Little things

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chicago said:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
From the various discussions—it has become more clear. Striving to overcome our human weaknesses is somehow now seen as -apparently envious, boastful, arrogant, rude, irritable, resentful, —leading us away from truth and uncharitable.

We seem to have “another gospel” blowing thru the Church.

Well, if that is how one chooses to see things through their crimson colored glasses.

But, then, we all have weaknesses to overcome and I certainly won’t try to stop anyone from overcoming one’s own, if only each was to look inside for faults first and foremost rather than insisting upon interpreting everyone else’s offense.
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Originally Posted by chicago
Overcoming imperfections may mean that others have to patiently endure and even look the other way while we struggle through them, lest we all become mere annoying perfectionists

Quote=chicago
quote=Walking_Home
Now we are down to “annoying perfectionists”. It is truly sad when striving to overcome our human weaknesses instead of giving in to them is now seen as “annoying” and something to be “patiently endured”. This does give new insight to the current state of the Church

If we don’t “patiently endure” we’ll just painfully suffer.

“Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.”

… and the greatest of these is charity! In it lies true perfection.
Really now----chicago. As if — your own message wasn’t lost thru use of your own words.
 
Perfection is not something that any of us can achieve in this lifetime. Attempting to attain perfection is futile and can lead to enormos disappointment and feelings of failure and in some cases serious illness. I was determined to be a perfect parent at one point and I really thought I wasn’t good enough if I wasn;t a perfect parent. I never failed to be disappointed with myself and my self esteem suffered and I did become ill. I have learned, the hard way, to let go a little and not to let every single thing annoy me.
 
Linnyo said:
Perfection is not something that any of us can achieve in this lifetime. Attempting to attain perfection is futile and can lead to enormos disappointment and feelings of failure and in some cases serious illness. I was determined to be a perfect parent at one point and I really thought I wasn’t good enough if I wasn;t a perfect parent. I never failed to be disappointed with myself and my self esteem suffered and I did become ill. I have learned, the hard way, to let go a little and not to let every single thing annoy me.
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You are quite right. We as creatures will never achieve perfection in our life time. But what we — should never do is fall back on our imperfection as humans— to not strive to do the best we can to over–come our imperfections. We as christians are called to be and do the best we can—moreso as Catholics.

You apparently had set an unattainable goal–one of perfection–and learn the hard way to let go. But-- have you stopped trying to be a good parent–the best way you can.

This has never been about setting some unattainable goal. What has been discussed in this and other threads is within the scoped of what we as humans can accomplish—once we discard this dependency to rely on our humaness as an excuse.
 
Walking_Home said:
You are quite right. We as creatures will never achieve perfection in our life time. But what we — should never do is fall back on our imperfection as humans— to not strive to do the best we can to over–come our imperfections. We as christians are called to be and do the best we can—moreso as Catholics.

You apparently had set an unattainable goal–one of perfection–and learn the hard way to let go. But-- have you stopped trying to be a good parent–the best way you can.

This has never been about setting some unattainable goal. What has been discussed in this and other threads is within the scoped of what we as humans can accomplish—once we discard this dependency to rely on our humaness as an excuse.
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I certainly wouldn’t say I have stopped trying to be the best I can be but I am certainly not attempting to be perfect and I don’t expect those around me to be perfect either. But I certainly see others in a far better light then I see myself. I guess I have developed some of the grace to accept the things that I cannot change.
 
Linnyo said:
I certainly wouldn’t say I have stopped trying to be the best I can be but I am certainly not attempting to be perfect and I don’t expect those around me to be perfect either. But I certainly see others in a far better light then I see myself. I guess I have developed some of the grace to accept the things that I cannot change.
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I cannot change the moon or the sun from rising—but if we did not have the capability of helping people thru various methods to see things differently–to help them change—might as well pack it in as christians and Catholics.
 
Linnyo said:
Why do some people here get so worried about the little things at church? 🤷 Does it really matter if we are holding hands, not holding hands, singing contemporary praise songs or traditional hymns, kneeling too much or too little? As long as we are not intentionally being disrespectful and as long as we are doing our best to do as Jesus would want us to do then we are good with God. I really think some people here come across as overly pious and self-righteous and it is a real shame. In fact, posts like these just clutter the forums. We are told not to worry about tomorrow because tomorrow will take care of itself. Think about how God feeds the sparrows. We have no need to worry about the little things. Relax and enjoy being in the grace of God:)
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Is it wrong to want perfection for God?

Does God deserve shoddy Liturgy? In fact does He deserve second rate gifts?

Is His gift of Creation to us a second rate gift?

Is His gift of himself in the Eucharist less than what He could give us?

After all we have been told “Be perfect just as your Heavenly Father is perfect.”

I would prefer to purchase the real deal than to purchase from the dollar store.
 
What?

Does God want us to make judgements about how people are sitting?

Does He want us to be so focussed on looking for the faults that we don’t see Him in the Eucharist?

Does He want us to put our personal preferences before Him?

Does He want us to think that we can be perfect by performing certain works?

You must be joking because I thought God wanted us to love Him and to love our neighbours.

What was it He said about planks and specks?
Fergal said:
Is it wrong to want perfection for God?

Does God deserve shoddy Liturgy? In fact does He deserve second rate gifts?

Is His gift of Creation to us a second rate gift?

Is His gift of himself in the Eucharist less than what He could give us?

After all we have been told “Be perfect just as your Heavenly Father is perfect.”

I would prefer to purchase the real deal than to purchase from the dollar store.
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Walking_Home, I agree that we need to strive for perfection in this life, to be like Christ Our Lord. I agree that we shouldn’t accept little imperfections in ourselves, although I suspect that many Christians live in defeated misery because they see only their imperfections instead of Christ in themselves. They lack the faith to believe that Jesus IS making them perfect, but it won’t happen overnight.

What I think is the issue on CAF is “how far should we go to help others achieve perfection?”

E.g., If we see someone chatting before Mass, and we consider that disrespectful of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, are we doing the right thing to speak to them and ask them to please stop chatting?

Or is this something that should be the responsibility of the priest; should we ask him to please speak to the chatterers?

Should we just pray for the chatterers while we move to another part of the sanctuary so that we are not personally distracted?

Should we come onto a online forum and discuss our frustrations with the chatterers hoping that they will get the message and stop chatting?

I lean towards allowing the Holy Spirit to convict His people, trusting that the priest will discipline His people, and humbling myself to pray for His people.
 
Cat said:
Walking_Home, I agree that we need to strive for perfection in this life, to be like Christ Our Lord. I agree that we shouldn’t accept little imperfections in ourselves, although I suspect that many Christians live in defeated misery because they see only their imperfections instead of Christ in themselves. They lack the faith to believe that Jesus IS making them perfect, but it won’t happen overnight.

What I think is the issue on CAF is “how far should we go to help others achieve perfection?”

E.g., If we see someone chatting before Mass, and we consider that disrespectful of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, are we doing the right thing to speak to them and ask them to please stop chatting?

Or is this something that should be the responsibility of the priest; should we ask him to please speak to the chatterers?

Should we just pray for the chatterers while we move to another part of the sanctuary so that we are not personally distracted?

Should we come onto a online forum and discuss our frustrations with the chatterers hoping that they will get the message and stop chatting?

I lean towards allowing the Holy Spirit to convict His people, trusting that the priest will discipline His people, and humbling myself to pray for His people.
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It is not a lack of faith—But the correct understanding --that He does not do it with out us. We co-operate with His grace in walking the path to him.

Think of it this way—if you saw a child walking into traffic—would you stand there and yell for the child’s parent to stop the child (if the parent is close enough) before the child gets run over or would you do your best to reach the child before the child gets hit.

It is an easy way out for us to pass the buck and wash our hands of our responsibilities.
 
Linnyo said:
What?

Does God want us to make judgements about how people are sitting?

Does He want us to be so focussed on looking for the faults that we don’t see Him in the Eucharist?

Does He want us to put our personal preferences before Him?

Does He want us to think that we can be perfect by performing certain works?

You must be joking because I thought God wanted us to love Him and to love our neighbours.

What was it He said about planks and specks?
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If we start using the planks and specks — to mean no one can help correct the actions of others–we might as well tie the world with a bow and hand it over to Satan.

After all–we are all sinful creatures—therefore non are worthy of correcting and stopping sin. The world will truly become Satan’s kingdom.
 
My point was that some of the things that people are continuously criticising are not really sins but rather personal preferences.
Walking_Home said:
If we start using the planks and specks — to mean no one can help correct the actions of others–we might as well tie the world with a bow and hand it over to Satan.

After all–we are all sinful creatures—therefore non are worthy of correcting and stopping sin. The world will truly become Satan’s kingdom.
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Cat said:
If a person feels compelled to express love by correcting someone’s behavior because they see it as a “big thing,” and their motive is TRULY love for God and the other person, not self-love that demands a quiet, distraction-free sanctuary–then I believe that the person’s great loving heart will achieve a good thing, and the person who is spoken to will not be offended by the corrective words, but rather, will be built up in the Lord and feel more connected with the sister or brother who corrected him/her.
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Thank you, Cat. In my opinion, I believe you have answered it very well.

One of the great Saints is St. Therese - the One who did little things for the love of God.

So, what the topics [talking above love and faith - that might be in Spiritual forum] should be like for the forum “The Eucharist, Mass, baptism, confession, abuses, Vatican rules”? 🙂
 
I agree with the OP,and I don’t think this forum is the worst offender by far.
What really worries me is that before I started reading posts on these forums I used to go to Mass and had no problem concentrating on the prayer and sacrifice of the Eucharist. But since coming across the many complaints that people have about holding hands, guitars at Mass, Mozart at Mass, etc etc I have started looking out for these so-called abuses! I recently attended Mass in a foreign country and was taken aback by someone grabbing my hand during the Our Father but it really should not have mattered! For me, it is the little gripes that prevent me from being there fully in the Mass, not the little things themselves.
 
Something that I think would truly make a difference in what we notice and fret over is whether or not we KNOW the people in our Mass.

When we don’t know people, they are just bodies to us, much like the unreal characters on TV. Then it’s easy to notice things that they do wrong and fret about it and assume the worse of these people.

But when we know them, we tend not to notice little things like arm positions or dress. And if we DO notice something off-kilter, since we KNOW the person and are friends or acquaintances with them, we can feel a whole lot more comfortable speaking to them after Mass or later in the week and sharing with them our problems with their action.

And since they know US, they will be more comfortable talking to us and not getting mad or upset or huffy or indignant…

If you KNEW the people in your Mass, you would know who just went through a tragedy and that this is the reason they are “cuddling.” They aren’t making out, they’re just trying to make it through one day at a time in their grief.

Or you would KNOW that the person raising their hands was recently gloriously converted to the Catholic Church from a Pentecostal background and that to them, raising hands is the way to express reverence and awe to the Lord. They aren’t doing it to call attention to themselves at all. And since there is nothing in the rubrics forbidding it, they have the freedom to do this, even if it irritates you.

Or you would KNOW that the man who keeps twitching and wiggling and making noise has Tourette’s and can’t help it. (We have a gentleman in our parish with Tourettes.)

Or you would KNOW that someone is going through a divorce and is really struggling with their faith in God, and that’s why they aren’t joining in with the responses or singing, and why they are just standing there looking uipset. They are going through hell on earth, and their body and face shows it. THIS person needs a hug and a kind word after the Mass, and Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament wants YOU to be the one to give this hug and kind word–softly, in hushed tones so as not to disturb those who are praying.

Do you get the idea?

So we should start getting to KNOW each other. Outside of Mass is fine! Much more practical. But we should do it. It would help all of us to be more considerate of each other in the Mass.

I was a member of several Protestant churches over the years. I really dislike rock music, and in the churches where I didn’t know anyone, I found the rock music extremely grating. But in the churches where I KNEW all the people, including the musicians, I didn’t mind the rock music. It’s easier to tolerate personal distractions if you love the person who is distracting you. And if they are truly doing something “wrong,” it’s easier to correct them.
 
That made lots of sense 👍
Cat said:
Something that I think would truly make a difference in what we notice and fret over is whether or not we KNOW the people in our Mass.

When we don’t know people, they are just bodies to us, much like the unreal characters on TV. Then it’s easy to notice things that they do wrong and fret about it and assume the worse of these people.

But when we know them, we tend not to notice little things like arm positions or dress. And if we DO notice something off-kilter, since we KNOW the person and are friends or acquaintances with them, we can feel a whole lot more comfortable speaking to them after Mass or later in the week and sharing with them our problems with their action.

And since they know US, they will be more comfortable talking to us and not getting mad or upset or huffy or indignant…

If you KNEW the people in your Mass, you would know who just went through a tragedy and that this is the reason they are “cuddling.” They aren’t making out, they’re just trying to make it through one day at a time in their grief.

Or you would KNOW that the person raising their hands was recently gloriously converted to the Catholic Church from a Pentecostal background and that to them, raising hands is the way to express reverence and awe to the Lord. They aren’t doing it to call attention to themselves at all. And since there is nothing in the rubrics forbidding it, they have the freedom to do this, even if it irritates you.

Or you would KNOW that the man who keeps twitching and wiggling and making noise has Tourette’s and can’t help it. (We have a gentleman in our parish with Tourettes.)

Or you would KNOW that someone is going through a divorce and is really struggling with their faith in God, and that’s why they aren’t joining in with the responses or singing, and why they are just standing there looking uipset. They are going through hell on earth, and their body and face shows it. THIS person needs a hug and a kind word after the Mass, and Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament wants YOU to be the one to give this hug and kind word–softly, in hushed tones so as not to disturb those who are praying.

Do you get the idea?

So we should start getting to KNOW each other. Outside of Mass is fine! Much more practical. But we should do it. It would help all of us to be more considerate of each other in the Mass.

I was a member of several Protestant churches over the years. I really dislike rock music, and in the churches where I didn’t know anyone, I found the rock music extremely grating. But in the churches where I KNEW all the people, including the musicians, I didn’t mind the rock music. It’s easier to tolerate personal distractions if you love the person who is distracting you. And if they are truly doing something “wrong,” it’s easier to correct them.
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Cat said:
Do you get the idea?

So we should start getting to KNOW each other. Outside of Mass is fine! Much more practical. But we should do it. It would help all of us to be more considerate of each other in the Mass.
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well advice, Cat. Thanks!
When you said you didn’t like Rock at some of the protestant church you attended, you might know why there are some people who are concerned about their churches become a protestant church.
To all readers:
Anyhow, In the same way, we, on this VERY forum, should KNOW the other members of this forum their reasons, their questions, their concerns - before jumping on them why they ASK such and such questions, or why they don’t like to be asked such and such things.

How do we know people online if we don’t ASK or we don’t LISTEN to each other?

It is getting clearer when we discuss nicely, isn’t it? 😉
 
Hey, everyone! I spent 47 years in evangelical Protestant churches. Because I play the piano, I spent time in many mainline denoms as well, and even in some Pentecostal and non-denom churches.

So I know my Protestant churches!

I’ve only been Catholic a few years, so maybe I haven’t seen a big enough sampling of Catholic Churches. But I’ve attended Masses in three states, probably around two dozen parishes.

And here is my pronouncement–most Catholic Masses are in no danger whatsoever of becoming Protestant worship services!

What seems incredibly liberal to many of you Catholics is extremely staid and conservative and ANCIENT and mysterious and reverent to the point of ritualistic to Protestants.

You say something in your Mass is irreverent; Protestants would look at you and say, “I thought it seemed quite worshipful.”

You say Haugen and Haas sound modern and discordant; Protestants would look at you and say, “That’s OLDIE music! You ought to come to my church and hear the rock band!”

etc. Enough examples. Hopefully you get the idea.

So don’t worry too much, OK? I’m not suggesting that you visit a few Protestant evangelical churches, but if you did, you would see that your most modern, liberal Mass bears NO resemblance to most Protestant worship services. You have nothing to fear.

Catholic Masses and Protestant worship services are miles and miles and light years apart.

You are worrying for nothing.

Besides, in even the most “modern” Mass, Catholics have something that NO Protestants have–Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament–the Eucharist! As long as Catholics have Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, Mass will never become a Protestant worship service.

If you still want to devote time to worry, how about worrying about your sins? I’ve done that a lot lately. Not pleasant.
 
Cat said:
If you still want to devote time to worry, how about worrying about your sins? I’ve done that a lot lately. Not pleasant.
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God doesn’t say you live for only yourself.
We are to worry for our own sins and for others.
That’s what exactly the Rosary and Divine Mercy prayers are focusing on.
 
Cat said:
It’s easier to tolerate personal distractions if you love the person who is distracting you. And if they are truly doing something “wrong,” it’s easier to correct them.
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It is sort of like living life in marriage. You may notice a lot of “little things” about your partner which trouble or annoy you, initially. If you let these eat you up and try perpetually to make the other person just like you want them to be, the relationship isn’t going to last very long. If, on the other hand, you love the person above all despite these things, then you can come to tolerate that which must be overlooked or given patient time to overcome; as well as share in genuine unity of love and honest concern for the other, along with developing a real appreciation of his situation and needs, rather than regression to mere nagging critique of those things which you are concerned about. Ultimately, this charitible approach of understanding and shared life will serve for the spouse’s betterment, your own well being, and the overall health of the relationship. Building this basis will, in turn, strengthen the two to get through times of more serious concern and “big” issues which present themselves.
 
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