Little Problem, Need Help

[RobNY]

DarinHamel:

Side note: I could turn all your arguments back with your own statements which means they are at least semi-circular. If I don’t believe a chinese mystic rose from the dead why believe Jesus did? Couldn’t you be as skeptical of christianity as you are of other religions?

Well, I know that if I merely went back and proofed by arguments you’d find a way to weasel out of them. Let’s be honest, there’s a way out of any argument you want to argue yourself out of.

My point wasn’t to argue, but just to show you my thoughts. Rather raw, and only moderately filtered.

Darin, my point was, I’d like to know if you can marshall any evidence for the raising of the dead from another culture or religion. My only point is that these are still relegated back in the mists of time and are still firmly myths. The story of Christ, on the other hand, we can place rather well in history. That’s my point. Now, I see you didn’t attempt to place the stories of the Chinese mystics firmly in history (as I tried to ask you to do). I’m not sure it can be done. It can be done with Christianity.

I find your claim of semi-circular reasoning also a bit suspect. I was aiming it against your particular positions and statements. You are attacking the story of Christianity with quite firm skepticism, but where is this treatment with skepticism of the Chinese or other ancient myths? (Maybe I slightly misunderstood what you said here :“Is Jesus the only guy to rise from the dead? Nope, there are many Chinese stories of their mystics rising from the dead”-- at first i thought you meant other people had been raised from the dead, but on a reread, I think you’re just challenging the “uniqueness” of the Jesus story. I thought you were saying that you believed that, but, apparently I made to quick a read, combined with some of your murky prose which led to a misunderstanding). So, apparently, I was laboring under the false impression that you thought some chinese guy had been raised from the dead. Anyway, I’d say this: the uniqueness of Christianity is that, where other myths remain myths, God made Christianity the Fact of history. That Christianity is wholly true would be unique enough, after all, there can only be one Truth, right? Hehe.

Darin, a side note (to you this time ): I too find faith very hard. But, unlike you, my conflict is not between True Faiths, but True Faith and no faith. To me, Catholicism is the most eminently reasonable of all the religions, and particularly of Christianity. But I’ve always had trouble with my belief in God. I’m doing my best to assure myself now. I fervently hope for my faith to be strengthened. We come from different directions on this issue, but I think we’re both intensely interested in it.

Oh, by the way, what did you think of my comments on original sin? If the whole physical body vs. the soul thing works, I hope it helped you.

-Rob

 

[itsjustdave1988]

DarinHamel,

DarinHamel:

Its just a fact and I want to know the truth through the facts.

It sounds as though you take as fact the unprovable historical theories that you’ve come across. Why should one have such faith that these historical theories are in reality, fact? There’s much evidence that suggests that you ought to be skeptical of such theories. For example…

One of the most popular Protestant authors, C.S. Lewis, refuting the novel claims of modern biblical scholars, stated:“The undermining of the old orthodoxy has been mainly the work of divines engaged in New Testament criticism. The authority of experts in that discipline is the authority in deference to whom we are asked to give up a huge mass of beliefs shared in common by the early church…”

(C.S. Lewis, “Modern Theology and Biblical Criticism,” Chapter 31, McDowell, J., The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Nelson Publishers, Nashville, 1999, pg. 574)

C.S. Lewis goes on to explain why he is skeptical of this new “authority of experts.” With regard to modern historical criticism, C.S. Lewis rightly compares the reliability of historical criticism to the reliability of those who attempted to review and theorize about his own literary works. C.S. Lewis wrote many works of science fiction, children’s stories, as well as scholarly works. Reviewers would often attempt to apply literary criticism to his works, to reconstruct his authorial intent, and in C.S. Lewis’ view, what “he can say with certainty” follows:"I have watched with some care similar imaginary histories both of my own books and of books by friends whose real history I knew. Reviewers, both friendly and hostile, will dash you off such histories with great confidence; will tell you what public events had directed the author’s mind to this or that, what other authors had influenced him, what his overall intention was, what sort of audience he principally addressed, why–and when–he did everything.

… My impression is that in the whole of my experience not one of these guesses has on any one point been right; that the method shows a record of 100 percent failure. You would expect that by mere chance they would hit as often as they miss. But it is my impression that they do no such thing. I can’t remember a single hit… ***What I think I can say with certainty is that they are usually wrong… ***

Now this surely ought to give us pause. The reconstruction of the history of a text, when the text is ancient, sounds very convincing. But one is afterall sailing by dead reckoning; the results cannot be checked by fact. In order to decide how reliable the method is, what more could you ask for than to be shown an instance where the same method is at work and we have facts to check it by? Well, that is what I have done. And we find that when this check is available, the results are either always, or else nearly always wrong.

… While I respect the learning of the great biblical critics, I am not yet persuaded that their judgment is equally to be respected. But secondly, consider with what overwhelming advantages the mere reviewers start. They reconstruct the history of a book written by someone whose mother-tongue is the same as theirs; a contemporary, educated like themselves, living in something like the same mental and spiritual climate. They have everything to help them.

The superiority in judgment and diligence that you are going to attribute to the biblical critics will have to be almost superhuman if it is to offset the fact that they are everywhere faced with customs, language, race characteristics, a religious background, habits of composition, and basic assumptions, which no scholarship will ever enable any man now alive to know as surely and intimately and distinctively as the reviewer can know mine. And for the very same reason, remember, the biblical critics, whatever reconstructions they devise, can never be crudely proved wrong. St. Mark is dead. When they meet St. Peter, there will be more pressing matters to discuss." (ibid., 578-579)
My advice is that you ought to be more skeptical of those that "dash you off such histories with great confidence."

In other words, if you must have doubt, I suggest having doubt about that which is giving you doubt.

 

[nobody]

DarinHamel:

First the obedience would be to the local bishop like normal. I might do the vows sooner than next year. Take a blind leap of faith. Not like the guy who told his woodstove, “First you give me heat, and then I’ll give you wood.”

Then, I assume you have another “voice inside your head” that does believe what the Catholic church teaches, and that the doubts you are presenting here are from your “devil’s advocate voice”.

Is that true? If it is, you are in the same boat as most people here, I think.

 

[Oregon_Artist]

Dear Darin,

Your right. Through history the church has made lots of mistakes. I think one very important difference is that they admit them and try to change with God’s help. But isn’t that part of what makes the Bible so real? It is full of human beings- who make mistakes. Wouldn’t a Bible that was written with Men in mind try to cast the best light on people of faith? The fact is it doesn’t.
I also suggest you read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. He takes Christianity head on and answers questions about faith directly. I think he would be really good for you.
God Bless.

 

[DarinHamel]

To Nobody and everybody,
A little voice in my head and many on this site. I can’t believe this topic stirred so much interest. Nobody, you are probably right and this is everyones problem.

It is the classic head and heart battle. My heart is Catholic and drives me to the church and the head that must question and doubt everything. The voice from my heart calls me to pray daily. The voice in my head says to make sure your not wasting your time.

My belief of chinese mystics rising from the dead seems to really bother folks here. I believe both Jesus and others MAY have risen all over the world probably in every culture. Is that better? I doubt anybody here would believe if I gave a specific date and name. What the heck, RobNY this is for you- Wang Liping born in 1949 who died with witnesses in the autumn of 1966 and rose three days later. Very recent and credible.

Heres a question-Enoch and Elijah both ascended before Jesus was born let alone died on the cross. How?

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

DarinHamel:

Fatima and Lourdes? A lady appearing in white robes has been sighted in every culture and in every time. She calls herself “The Lady”. Sometimes she holds a chalice but she is always associated with well and streams.

I think it is the personal mystical process that is being told in symbolic language from the Epic of Gilgamesh to the Revelations of St John. The creation story and exodus story have been explained in judiasm as symbolic of the mystical process in an individual. So its not Jesus being prefigured its the same mystical process thats being told and retold.

Fatima was a bit different, I think. First, she identifies herself as Catholic via “I am the Immaculate Conception, etc” as said above. She also gives many miracles to prove it-

Consider-

It couldn’t have been a hallucination-three people saw it, and could only “see” parts. Lucy could see and hear Mary, Jacinta could only hear her, and Francisco could only see her. Would be a pretty weird hallucination.

Prophecies-She said Lucy would live on to carry the message (she died old), and Francisco and Jacinta would be taken to Heaven quickly (they died I think a year after). She said if the world didn’t shape up, there would be a war during the Reign of Pope Pius XII, as well as Russia spreading her atheist ways.

The Faith of the Children- A high Mason, Artur Santos, bribed and threatened to kill the children if they did not renounce what they saw. They perservered.

The Miracle of the Sun-It was witnessed by 70,000, including atheists and agnostics, in which it danced around and shot streaks of color (if I understand it correctly) on the day Mary said it would. I even heard a future priest in another country was gifted to be able to see it as a child!

Remember also, that if an apparition is not real, the Church won’t approve it. Before an apparition is approved, they, too, must take the position of skeptics.

Don’t forget the other zillions of apparitions, ecstacies, miracles such as ones that canonize saints, as well as incorruption.

Hope this helped some.

 

[AuntMartha]

First, do not take vows if you are this unsure. Don’t even make plans to take vows - you are not ready.

DarinHamel:

I dont want blind faith, because even if it is well placed it is still ignorance.

Why must you know everything? Isn’t that God’s job?

As far as head vs. heart - I tried for many years to think only with my head (Prove it to me! Some things don’t make sense! But…but…). All it caused was anguish in my life. When I finally just shut up about all of that, I was able to relax, breathe, and love and enjoy God’s presence.

There comes a point when you have to just love God with your heart. Mental gymnastics over proving things or not proving things is not going to rest your heart. It is already exhausting it to the point where you are in extreme doubt. The excessive prayer is also exhausting you. You need to find alternative ways to serve God, like others have suggested.

 

[Writer]

DarinHamel:

To Nobody and everybody,
A little voice in my head and many on this site. I can’t believe this topic stirred so much interest. Nobody, you are probably right and this is everyones problem.

It is the classic head and heart battle. My heart is Catholic and drives me to the church and the head that must question and doubt everything. The voice from my heart calls me to pray daily. The voice in my head says to make sure your not wasting your time.

My belief of chinese mystics rising from the dead seems to really bother folks here. I believe both Jesus and others MAY have risen all over the world probably in every culture. Is that better? I doubt anybody here would believe if I gave a specific date and name. What the heck, RobNY this is for you- Wang Liping born in 1949 who died with witnesses in the autumn of 1966 and rose three days later. Very recent and credible.

Heres a question-Enoch and Elijah both ascended before Jesus was born let alone died on the cross. How?

Enoch and Elijah and perhaps even Moses in some way (depending on one’s interpretation of Jude 9) were given this gift by and through God. They did not achieve this state by and through themselves, but it was through God, their creator, that they were allowed this special honor. That is precisely the difference. Furthermore, it does not matter in the least that this took place before Christ’s virgin birth. For one thing, Christ was just as present then as He was when he walked the earth as a man. He is, was, and has always been–completely outside of our time.

I don’t believe in resurrections (in a classical sense), except those detailed in the Bible. If Wang’s “resurection” were demonstrated somehow to have taken place, I would have to point to the devil as the force behind it, because (1) man does not have this power over death, and (2) the resurection of a non-believer would not glorify God, so He would have no reason to permit it. In all seriousness, though, I don’t believe Satan has this power to bring back the dead; it would run counter to his nature, and it is too great a power for any created thing to wield.

I must have missed the comments on apparitions. I won’t comment on Fatima or Lourdes directly because I don’t know enough about those case, however, I will say that there have been cases of supposed Marian apparitions which were not what they appeared to be. I am extremely skeptical of anything of that nature, and it is fine for a Catholic to be skeptical. Reason is not contrary to faith but dove-tails with it to form a clear vision of what it means to be a Christian in the modern world.

 

[THEOPHILUS]

DarinHamel:

I dont want blind faith, because even if it is well placed it is still ignorance.

Nobody- “Your humor is appreciated.”

Did you think about what I asked you?

THEOPHILUS†

 

[THEOPHILUS]

DarinHamel:

Fatima and Lourdes? A lady appearing in white robes has been sighted in every culture and in every time. She calls herself “The Lady”. Sometimes she holds a chalice but she is always associated with well and streams.

I think it is the personal mystical process that is being told in symbolic language from the Epic of Gilgamesh to the Revelations of St John. The creation story and exodus story have been explained in judiasm as symbolic of the mystical process in an individual. So its not Jesus being prefigured its the same mystical process thats being told and retold.

Fatima and Lourdes are not evidences. They need evidences themselves…

THEOPHILUS†

 

[RobNY]

DarinHamel:

My belief of chinese mystics rising from the dead seems to really bother folks here. I believe both Jesus and others MAY have risen all over the world probably in every culture. Is that better? I doubt anybody here would believe if I gave a specific date and name. What the heck, RobNY this is for you- Wang Liping born in 1949 who died with witnesses in the autumn of 1966 and rose three days later. Very recent and credible.

Hehe. I didn’t want to sound annoying, but I’m really clueless about the whole Chinese deal. I’ll look into it. Now, for the ever fun google search.

–Rob

PS- if you have any links, please send them, this search doesn’t seem to be going too well, thanks!

EDIT: oh my goodness… the google ads that they place when “wang liping” is in your search are just… hilarious… but inappropriate…

 

[BibleReader]

DarinHamel:

Heres a question-Enoch and Elijah both ascended before Jesus was born let alone died on the cross. How?

Possible solutions: (1) Time is a limited frame, regulating our existence, not God’s. There is no problem for Him.

(2) The grace of salvation goes forwards and backwards in time. The procession away from the gates of Hell, when Christ “descended into Hell and on the third day arose again from the dead,” was a formal process, only, intended to teach theology – not a watershed incident in time. We see such “formal processions” at various places in Scripture. For example, the Father in Heaven, through the Holy Spirit, told Peter, “He is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God,” Matthew 16:16. Yet, the Holy Spirit did not formally come until Pentecost. Another example: Jesus told Mary Magdalen after His resurrection that she could not touch Him because He had not yet ascended to His Father. John 20:17. Yet, at John 20:27, Jesus asks Thomas to touch Him, implying that an informal ascension preceded the formal ascension. Therefore, the assumptions of Enoch and Elijah (and possibly Noah too, by the way) were informal events, preceding Jesus’ formal procession after His “descent into Hell.”

 

[nobody]

DarinHamel:

It is the classic head and heart battle. My heart is Catholic and drives me to the church and the head that must question and doubt everything. The voice from my heart calls me to pray daily. The voice in my head says to make sure your not wasting your time.

Then let your heart pick the books, articles, websites, etc. that you read. It sounds like you are really into the Eastern religions/philosophies: perhaps you can find a Catholic author’s book on Eastern thought.

“You have to believe in something, or else you’ll fall for anything.” -I forget who said it (maybe Chesterton)

“The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid” - GK Chesterton (pretty sure on this one)

Peace.

 

[DarinHamel]

Would some of you, you know who you are, please re-read the title of the post. “LITTLE” Problem and my first post. I think alot of you are taking my post a little to seriously. I appreciate your concern, I am happy you all are helping me, you all are the best bunch I fellow catholics I have ever met.

I think of myself like St Francis making snow angels of a family and fighting with God about wanting a family or the time he jumped into the thorn bush and rolled around to combat lust. I think I posted too many doubts or something.

Maybe I said something I didn’t mean, or miswrote something. I have made my decision. I am taking vows. I am catholic. I have huge doubts and I have huge devotion. I will not cut down on my prayer time and I will not stop my mind from exploring its doubts.

Actually its only when I spend lots of time in prayer that I have doubts. When I don’t its because I am caught up in the world its just because I’m ignoring them. The absolute certainty some of you display is as odd to me as my doubts are to you.

What is bothering me is that more than half of these post seem judgemental. I’m sure all you you think your helping, and most of you are, but please take a deep breath, and pray a Hail Mary with me. "Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, AMEN.

Nobody-Chesterton and Lewis keep coming up. Must mean I should go buy them.

Biblereader-your way smarter than me, nice post.

RobNY-I teach Tai Chi and have a lot of Chinese history through osmosis. I quit teaching a year ago because folks were making a religion out of it and when they found out I was catholic some of them were offended because they wanted me to be buddhist or something. So I quit. Now I am starting again and this time I am going to try to use it as an evangelical tool. Most of my students are ex-catholics.

Theophilus-appearently I like complicated too much. What you say seems too simplistic (in a good way) to work in my life.

Writer- I think you misunderstand church teaching about no salvation outside the church. Please read #846-848 of the catechism.

Aunt Martha-Hey she was in the reading today! Martha, Martha did you really say to not pray as much. I have also had people tell me there’s more to life than God.

 

[MamaGeek]

DarinHamel:

Did I mention I pray alot? I pray an hour before mass, an hour after mass, an hour about three and an hour before going to sleep at night. You might think that makes me full of faith and surety but NO! Every doubt comes up. I have kept pretty quiet about it but I am getting frustrated.

It sounds like you are experiencing a “dark night of the soul,” of which you are most likely aware. I know you said you don’t want blind faith, but that may just be your head talking, as well. Definitely continue your theological/historical/apologetic pursuits, but consider asking for grace through the sacraments for God to grant you “blind faith” if that is His will for you. You mentioned Bishop Sheen, and one of his famous quotes was “All we need do is to voice these two petitions: Dear Lord, illumine my intellect to see the Truth, and give me the strength to follow it.” Your prayer life is bountiful, but for what do you pray? I have found the most humbling prayer to be, “Lord, grant me the grace to know and do your will.”

 

[MamaGeek]

DarinHamel:

If I don’t believe a chinese mystic rose from the dead why believe Jesus did? Couldn’t you be as skeptical of christianity as you are of other religions?

Were there witnesses to these other supposed resurrections throughout history who were so certain not only that the resurrection took place, but that the resurrected person is God that they tehmselves died in horrible torment rather than stop preaching about Him?

I’ll mention Bishop Sheen again. The opening sentence of The Life of Christ is “History is full of men who have claimed that they came from God, or that they were gods, or that they bore messages from God - Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius, Christ, Lao-tze, and thousands of others, right down to the person who founded a new religion this very day.” Sheen claims that tests of two kinds, reason and history, are the “permanent tests available to all men, all civilizations, and all ages, by which they can decide whether any of these claimants, or all of them, are justified by their claims.”

Have you read this book?

 

[Writer]

DarinHamel:

Would some of you, you know who you are, please re-read the title of the post. “LITTLE” Problem and my first post. I think alot of you are taking my post a little to seriously. I appreciate your concern, I am happy you all are helping me, you all are the best bunch I fellow catholics I have ever met.

I think of myself like St Francis making snow angels of a family and fighting with God about wanting a family or the time he jumped into the thorn bush and rolled around to combat lust. I think I posted too many doubts or something.

Maybe I said something I didn’t mean, or miswrote something. I have made my decision. I am taking vows. I am catholic. I have huge doubts and I have huge devotion. I will not cut down on my prayer time and I will not stop my mind from exploring its doubts.

Actually its only when I spend lots of time in prayer that I have doubts. When I don’t its because I am caught up in the world its just because I’m ignoring them. The absolute certainty some of you display is as odd to me as my doubts are to you.

What is bothering me is that more than half of these post seem judgemental. I’m sure all you you think your helping, and most of you are, but please take a deep breath, and pray a Hail Mary with me. "Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, AMEN.

Nobody-Chesterton and Lewis keep coming up. Must mean I should go buy them.

Biblereader-your way smarter than me, nice post.

RobNY-I teach Tai Chi and have a lot of Chinese history through osmosis. I quit teaching a year ago because folks were making a religion out of it and when they found out I was catholic some of them were offended because they wanted me to be buddhist or something. So I quit. Now I am starting again and this time I am going to try to use it as an evangelical tool. Most of my students are ex-catholics.

Theophilus-appearently I like complicated too much. What you say seems too simplistic (in a good way) to work in my life.

Writer- I think you misunderstand church teaching about no salvation outside the church. Please read #846-848 of the catechism.

Aunt Martha-Hey she was in the reading today! Martha, Martha did you really say to not pray as much. I have also had people tell me there’s more to life than God.

I am familiar with the CCC… Which post are you referring to?

 

[DarinHamel]

MamaGeek-I don’t pray for anythig but for God to change me into what He wants. “The Life of Christ” I’ll look it up. Yeah, Dark Night is what my priest and bishop say. I was a soldier for enough years that I still find the need to fight anything that seems to stand in my way.

Writer- “the ressurection of a non-believer wouldn’t glorify God”

 

[Strider]

DarinHamel:

Like a moslem would die for his?

I had to respond to this one. If you’re talking about the homicide bombers, you’re talking apples and oranges. They are murdering innocents for a political cause.
The thing I’m talking about is if someone held a dull kitchen knife to your throat and said, “Renounce Alllah or I will romove your head.”
A Muslim may refuse to renounce Allah, I don’t know. But your original question was about a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Taoist and a shaman. I would ask them if they would die for their faith.
I would approach a Moslem differently.

 

[Writer]

DarinHamel:

MamaGeek-I don’t pray for anythig but for God to change me into what He wants. “The Life of Christ” I’ll look it up. Yeah, Dark Night is what my priest and bishop say. I was a soldier for enough years that I still find the need to fight anything that seems to stand in my way.

Writer- "the ressurection of a non-believer wouldn’t glorify God"

I am familiar with the passage you are referring to, but I fail to see its applicability. “This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church…” You are implying that Christ could be glorified through the resurrection of a non-believer. Perhaps you might be right. After all, who am I to attribute hypothetical action to my creator. But, I think this is pretty far-feteched and not supported in Scripture or in the Catechism for that matter. There is a huge and fundamental difference between the saving of the “noble savage” who, through no fault of his own has not heard the gopspel, and the arbitrary resurrection of a non-believer. Why would God do something which would bring confusion to Chirstians? The gist of what you would be arguing, then, is that all roads lead to the same eternal destination, which is not Christian. Furthermore, we are fast moving into a world where this passage of the CCC may apply less and less. That is, there are fewer and fewer of those who have never heard the Good News given the current state of mass communications.

You seem caught up with the details of the painting which represents the Church, but you have not appeared to pay as close attention as perhaps you should to the broad brush strokes in the foreground. I would suggest you re-focus your attentions a bit in your review and “digestion” of the Bible and the CCC.