Little Problem, Need Help

  • Thread starter Thread starter DarinHamel
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have said that you believe that the Catholic Church is the best religion to belong to.

The Catholic Church endorses Marian apparitions such as Fatima and Lourdes; the children involved were canonized. The children reported visions that very much supported the teachings of the Catholic Church: Eucharist, Rosary, Marian Apparitions.

The Catholic Church teaches morals and ethics, but the same religion, the same people, also teaches about the supernatural and miracles.

Perhaps they have the best handle on morality because they have the best handle on the truth. If that is so - we have many reasons to believe that these visions are true, which gives us more reasons to believe in the Catholic Church.

I know I’m going in a circle here, but I guess that’s my point. Once you’ve hopped on the merry-go-round … bad analogy, I’ll stop here.
 
It is true that ancient pagan religions had things that seem similar to stuff in Christianity, especially Catholicism. But what’s wrong with that? Maybe in their search for truth, they found a little nugget of truth. Pagans prayed to their gods. Does that mean that praying is bad or that it is a pagan practice? Nope. One way that you could look at it is that God took what was good from every religion, perfected it, and made it part of His own.

I would suggest reading Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis. It is pretty short, but very good. I think he addresses many of your problems in the book, including (to some extent) original sin.
 
I dont want blind faith, because even if it is well placed it is still ignorance.

Nobody- “Your humor is appreciated.”
 
40.png
DarinHamel:
Nobody- “Your humor is appreciated.”
Click to expand...
Thanks.

But what do you think of Fatima and Lourdes?
 
Wow–lots has been said since I last posted on this thread! In my last post I mentioned that Jesus was “from the beginning”–not “Plan-B”. Perhaps that is why throughout history He is prefigured in world cultures. Why would God not leave prefiguring texts in all of creation? God wants ALL men to come to Him.

I think the person who suggested studying typology is on to something…
 
Fatima and Lourdes? A lady appearing in white robes has been sighted in every culture and in every time. She calls herself “The Lady”. Sometimes she holds a chalice but she is always associated with well and streams.

I think it is the personal mystical process that is being told in symbolic language from the Epic of Gilgamesh to the Revelations of St John. The creation story and exodus story have been explained in judiasm as symbolic of the mystical process in an individual. So its not Jesus being prefigured its the same mystical process thats being told and retold.
 
40.png
DarinHamel:
Fatima and Lourdes? A lady appearing in white robes has been sighted in every culture and in every time. She calls herself “The Lady”. Sometimes she holds a chalice but she is always associated with well and streams.
Click to expand...
Well, this Lady told St. Bernadette she was the “Immaculate Conception”. Pretty Catholic. This was recent enough it can’t be called a myth. Why would Bernadette report this?
I think it is the personal mystical process that is being told in symbolic language from the Epic of Gilgamesh to the Revelations of St John. The creation story and exodus story have been explained in judiasm as symbolic of the mystical process in an individual. So its not Jesus being prefigured its the same mystical process thats being told and retold.
Click to expand...
Why can’t Jesus be the essential part of that mystical process?
 
I just read this silly blog that a comedian set up to sound like the Pope. He was talking about relitivism and computer languages and if I was smarter I could explain it or put a link here to it. It gave me the shivers. It answered my questions I think. I am going to go back there and re-read it. Its called Musum Pontificalis and I got it from the Michael Medved website.
 
40.png
DarinHamel:
I just read this silly blog that a comedian set up to sound like the Pope. He was talking about relitivism and computer languages and if I was smarter I could explain it or put a link here to it. It gave me the shivers. It answered my questions I think. I am going to go back there and re-read it. Its called Musum Pontificalis and I got it from the Michael Medved website.
Click to expand...
Why would something like that impress you…Hmmmmmmmm?:hmmm:
 
Would you believe I have never read that? I’ll get it, thanks. I had an uncle who tried to get me to read it a few years back. Hmmm…
 
40.png
DarinHamel:
What would you tell a Hindu to get them to convert?
What would you tell a buddhist, a taoist, a shaman?
Click to expand...
First, I’d ask them if they’d die for their faith. See my post # 37 above.
 
Darin,

If I may, I would suggest reading C.S. Lewis. He was very intellectual and very Christian; in fact, I think he is one of the few people who intellectualized his way into Christianity. Particularly good is a series of essays called God In the Dock.
  • Liberian
 
40.png
DarinHamel:
Also next year I want to take vows. Not in an established order but the personal ones before my bishop of poverty, chastity and obedience.
Click to expand...
Vow your obedience to whom?
 
40.png
DarinHamel:
What I really take issue with most is original sin. We have mapped our genetic history. Why does original sin have to be the explanation for our imperfections. Calling our imperfections sins presupposes a standard of behavior that doesn’t exist outside of something that can only be established with circular reasoning.
Click to expand...
What does genetic history have to do with the state of the soul? If we do have souls, isn’t that where the imperfection would be? Wouldn’t it be the imperfection of our souls that makes us give into the lusts of the body? Isn’t sin a stain on the soul, so wouldn’t original sin have to do with the soul as well?

As a side note, possibly J.R.R. Tolkien’s view of Truth and Myth would be interesting to you. I know he is no theologian, but this might be an acceptable explanation for you.
***" Christianity, the True Myth, has reconciled all lesser myths to itself. The lesser myths, in the form of fairy story or romance, were derived from Reality, or are flowing into it. However inadequate in themselves, they still offered a glimpse of the greater Truth from which they spring or into which they flow. ***
*That was Tolkien. [Read more here](mythictruth.com(name removed by moderator)ages/Truth_and_Myth.htm). Tolkien had some great quote that I’ve seen around, but can’t find to the effect of… Christianity is Myth made Fact with God as the Poet… and something else I can’t remember. A good quote, surely. I wish someone would find it for me. Hint hint.

EDIT: I just remembered. Tolkien was extraordinarily well acquainted with myths, being how he wanted to make the Silmarillion the English equivalent of the Finnish Kalevala, etc… perhaps you’d prize his opinion more for his grounding in myth… that’s just another thought…

Perhaps when looking for the uniqueness of Christianity, you should ask yourself, if it is true. If it is, unqualified, true, then that is unique enough. Do you believe Christ existed? Do you believe he rose from the dead? (You answer yes to both, right?). If you believe both, why not believe what He taught? Yes, other cultures and religions have myths that are similiar to Christianity, but Christianity is the only one where you can surely say that Myth became Fact.

As a side note… Why do you accept that the dead have been raised in other religions? Just because the story exists doesn’t necessarily prove it. I mean, you can deduce that Jesus existed (historically), that he was crucified, and explain the actions of the disciples as being consistent with him having risen. Is it possible to do all this for the other examples? Maybe you need a dose of skepticism for these other myths which you are now focusing like fire on Christianity.

–Rob

PS- as always, I try to address people in charity, I’d love to hear your candid thoughts about what I’ve written. I tried to be as candid as I could as well. 👍

EDIT: GAhh! I hate automatic wysiwyg type systems like this… haha, please excuse the random formatting:p

EDIT 2: I think I got it all. Heh.
 
First the obedience would be to the local bishop like normal. I might do the vows sooner than next year. Take a blind leap of faith. Not like the guy who told his woodstove, “First you give me heat, and then I’ll give you wood.”

Second, Tolkien yeah, I love him. I’ll check that out.

Side note: I could turn all your arguments back with your own statements which means they are at least semi-circular. If I don’t believe a chinese mystic rose from the dead why believe Jesus did? Couldn’t you be as skeptical of christianity as you are of other religions?

I found the Davinci Code repulsive. It did have one redeeming quality. The great books it inspired refuting it. I found alot of answers in them. Perhaps this is why God isn’t spoon feeding me faith and making me fight for every scrap of it.

You guys are great! Thanks! Do you know of any evangelistic sites designed to bring folks back into the church?
 
40.png
DarinHamel:
I heard a very true saying that says something like “Protestants who know church history cease to be Protestants”.

My problem is I know world history and can see the Catholic church in the context of thousands of years of world history and countless religions. From an objective point of this historical view why even be christian let alone Catholic?

I have read and loved Scott Hann. He is so on fire for the Catholic faith and before that he was on fire for his Calvinist faith. Through gods grace and the study of history he came to the Catholic Church. I am a cradle Catholic and attend mass daily. I however love ancient world history. From the perspective of world history the True Faith doesn’t look so true anymore.

Help me but don’t tell me to pray, have faith or just stick to it. I have done all those things for years and now I want intellectual answers so I can convince my mind and give my heart a break.
Click to expand...
You have started a great thread, Darin. I don’t know whether I have much to offer, but that’s never stopped me before! A lot of what seems to be troubling you are the perceived similarities between biblical accounts and those found within the tradition of other belief systems–e.g. the dying gods, great floods, etc. This seems to be a problem for you, but I would suggest that it shouldn’t be. In fact, a Christian writer by the name of George MacDonald began a train of thelogical thought and discussion which led C.S. Lewis (an Anglican) and J.R.R. Tolkien (a devout and passionate Catholic) to refer to Christianity as the “True Myth” for this very reason. (See also RobNY’s earlier post.) This discovery played a significant part in the conversion of Lewis from atheism to theism to Christianity. Some have described Lewis as one of the western world’s last true scholars–his breadth of knowledge and reading was immense. He recognized the authenticity of the Gospel accounts and perceived other faiths’ similarities to the Bible as being pale reflections of the truth.

As we are all made in the image of God, is it no wonder that men have said some similar things? The difference is that in Christianity it has the greatest ring of truth and historical accuracy. Personally, I have been intrigued in the last year with how I have found science and faith interwoven, but these observations did not come easily. (If you want more information on this train of thought, let me know. I won’t bore everyone here more than absolutely necessary!) I will pass on some book recommendations, if you’re interested, but I have yet to read the first two: Total Truth by Nancy Pearcey, The Evidential Power of Beauty by Thomas Subay, Salvation is from the Jews by Roy Schoeman, The Weight of Glory by C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis, C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church by Joseph Pearce, Tolkien, Man and Myth by Joseph Pearce, The Question of God, C.S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud Debate God, Love, Sex, and the Meaning of Life by Dr. Armand M. Nicholi, Jr, and Confessions by Saint Augustine (another man who had trouble believing in his youth). I also will add my support to the previous poster who recommended Evidence that Demands a Verdict. I have not read that one yet, but I hear it is excellent.

One of the reasons we converted to the Catholic Church was the consistency we found there between faith and reason. I urge you not to abandon the Church, but to re-focus your intellectual energies and humble yourself before God’s will. I trust and pray that he will bring you peace and rest in your spiritual journey.
 
40.png
Liberian:
Darin,

If I may, I would suggest reading C.S. Lewis. He was very intellectual and very Christian; in fact, I think he is one of the few people who intellectualized his way into Christianity. Particularly good is a series of essays called God In the Dock.
  • Liberian
Click to expand...
Yes, I second this recommendation also! I just picked this up because of “Priestesses in the Church?”–Lewis voicing opposition to the odrination of women. One suggestion… Don’t try reading when you’re tired. Have to concentrate a bit at times.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top