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Linnyo
Guest
Another good point!
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
We worry about little things because allowing little things to go unchallenged conditions us to error.
But certainly it is never good to become obsessed with anything.
If you feel something is in error, address it in a Christian manner, and then let it go. Perhaps you are being a little picky, and, if so, pray that you can focus on something else.
I have definitely given a look or “shushed” a loud or extended conversation, but how far you go, or how to say something definitely varies with the situation.
In most cases it is best to try to ignore little things, unless they become the norm, rather than an ocasssional slip.
Lux
But certainly it is never good to become obsessed with anything.
If you feel something is in error, address it in a Christian manner, and then let it go. Perhaps you are being a little picky, and, if so, pray that you can focus on something else.
I have definitely given a look or “shushed” a loud or extended conversation, but how far you go, or how to say something definitely varies with the situation.
In most cases it is best to try to ignore little things, unless they become the norm, rather than an ocasssional slip.
Lux
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Walking_Home
Guest
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Walking_Home
Guest
Yes–marriage includes tolerance–but it also includes change. It is part of learning to live with each other and sharing a life together. If one spouse is used to leaving his/her clothes scattered all over–should he/she expected the other to be “charitable” and “tolerate” that behavior or as part of having a loving relationship-- learns to change and picks up after him/herself. This is a minor thing—but it is part of being considerate toward his/her spouse.
How we handle the “minor issues” many times is a reflection of how we handle the “big issues”.
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Linnyo
Guest
I would tend to disagree that sin is a personal preference. We are born with original sin not through our choice but through the choice of our ancestors, Adam and Eve. Pride was the sin of whhich they were guilty. Most people want to do what is right so that is their personal preference. However we are human and are easily distracted from doing what is right.
I would still consider that as long as we are doing our best to get it right, to show reverence to God then we are doing ok. As one of the posters above mentioned there may be good reasons why people do what they do and we may well be unaware of them. I think it is well within our capability to teach our young how to show reverence and respect in church (and outwith of course) and that is what we should do. Priests are able to talk about behaviour in church and frequently do. Therefore unless something is very bad indeed then we should do our utmost not to judge other people.
An example might be that of using the bathroom during Mass. To me this is completely unacceptable. However, someone I know has not got the power to wait until after Mass. He just can’t. He gets withering glares from other parishioners who seem to think that he is not showing the right level of reverence. Another time might be when I wasn’t kneeling at Mass. Disgraceful! I have bursitis in my knees and if I knelt then I would have had excruciating pain and be unable to get back up without a great deal of pain and effort. I still think people should kneel and when my knees are fine then I also kneel.Other things people complain about - talking at the end - when people come and talk to me then, yes I probably do reply out of politeness whilst directing myself towards the door. It’s great to say wait until you are outside but you have to get out without being stopped by chatterers. However, if you keep to a very low whisper and direct towards the door, you can usually get the message across without any problem.
The way in which people sit is really not cause for concern unless they are being blatantly revealing or something ridiculous. They may choose to sit in a particular way because they have aches after cutting the hedge or playing squash. They may be rather tall and find the pews somewhat small for them. They may be sitting on the squeaky pew and be trying their hardest not to cause a disturbance by moving in their seat.
As for music. a parish may not have an organist but they might have a great number of capable musicians. There may not be anybody confident in leading unaccompanied singing. On the other hand they may have a priest who excels in singing and enjoys leading in Gregorian chants.
A church has to use the gifts of the parishioners whether it be in houskeeping, gardening, serving or in music.
C
chicago
Guest
There is also something about the way in which we approach others with our concerns. And adults don’t typically respond in a positive manner to being treated like children or getting simplistically talked down to authoritatively. A certain showing of respect and allowance for them to make up their own minds often goes a lot farther in elicting the kind of action that one would wish, ultimately.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Original sin is not our personal preference—but we are cleanse thru baptism. Once we reach the age of reason—the sin we commit is our own—by choice.
What is really amazing and is coming thru the various discussions is the emphasis on how because we are human it would take a tremendous amount of effort to change even a small part of our behavior.
I am not advocating throttling anyone in church for the way they sit or for having their arm dangling down the pack of the pew. First we teach by example and that calls for change in us if need be and then depending on the situation using other measures.
There is nothing wrong if at times --we take the initiative. If there are some people having a social gathering while you and/or others are trying to pray—they is nothing wrong by whispering to them that they are creating a distraction. If it is a wide spread practice–the priest also has the responsibility of addressing the situation.
It is a joint effort to bring sacredness to the house of God.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Then—I am not sure what type of adults our society is producing. Adults that cannot handle direction. That direction and counsel is seen as being treated like children. How on earth do these adults handle being out in the workforce. Do they get offended when they receive direction in their workplace. Do they not give direction and counsel to others for fear of offending them.
Yes --respect is important—and I am not advocating talking down to anyone. We do have the ability of giving direction and counsel to someone — in a respectful manner.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
If someone is not in a position of authority, they may properly make suggestions, but not act with authority they don’t possess.
Lux
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Walking_Home
Guest
Bingo. If co-worker is doing something which was not his or the companys best interest — do I help him by giving direction/counseling or let it go. Let it go – to where the consequences of his actions come to the attention of the higher up. How appreciative would the co-worker be if he found out I could have helped–yet didn’t – which then led to it coming to the attention of his superior.
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Walking_Home
Guest
One more thing. In the workplace—in many instances the majority of the training comes from our co-workers and not from the boss. They teach us procedures and the ins and outs of learning to work within the workplace community.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
Yes, in some places this is done with the aproval of the boss.
It is not the same as taking it into yoour own hands to correct a fellow parishioner.
Lux
It is not the same as taking it into yoour own hands to correct a fellow parishioner.
Lux
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Walking_Home
Guest
Maybe you haven’t had to much experience with being in the workforce. Part of working together is looking out for each other. If we care about our co–worker — we help so situations don’t get out of hand to where the boss has to take action.
H
Hlafdige
Guest
It matters because our way of worship shapes what we believe as well as vice versa (“lex orandi, lex credendi”).Why do some people here get so worried about the little things at church?Does it really matter if we are holding hands, not holding hands, singing contemporary praise songs or traditional hymns, kneeling too much or too little?
Protestant church entrepreneurs who make big business of wresting church property from people who sacrificed to found and build a faith community, devoted their time to it and grew old in it, know this very well. They have made a science of “transitioning” communities to health-and-wealth-gospel, fluff-and-entertainment venues by first changing worship styles with the help of an insider clique and keeping the transition goals a secret from the community at large. Example:
pastors.com/RWMT/article.asp?ArtID=4811
The most common argument is “these issues are non-essentials, why can’t you be selfless enough to defer to the tastes of the young and secular whom we are trying to reach?” And like the real mother in the story of Solomon’s judgment, the most genuinely committed are usually the first persuaded to give in out of charity, even if it means losing what is precious to them.
Reverence matters. Having the Mass centered on God rather than ourselves matters. And expressing that in ways that our bodies and our senses participate in, is part and parcel of the Catholic belief that the body matters as well as the spirit.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
I’ve worked in big and small offices. Again it is not the same as taking it into your own hands to correct a fellow parishioner. Also, as was said in many different ways, “You catch more bees with honey”
Lux
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Yes, and you can get STUNG catching those bees with honey, too.
I think that perhaps one can sum it up best with "one man’s is another man’s ".
IOW–and goodness I have seen this throughout my life, being of the ‘boomer’ generation and raising my gen X/Y children – we have become a society demanding that people ‘get a thicker skin’ while our OWN skin becomes more and more tender.
We ‘dish it out’ but we ‘don’t want to take it’. We can (and do, look at just about any pronouncement from the USCCB as a whole, let alone secular ‘mainstream’ media) couch our observations in the vaguest, broadest, most innocuous of terms, prefacing with ’ in my opinion’, ‘this may be’, and ending with all sorts of positive ‘spins’. . .and you can bet your life that there will be people SCREAMING that they have been ‘maligned, disrespected, trodden on and marginalized by bigoted, rigid, inflexible, punitive, HYPOCRITES’.
It is no wonder that in the past 40 years fewer and fewer people become ‘involved’ in anything. Those who DO usually favor an ‘extremist’ point of view (at least in the eyes of those who oppose that view), and thus, more and more we are hearing POLEMICS from people who argue black OR white, not ‘black, white, and gray’.
Of course, the end result is that almost any ‘discussion’ is or will be hijacked into presentations of two polar ‘opposite’ opinions. Those ‘in the middle’ will either remain silent, or will criticize either or both ‘extreme’, and gradually, apathetically, allow the NOISIER GROUP to ‘have its way’. After all, isn’t that more ‘tolerant?’
But look what that strategy has cost. Can you honestly think of anything in the last 40 years which has ‘defaulted’ into being accepted by society which is GOOD? (Civil rights is not part of that case. Civil rights was not a ‘default’).
Sky high divorce (no fault). Unwed mothers and fathers. Child abuse. Prostitution. Rampant consumerism/materialism. Foul language. Pornography. Violence.
These things have come about because many are too tired, too apathetic, to care about it until it hits in ‘their backyard’. They’re too frightened to ‘speak out’ to the teenagers shrieking obscenities, lest they become targets. Too ‘loving’ to speak out about ACTIONS (promiscuity, sexual immorality) lest they be seen as INTOLERANT. Too apathetic to speak out of their own faith, in a culture where relativism and indifferentism are prized, and ‘faith’ can only be ‘a personal thing’, not something to which all should pray and strive.
May God help us.
I think that perhaps one can sum it up best with "one man’s is another man’s ".
IOW–and goodness I have seen this throughout my life, being of the ‘boomer’ generation and raising my gen X/Y children – we have become a society demanding that people ‘get a thicker skin’ while our OWN skin becomes more and more tender.
We ‘dish it out’ but we ‘don’t want to take it’. We can (and do, look at just about any pronouncement from the USCCB as a whole, let alone secular ‘mainstream’ media) couch our observations in the vaguest, broadest, most innocuous of terms, prefacing with ’ in my opinion’, ‘this may be’, and ending with all sorts of positive ‘spins’. . .and you can bet your life that there will be people SCREAMING that they have been ‘maligned, disrespected, trodden on and marginalized by bigoted, rigid, inflexible, punitive, HYPOCRITES’.
It is no wonder that in the past 40 years fewer and fewer people become ‘involved’ in anything. Those who DO usually favor an ‘extremist’ point of view (at least in the eyes of those who oppose that view), and thus, more and more we are hearing POLEMICS from people who argue black OR white, not ‘black, white, and gray’.
Of course, the end result is that almost any ‘discussion’ is or will be hijacked into presentations of two polar ‘opposite’ opinions. Those ‘in the middle’ will either remain silent, or will criticize either or both ‘extreme’, and gradually, apathetically, allow the NOISIER GROUP to ‘have its way’. After all, isn’t that more ‘tolerant?’
But look what that strategy has cost. Can you honestly think of anything in the last 40 years which has ‘defaulted’ into being accepted by society which is GOOD? (Civil rights is not part of that case. Civil rights was not a ‘default’).
Sky high divorce (no fault). Unwed mothers and fathers. Child abuse. Prostitution. Rampant consumerism/materialism. Foul language. Pornography. Violence.
These things have come about because many are too tired, too apathetic, to care about it until it hits in ‘their backyard’. They’re too frightened to ‘speak out’ to the teenagers shrieking obscenities, lest they become targets. Too ‘loving’ to speak out about ACTIONS (promiscuity, sexual immorality) lest they be seen as INTOLERANT. Too apathetic to speak out of their own faith, in a culture where relativism and indifferentism are prized, and ‘faith’ can only be ‘a personal thing’, not something to which all should pray and strive.
May God help us.
F
Ferdy_000
Guest
Hi, I’m new to this forum and I saw this thread and I had to chime in.
I used to think like you about how we as Catholics take everything too seriously, and like you I thought “what’s the big deal…as long as we respect each in our walk”…but let me tell you we have been fooled my friend into that relavistic thinking. I mean that in today’s society we all offer our opinions and no one’s seem to be wrong . I think it’s in this thinking we lose our identity, especially when it comes to the Catholic Church. Neither of us are the pope’s in our own church, and consequently neither of us has a say in making the rules, but through humility we submit ourselves to them. I do things now out of obedience to the Church simply because it forms unity, because when you talk about disunity in actions ( albeit “little things”) it starts division and that I recall how most Protestant thinking started.
Anyway…that’s my two cents…except read this and it will explain things a little more clearer. Peace to you .
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901fea1.asp
I used to think like you about how we as Catholics take everything too seriously, and like you I thought “what’s the big deal…as long as we respect each in our walk”…but let me tell you we have been fooled my friend into that relavistic thinking. I mean that in today’s society we all offer our opinions and no one’s seem to be wrong . I think it’s in this thinking we lose our identity, especially when it comes to the Catholic Church. Neither of us are the pope’s in our own church, and consequently neither of us has a say in making the rules, but through humility we submit ourselves to them. I do things now out of obedience to the Church simply because it forms unity, because when you talk about disunity in actions ( albeit “little things”) it starts division and that I recall how most Protestant thinking started.
Anyway…that’s my two cents…except read this and it will explain things a little more clearer. Peace to you .
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901fea1.asp
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Linnyo
Guest
I wouldn’t suggest for a minute that we let bigger thins go like promiscuity or foul language. Whyever would you think that a thread about little things would be about big things. Of course there are things that are sinful and they do need to be addressed. The things that are not sinful is what this thread is about.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Think of it in terms of venial sins. They do not send us to hell—but it is still good for our souls to get them cleaned out and/or not get into the habit of giving in to them. The same principle applies to the “little issues”. One “little issue” added to another “little issue” added to etc.—it forms some baggage to incorporate into the Mass.
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Linnyo
Guest
But many of the things that irritate us are less than venial sins. However our annoyance at these things could easily lead us into venial sin i.e. getting unecesarilly annoyed, gossiping judging etc.
I didn’t mean to but I’ve pressed the quote button again. I’m not suggesting that you are sinning. It just won’t allow a copy and paste though.
I didn’t mean to but I’ve pressed the quote button again. I’m not suggesting that you are sinning. It just won’t allow a copy and paste though.
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