We have a table ,an altar per say .However, I belive this transaction must first and foremost take place in the heart ,in the spiritual realm,then we give ouselves entirely to praise, our being not only containing the altar, but indeed, the whole temple of the Most High God. Our praise being a sweet fragrance as incense before Him .What a deal ! Alleluia !

 

[PRmerger]

Well,our thanksgiving is twofold : for The Pure One who offered Himself for us, and for washing of us ,making us One with Him .Hence we are pure enough to boldly go into the Holy of Holies. …

You church makes a “pure offering” at an altar, from east to west?

Forgive my skepticism, but I truly doubt that your sacrificial offerings fulfill that which was foretold in Malachi 1.

Suffice it to say, david, that if your church does, then it is doing what the Catholic Church does, and we are then in agreement!

I just hope this puts some thought into your heart, when you go to your next Sunday service: is this a sacrifice we are offering at our altar? Do I see Malachi 1 in my pastor’s offering at the altar?

or from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

We have a table ,an altar per say .

Well, as long as a sacrifice is being offered at this “table”, then that does make it an altar.

However, I think that if I asked your pastor, “Where’s the altar in your church?” he might correct me, “Daughter, we do not have an altar here, for we do not offer sacrifices and I am not a priest.”

However, I belive this transaction must first and foremost take place in the heart ,in the spiritual realm,then we give ouselves entirely to praise, our being not only containing the altar, but indeed, the whole temple of the Most High God. Our praise being a sweet fragrance as incense before Him .What a deal ! Alleluia !

Amen!

(BTW, david, just wondering why you sometimes put a space after your commas, and sometimes you don’t? And you also arbitrarily put spaces and exclude them from other punctuation marks. Why is that? It makes reading your posts a bit cumbersome. The normative way is to use a punctuation mark, and then follow it with a space. Except if you’re ending your entire post with a period. Then no space.)

 

[david_ruiz]

However, I think that if I asked your pastor, “Where’s the altar in your church?” he might correct me, “Daughter, we do not have an altar here, for we do not offer sacrifices and I am not a priest.”

 

[rturner76]

Uh oh…Call the Pope, I think you guys got this one wrong. It just hit me…When Jesus was on Earth, he took the bread, broke it and said "take, eat, this is my body, broken for you. And poured the wine and said Take, drink, this is my blood, shed for you for the forgiveness of sin. He passed around bread and wine. He didn’t hack off one of his limbs and pass it around. It was symbolic. See. Will somebody call the Pope and let him know, you got it all wrong. Gimme the number, I’ll call him!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Uh oh…Call the Pope, I think you guys got this one wrong. It just hit me…When Jesus was on Earth, he took the bread, broke it and said "take, eat, this is my body, broken for you. And poured the wine and said Take, drink, this is my blood, shed for you for the forgiveness of sin. He passed around bread and wine. He didn’t hack off one of his limbs and pass it around. It was symbolic. See. Will somebody call the Pope and let him know, you got it all wrong. Gimme the number, I’ll call him!

Jesus is God. God can be more than one place at the same time.

To quote St. Augustine:

“How this ‘And he was carried in his own hands’] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: ‘THIS IS MY BODY.’ FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS.” (Psalms 33:1:10)