Little Faith in Catholic Hierarchy

[HabemusFrancis]

Hey all…

I am writing about a sad situation I am in. That is, I as a rule do not trust the Catholic hierachy to do the right thing about all this sex abuse trouble, at least not without outside influence.

I am from Minneapolis Twin cities archdiocese, where our bishop did not act prudently enough to susped a priest before he molested two boys about two weeks ago

A popular priest professor at my alma mater (University of St. Thomas) has recently been suspended following a sexabuse lawsuit from a woman he “allegedly” abused as a 13 year old. Just today there was another lawsuit filed…

It just strikes me as incredible… That historically speaking so many bishops around the world behave in exactly the same inadequate matter and made the exact same “mistakes.”

It’s even more startling that after everything has been revealed, after everything that is known, some bishops still do everyhting possible to not do the right thing…

I know people criticize the “liberal media” and the “greedy contingency lawyers” but it is largely thanks to both of them that the full extant of this crisis is known…

People may call Jeff Anderson “greedy and opprotunistic.” I cannot speak as to the veracity of these claims. But I find it startling, that he continues to keep getting business and that the “Catholic sex Abuse Market” as it were, has not at all dried up in the last 5 years or so.

Some here may remember that in the 1990s, when this crisis was first beginning to be known, Many bishops kept saying how the media “exaggerrated” things and the church was being unfairly singled out, all the while being among the few people at that time who knew just how bad it really was

I know my next opinion is controversial, but I will say it anyway. I think Mandatory priestly celibacy should be done away with. I don’t believe the celibacy " made the priests abuse" but I do think many sexually dysfunctional people in the past saw the priesthood as a place to “hide out” and dismiss peoples suspicions as to why they did not yet have a girlfriend.

I also believe that if some of the priests/ bishops etc. had children of their own, their tolerance for priestly pedophilia would have been at least somewhat less than it historically has been… maybe more would have thought it to be the right thing to do to turn in an abusive “brother priest” to the police

It seems also, that since there was a priest shortage, some of the hierarchy were desperate to hold onto any priest, no matter his grave flaws.

I also think, not all, but some priests’ celibacy leads to an obsession with sex, which occupies their minds more than non celibate people. One priest at my parish years ago, kept saying “what a noble sacrifice it was” that in college he did not date, and has subsequently given up marital relations with a woman, in a manner similar to how an anorexic might boast about how they only eat two spinach salads per day and nothing else… It is an odd focus that many people just don’t obsess over in the same way.

Anyway, I don’t have all the answers to solve this urgent problem. I just realize that it was really wrong the way molesters were moved so much, the way victims were treated by the hierarchy, and how little historically was done to even arrest the pedophile’s proclivities in the slightest way (see Boston, Philadelphia, Ireland etc.)

I might be wrong, but part of me feels, that is some of those bishops/ priests had kids, or had an open “normal” sex life, they would have had more of the sense to not go along with the “cover up” and have known how wrong and harmful such actions really are…

Any thoughts ( Ill brace myself!)

 

[Orogeny]

I know my next opinion is controversial, but I will say it anyway. I think Mandatory priestly celibacy should be done away with. I don’t believe the celibacy " made the priests abuse" but I do think many sexually dysfunctional people in the past saw the priesthood as a place to “hide out” and dismiss peoples suspicions as to why they did not yet have a girlfriend.

I also believe that if some of the priests/ bishops etc. had children of their own, their tolerance for priestly pedophilia would have been at least somewhat less than it historically has been… maybe more would have thought it to be the right thing to do to turn in an abusive “brother priest” to the police.

Any idea how many abusers have children, have used their children to lure victims into their homes and/or have abused their own children?

There may be valid reasons to move away from priestly celibacy, but the sex abuse scandal is not one of them.

I also think, not all, but some priests’ celibacy leads to an obsession with sex, which occupies their minds more than non celibate people. One priest at my parish years ago, kept saying “what a noble sacrifice it was” that in college he did not date, and has subsequently given up marital relations with a woman, in a manner similar to how an anorexic might boast about how they only eat two spinach salads per day and nothing else… It is an odd focus that many people just don’t obsess over in the same way.

That obsession would be about sex with children ONLY if the man was attracted to children to begin with. If a heterosexual man becomes a priest and struggles with celibacy, his desire will be with a grown woman, not a child.

I might be wrong, but part of me feels, that is some of those bishops/ priests had kids, or had an open “normal” sex life, they would have had more of the sense to not go along with the “cover up” and have known how wrong and harmful such actions really are…

A “normal” sex life suggests sex with a woman, not a child. Again, if a “normal” man fantasizes, it would be about a woman, not a child. How would celibacy cause him to be attracted to children?

Again, I think there are valid arguments for removing the celibacy requirement, but this argument is not one of them.

Peace

Tim

 

[HabemusFrancis]

True… I said though that celibacy does not “make someone go after a child”

Im just a bit upset and discouraged is all… I feel I need to confirm everything the hierarchy says about this issue nowadays…

But I do wonder… there historically has been a good amount of coldness toward abuse victims form non abusive clergy… It just seems odd and strange the amount of indifference toward abusive priests… in a similar manner across the globe…

I do feel the media helped put a stop to it… Just reading the documents and history of this whole scandal… it all seems so odd and puzzling… I am really grasping at straws for an explanation… and have offended people in doing so… Sorry…

 

[TheresaLS]

Habemus…I am going to share something that I have always found difficult. I was abused by a neighbor. A very nice man with a large family. He had everything…a beautiful wife, a large family. This was a sick human being as are the priests who abuse. Would marriage have changed their behavior…probably not. I have spoken with many ministers from other faiths and they share the “abuses” that happens within their congregations. We have talked about celibacy and they all have agreed that it is a small part of the problem There are priests out there that have put their vocations on the line to expose the abuses and they are the ones that have been punished.

My scars have healed but the memories surface at the most unexpected times…

 

[chero23]

You also have to understand, yes we have some priests, who do not do what their swore to do. But b/c these men do that, it does not mean the whole church is in favor.

 

[SinnersAnonymus]

The problem is not caused by celibacy.

These people exhibit highly predatory characteristics and often “seek out” professions and lifestyles which allow them to exploit children. These tendencies can start at a young at (sometimes the onset of puberty) and more severe cases are generally therapeutically “bullet proof”. This can result in state ordered chemical castration in order to limit the abuse of the predator.

In mental health, I have had the misfortune of learning about one once and I found it deeply disturbing. The pattern of behavior and how their thoughts, drives, and feelings dominate the person strikes me as diabolical. Add the fact that for anything more serious than level one offenders (these conically abusive people you are describing start at level 2) therapy is virtually ineffective, for me acts as a strong indicator for demonic tampering.

This is an issue in which the Church decided to trust in Psychology and Psychiatry back in the day to help “fix” these priests and it did not work.

Society is plagued with this issue and it is not just the Roman Catholic Church. Whatever profession exists that deals with trust and children can suffer from this. Cases involving Pediatricians are incredibly disturbing but do occur.

The latest report on human trafficking said that the child sex slave trade in the US in on the rise thanks to the lucrative demand and willing gangs to satiate the demand. More disturbingly the gangs are stating that it is more lucrative then drugs.

This is a tumor infecting society and its spread can even reach the Church. I have found the media is often biased and does not paint a full picture:shrug:.

God Bless

 

[HabemusFrancis]

I am so sorry to hear your story…

I am aware that lack of celibacy does not cure abusive tendencies… or anything close…

Virtually all people who were arrested for this crime last year never took such vows…

What I think lack of celibacy may have cured… is the serial tolerance for the abuse… perhaps because they wanted to hide their own sexual sins of a less severe nature? idk…

 

[po18guy]

Judas Iscariot was part of the Church hierarchy!

What you are seeing is the evil one’s attack on the Church. Evil is not a random thing - it has a source. That source is present before and during every act of evil. Please read about four common tactics of the devil. See how they have affected the hierarchy - and, how they have affected you.

Your solution is not - not - to complain, but to pray for the Church hierarchy.

 

[Orogeny]

What I think lack of celibacy may have cured… is the serial tolerance for the abuse… perhaps because they wanted to hide their own sexual sins of a less severe nature? idk…

I don’t accept your characterization of the problem as a “serial tolerance for the abuse…”. That may have been the case in some dioceses, but I believe that in the vast majority of dioceses the bishops followed the advice of mental health experts that said that the problems could be successfully treated. Once treated, the molesters were returned to ministry. Clearly a horrible mistake, but I don’t equate that with tolerance of the problem.

Besides, as you noted, virtually all molesters don’t take vows of celibacy. Empathy with victims based on the freedom to have sexual relations with a woman clearly don’t seem to make a difference.

Peace

Tim

 

[Avila123]

Whilst there is no doubt that what these child abusers did was Wrong and there is absolutely no excuse for them, the proportion of Catholic Priests and Religious committing this heinous act is not greater than the proportion in other denominations or faiths. It gets more prolonged coverage than any other cases elsewhere. Some churches simply disband and reform to avoid the stigma, Social Services and Hospitals sack the person and claim ignorance, whilst other cases are of little interest to the press.

On this latter point, in the UK there was uproar from the Muslim communities years ago when the extent of child abuse by their clerics was revealed by a TV program. There were no arrests because the whole community closed and the abusers were smuggled out of the country.

If a report or suspicion is made in our Diocese, I understand our Bishop is constrained from acting unless instructed or advised to do so by the Police. We have a child and vulnerable adult protection scheme run by a small team of trained lay members. They are obliged to report all allegations to the police (and re-iterate this in all training sessions) and do not to inform the Bishop until the Police say they can.

For us Catholics, all we can do is pray and work hard to set up robust schemes to ensure the protection of children and vulnerable adults.

 

[Lormar]

Judas Iscariot was part of the Church hierarchy!

What you are seeing is the evil one’s attack on the Church. Evil is not a random thing - it has a source. That source is present before and during every act of evil. Please read about four common tactics of the devil. See how they have affected the hierarchy - and, how they have affected you.

Your solution is not - not - to complain, but to pray for the Church hierarchy.

 

[HabemusFrancis]

Hmmm… Well I do not have all the answers… It ultimately not in my power to fix, I realize that…

But even if medical experts “cured” the preists… that doen’t explain pressuring families into silence, paying them off, or in some cases being cold and unconcerned…

Do you agree with me on the lawyers and media’s ultimately positive role in uncovering this all?

I can only hope that this mess is cleaned up… It has to a large extant… but every so often, it seems a spot has been missed… as what happend a few weeks ago in MN…

As sad and unfair as it is, it is important to note that most of these abuse cases happened before 1985 or so, something like 90 %… in USA at least…

And I understand that before the 1980s or so, help or support for any victims of molestation was very rare indeed

Much of time victims remained quiet, being too sad or confused to talk about it. If they did talk about, they often were not believed, or were not helped in an appropriate or empathetic matter… Before recently… they never went to police for fear of embarrassment or shame…

Could it be that the feminst revolution helped society confront pedophilia more than it historically has? Remember they demanded laws that made police sensitive to rape victims, educated people on date rape, and other sexual violence issues…

Could it have translated to pedophilia as well?

 

[Orogeny]

I can only hope that this mess is cleaned up… It has to a large extant… but every so often, it seems a spot has been missed… as what happend a few weeks ago in MN…

Evil will always exist, no matter how hard we try to stamp it out. All we can do is to do the best we can to eradicate it.

Peace

Tim

 

[SinnersAnonymus]

The teachings of the Church clearly state that one should obey the laws of man as long as it does not interfere with the laws of God.

In this sense the Church has changed a lot and does a better job now at being more transparent then many other professions. As was stated previously, other professions usually fire the person and claim innocence.

What bothers me about the media however, is its tendency to focus on the Church. For example again is the rise in children in human sex trafficking which occurred and is occurring during media coverage of church scandals. This something which I rarely, hear about in main stream media. Why the silence (when compared to the air time given to the Church) to something which affects everybody and not just Catholic families?

What happened to American news that when children are abducted and/or forced into prostitution for gangs inside cities, the mainstream media focuses on celebrities or scandals? Where is objective reporting to better inform people about things that may happen in their neighborhoods?

My personal rant about the media aside, I wanted to say that I am glad that you are having an open and honest conversation about your feelings toward the Church. You are being very open to differing opinions and discussion. The best thing I can say is to pray as much as one can for Gods will and do ones best to prevent this in their life to the best of their ability.

God Bless

 

[ffg]

No need to brace yourself. It is really frustrating to see.

These are examples as to why we put our faith in God and not man.

It would be great if God’s Church on earth was run by angels, but it’s not.

Confidently, we can at least know that through all the trials, the Church will still be around while clocks tick.

Light will come from the darkness, it has since the dawn of time. Stay strong.

 

[po18guy]

It ultimately not in my power to fix, I realize that…

It is within your power to pray. The Holy Spirit, the Consoler, comes only by invitation.

 

[mikekle]

Any idea how many abusers have children, have used their children to lure victims into their homes and/or have abused their own children?

There may be valid reasons to move away from priestly celibacy, but the sex abuse scandal is not one of them.That obsession would be about sex with children ONLY if the man was attracted to children to begin with. If a heterosexual man becomes a priest and struggles with celibacy, his desire will be with a grown woman, not a child.A “normal” sex life suggests sex with a woman, not a child. Again, if a “normal” man fantasizes, it would be about a woman, not a child. How would celibacy cause him to be attracted to children?

Again, I think there are valid arguments for removing the celibacy requirement, but this argument is not one of them.

Peace

Tim

Ive also thought alot about this, it seems strange to me, all the priests that do such things, seek out young boys and not young girls, not that one is better than the other, but it is strange not one priest has sought out young girls, why is there a homosexual aspect to all of these incidents?

I am not surprised something like this was ‘swept under the rug’ but officials, if you look at the child sex trade as a whole, it is always the lower end people that get caught and arrested, and you never see the ‘higher up’ people even being named or talked about, I believe this is because these men are in very powerful positions in the govt, large industry, business leaders, etc. and they are protected and almost immune from any kind of legal prosecution. It is sad, but that is just the way our world is, with great power and money, you can get away with anything.

 

[manualman]

I don’t know your area, so this is not a particular comment on your bishop. But bishops have always been in a hard place when accusations are made against priests. We’d like to imagine that civil secular culture is fair, unbiased and civilized, but it isn’t. True, we’ve had a 50-70 run in THIS country where there has been little support for overt for repression of Catholicism. That era is drawing to an end here and never did exist in many countries. the fact is that there are millions of people who despise Catholicism because that what the tempters are constantly whispering in their ears. On a global scale, it simply is not practical to establish a policy of turning over all accusations to the police. In many countries, that’s all the excuse the state needs to arrest said priest and he’s never seen again. Even here, the simple news of a police investigation is treated in the media as de facto guilt.

When a priest is accused, the bishop needs to discern between genuine wrongdoing and malicious agendas. If he errs on one side, a holy man is smeared for life and will never recover his reputation. If he errs on the other side, children are harmed. There is no margin for error. There’s no doubt that many bad decisions have been made. But I, for one, am glad I’m not the one who has to make such decisions. Lord have mercy.

 

[weller2]

The problem is not caused by celibacy.

The problem is however enabled by celibacy. Pedophile priests (in the clinical definition of the term) are quite rare. A stunning majority of vivtims was boys aged 12-16 – that’s not pedophilia, that’s homosexuality.

Celibacy creates an all-male environment, therefore people with homosexual tendedencies seek clerical carrier. The formation process is supposed to weed those out, but let’s face it, it does not. Further, in the seminar, you have many young men crammed together in a limited space – a situation not unlike that in prison. It has been observed long ago, that in such environment, nominally heterosexual men start to exhibit homosexual behavior.

A 2002 survey of RC priests noted has found that homosexuality in the clerical environement is widespread:

Nineteen percent of respondents questioned said there was “clearly” a gay subculture in their dioceses or religious orders, and 36 percent said there “probably” was. Asked the same question about the seminaries they attended, 15 percent said “clearly” and 26 percent “probably.”

beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2002/08/Survey-Suggests-Gay-Priest-Culture.aspx

The same article contains a rather shocking admission by one seminarian:

Hoge and Wenger wrote that in personal talks with 75 priests ``we heard numerous negative reports about homosexual subcultures in seminaries.’’ One priest said he was “shocked,” another said that some fellow students were “kind of predators.”

It is often said that people with predatory tendiencies seek priesthood, because it gives them easy access to victims – and that the Church cannot be blamed for that. The Church, however, SHOULD be blamed for being unable to weed out these predators during five years of seminary.The job of formation advisors is nothing else then getting to know the candidate. If you cannot identify a person with abnormal tendencies when practically observing them 24/7 for five years, then you are doing something wrong.

Anyway, the number of homosexuals in the clergy is estimated to be 30% (and that’s the lower estimate). As the Church has clear anti-homosexuality stance, widespread homosexuality of the clergy creates a problem. If a priest is caught engaging in homosexual behavior, then this has potential for a major scandal. Not because people don’t like homosexuals (although that also), but because people do not like hypocrisy. This fear of scandal, therefore, creates a particular culture of cover-up.

Consider a hypothetical situation where a bishop receives information that one of his priests regularly frequents a gay sauna. (No, not that Vatican-owned one) . The bishop is then presented with two choices. He can fire the offender, but in doing so, the mere admission of having a homosexual in the clergy will cause a scandal. Or, he can pay hush money to the witness, and move the offender somewhere else – which avoids doing the dirty laundry in public. He will usually choose the second option.

This situation creates a culture where the standard procedure for dealing with accusations of improper priestly behavior is to hush the witnesses and move the offender somewhere else – preferably to another diocese, so he becomes someone else’s problem. The offender, on the other hand, feels that he’s given a free pass, because the bishops gets him out of trouble every time.

This is admittedly a pretty good (if immoral) strategy as long as the gay priest only engages with consensual relations with adults. However, it appears that bishops do not read the criminal code, especially the sections on underage relations and abetting crime.

This is also why I believe that the present “zero tolerance” stance is bound to fail in the long run. You cannot claim with a straight face that you have a zero tolerance policy on relations with persons under 18 if you have a policy of hushing everything else.

This is a tumor infecting society and its spread can even reach the Church.

And while the society is determine to excise it, the Church is determined to treat it with psychotherapy and make-up. Ain’t gonna work.

 

[Orogeny]

The problem is however enabled by celibacy. Pedophile priests (in the clinical definition of the term) are quite rare. A stunning majority of vivtims was boys aged 12-16 – that’s not pedophilia, that’s homosexuality.

Celibacy creates an all-male environment, therefore people with homosexual tendedencies seek clerical carrier. The formation process is supposed to weed those out, but let’s face it, it does not. Further, in the seminar, you have many young men crammed together in a limited space – a situation not unlike that in prison. It has been observed long ago, that in such environment, nominally heterosexual men start to exhibit homosexual behavior.

Even homosexuals can be celibate. Celibacy, if followed, is the solution to the problem, not an contributor to the problem.

The problem is the failure to follow their vow of celibacy.

Peace

Tim