Little things

[water]

Julia, it’s not either-or; it’s both-and. Are you so sure that any one ‘criticizing’ has NOT already checked the ‘log’ in his/her eye? Remember, Ezechiel warns us that if we see a person who is sinning, and do not warn that person of the sin, we will also be responsible for that person’s spiritual ‘death’. ** One must look at the ‘whole’ picture**.

Thank you!

 

[juliamajor]

Whole picture- right- that way we can put things in perspective. besides we are talking about little things not sin. If i pray in the orans position am i really doing something detrimental to me ,my soul or my church?

 

[Linnyo]

Whole picture- right- that way we can put things in perspective. besides we are talking about little things not sin. If i pray in the orans position am i really doing something detrimental to me ,my soul or my church?

lol That would give people something to talk about! Try it and see if anybody reprimands you and ask them which commandment you are breaking? Ask them to tell you if in fact it is a sin because I would argue that it isn’t. That is unless it counts as pride because you are deliberately doing something out of the ordinary to draw attention to yourself.

 

[water]

Whole picture- right- that way we can put things in perspective. besides we are talking about little things not sin.

Aren’t we better off looking at the"log" in our own eye then looking at the"splinters’ of others? Being introspective is much better and more productive to your soul then being critical of others.we should seek our own perfection not seek to make others perfect.

I was wondering what “log” was as mentioned in your previous reply?
Was it sins or other non-sin-little thing?

Can anything we do that is not considered as non-sin thing?
hmm, I am puzzled at this, so please discuss with charity.

 

[juliamajor]

linnyo.I have done it and continue to do it- most people don’t say anything but the do laugh and make fun of me behind my back-so what.I close my eyes raise my hands picture the lord in front of me.Everbody fades away for those instances and It’s Jesus and me for a few seconds Besides it’s the position ancient Christians prayed and worshiped in symbolizing the the risen Christ showing his hands to the apostles.So there is meaning behind the madness.-I love the Scots!!

 

[water]

water, you have brought up an EXCELLENT point–culture!

The GIRM seems to make allowances for different culture. This is why so many statements include something about the local Church authority making the decision. Things like postures and musical instruments are left up to the Bishops, and he is free to make the decision based on his knowledge of the culture.

You’re absolutely right–in certain cultures, certain things would be considered rude that are are not rude in other cultures. I remember when my daughter went to Italy for a skating competition, she and the other skaters were told to not make a circle with their thumb and forefinger. We do this all the time in the U.S., and it means “good job.” Apparently it doesn’t mean that in Italy. It is an insult concerning a posterior portion of the human body.

I have a Puerto Rican friend who says that Masses in the U.S. are incredibly quiet and short compared to what she is used to. In Puerto Rico, there are different instruments (guitars and maracas and other Latin instruments, not European pianos and organs!), and the people clap during the singing. And during Communion, instead of proceeding to the front in orderly lines, they make a dash for the front. She said this is because they are all eager to receive the Lord, and it would be considered “rude” to wait patiently because it is irreverent to Him.

Now if we tried these things in our Mass in the U.S., I think a lot of the “traditionalists” would keep over! But in a way, I don’t blame them. This is the U.S., not Puerto Rico, and we have our own ideas of decorum and music in Mass. (Now if the Mass were for Puerto Ricans, that would be OK.)

For this reason, let’s allow those who raise their question. Only if we discuss with charity, we can help each other understand better.

CAF is viewed by people all over the world, and this mean we are not the only culture - well, the US itself is the little world.

 

[juliamajor]

Water- what I was implying is if we are so worried about the little things people do in church that seem disrespectful we are not paying attention to ourselves- and our own “little things” Self correction should be first and without knowing what goes on in anyones mind we shouldn’t second guess them .that doesn’t mean I don’t get annoyed with "little things " some people do.

 

[Walking_Home]

Oh my post has offended people and it really wasn’t meant to. I have been wondering about why people focus on little things for a long time and was just never sure where to put it. Water, I didn’t just look at yours and decide that I would pick on you. Honestly. I do just wonder at the reasons for getting het up over, what seems to me, as non-sins.

---

All those “little issues” detract. They detract from the Sense of the Sacred. We Catholics (and the Orthodox) have something greater–more precious than anything known on earth–The Holy Sacrifice of the Altar. Why blemish by our actions-- the Mass that offers us this most precious gift.

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20050707_instrlabor-xi-assembly_en.html

The Sense of the Sacred in the Eucharist
Nevertheless, responses coming from various countries note some deficiencies and shadows in the celebration of the Eucharist on the part of both the clergy and the faithful, which seem to have their origin in a weakened sense of the sacred in the Sacrament. Safeguarding the Sacrament’s sacred character basically depends on being aware that the Eucharist is a mystery and gift, whose remembrance requires signs and words corresponding to its nature as a sacrament.

Certain actions which challenge a sense of the sacred, often mentioned in the Lineamenta responses, can be of assistance in treating the subject, for example, a neglect by the celebrant and the ministers to use proper liturgical vestments and the participants’ lack of befitting dress for Mass; the use of profane music in Church; the tacit consent to eliminate certain liturgical gestures thought to be too traditional, such as genuflexion before the Blessed Sacrament; an inadequate catechesis for Communion in the hand and its improper distribution; a lack of reverence before, during and after the celebration of Holy Mass, not only by the laity but also the celebrant; the scant architectural and artistic quality of sacred buildings and sacred vessels; and instances of syncretism in integrating elements from other religions in the inculturation of liturgical forms.

All these negative realities, occurring more often in the Latin Liturgy than the Liturgies of the Eastern Churches, should not lead to great alarm, since they seem to be limited. Nevertheless, they ought to spur serious reflection on how to eliminate them and to ensure that the Eucharistic liturgies are places of praise, prayer, communion, listening, silence and adoration, out of **deep reverence **for the mystery of God, who is revealed in Christ under the elements of bread and wine, and out of the utter joy of feeling oneself a member of a community of the faithful reconciled with God the Father through the grace of the Holy Spirit. The Eucharist is the most sacred and highest form of prayer. It is the Great Prayer.

 

[water]

Water- what I was implying is if we are so worried about the little things people do in church that seem disrespectful we are not paying attention to ourselves- and our own “little things” **Self correction should be first and without knowing what goes on in anyones mind we shouldn’t second guess them **.that doesn’t mean I don’t get annoyed with "little things " some people do.

Yes, I do understand from your point of view and I can’t say anything wrong about it. For the same reason, when “Tantum ergo” posted his/her thought, I could see his reasoning:

J Are you so sure that any one ‘criticizing’ has NOT already checked the ‘log’ in his/her eye?

Note that the word “criticizing” is used in single quote by Tantum.

 

[Linnyo]

The strange thing about reverence is that whilst it is essential, it is very subjective. There are rules for some things and not for others. Some things are sins whilst others aren’t. For the things that there aren’t rules for and that are obviously not sins, subjectivity is an issue. These things are not only subject to peoples opinion but also to cultural norms and upbringing. Since we don’t all have the same background, there will be discrepancies. Therefor we can talk about reverance but what is reverence? It cannot be exactly defined. What I consider to be reverent, you may not or vica versa.

---

All those “little issues” detract. They detract from the Sense of the Sacred. We Catholics (and the Orthodox) have something greater–more precious than anything known on earth–The Holy Sacrifice of the Altar. Why blemish by our actions-- the Mass that offers us this most precious gift.

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20050707_instrlabor-xi-assembly_en.html

The Sense of the Sacred in the Eucharist
Nevertheless, responses coming from various countries note some deficiencies and shadows in the celebration of the Eucharist on the part of both the clergy and the faithful, which seem to have their origin in a weakened sense of the sacred in the Sacrament. Safeguarding the Sacrament’s sacred character basically depends on being aware that the Eucharist is a mystery and gift, whose remembrance requires signs and words corresponding to its nature as a sacrament.

Certain actions which challenge a sense of the sacred, often mentioned in the Lineamenta responses, can be of assistance in treating the subject, for example, a neglect by the celebrant and the ministers to use proper liturgical vestments and the participants’ lack of befitting dress for Mass; the use of profane music in Church; the tacit consent to eliminate certain liturgical gestures thought to be too traditional, such as genuflexion before the Blessed Sacrament; an inadequate catechesis for Communion in the hand and its improper distribution; a lack of reverence before, during and after the celebration of Holy Mass, not only by the laity but also the celebrant; the scant architectural and artistic quality of sacred buildings and sacred vessels; and instances of syncretism in integrating elements from other religions in the inculturation of liturgical forms.

All these negative realities, occurring more often in the Latin Liturgy than the Liturgies of the Eastern Churches, should not lead to great alarm, since they seem to be limited. Nevertheless, they ought to spur serious reflection on how to eliminate them and to ensure that the Eucharistic liturgies are places of praise, prayer, communion, listening, silence and adoration, out of **deep reverence **for the mystery of God, who is revealed in Christ under the elements of bread and wine, and out of the utter joy of feeling oneself a member of a community of the faithful reconciled with God the Father through the grace of the Holy Spirit. The Eucharist is the most sacred and highest form of prayer. It is the Great Prayer.

 

[Walking_Home]

The strange thing about reverence is that whilst it is essential, it is very subjective. There are rules for some things and not for others. Some things are sins whilst others aren’t. For the things that there aren’t rules for and that are obviously not sins, subjectivity is an issue. These things are not only subject to peoples opinion but also to cultural norms and upbringing. Since we don’t all have the same background, there will be discrepancies. Therefor we can talk about reverance but what is reverence? It cannot be exactly defined. What I consider to be reverent, you may not or vica versa.

---

One sad side of human nature—we always seem to come up with an excuse.

 

[Linnyo]

---

One sad side of human nature—we always seem to come up with an excuse.

lol - it may be that I am more reverent than you for all you know - you seem to think it is me making excuses!

 

[Walking_Home]

lol - it may be that I am more reverent than you for all you know - you seem to think it is me making excuses!

---

You might well be—but I am not the one using subjectivism --to make allowances for peoples behavior.

 

[chicago]

---

You might well be—but I am not the one using subjectivism --to make allowances for peoples behavior.

I think that there is room for recognition of legitimate subjectivity without falling into an error of subjectivism.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think that there is room for recognition of legitimate subjectivity without falling into an error of subjectivism.

---

But then–the subjectivity of falling into error — would be subjective to what error is considered to be. Once the seed of subjectivism is planted --it just feeds on itself --turning right vs. wrong, correct vs. incorrect etc --into a subjective free for all where there is no longer a definition of what error is.

 

[chicago]

---

But then–the subjectivity of falling into error — would be subjective to what error is considered to be. Once the seed of subjectivism is planted --it just feeds on itself --turning right vs. wrong, correct vs. incorrect etc --into a subjective free for all where there is no longer a definition of what error is.

Well, for once we may actually agree. I think you have hit upon something. However, the key question then remains one of neither becoming so lax as to allow everything to be subjectivized nor so rigid as to insist that everything is error. In this sense, it might be, ironically, said that “subjectivism” can actually cut to both extremes of interpretation.

 

[Walking_Home]

Well, for once we may actually agree. I think you have hit upon something. However, the key question then remains one of neither becoming so lax as to allow everything to be subjectivized nor so rigid as to insist that everything is error. In this sense, it might be, ironically, said that “subjectivism” can actually cut to both extremes of interpretation.

---

Then again–when one is riding the train of subjectivism – it still mars where the extreme is. We can bring in other elements to help in discerning the extreme --for example respect, common sense, a sense of the sacred, self control, etc —but then subjectivism would eat away at those elements too. To those who --subjectivity has become an avenue to more or less “do their own thing” --will alway have the option manipulating what they consider extreme --on the basis of --well people are being too rigid.

 

[chicago]

---

Then again–when one is riding the train of subjectivism – it still mars where the extreme is. We can bring in other elements to help in discerning the extreme --for example respect, common sense, a sense of the sacred, self control, etc —but then subjectivism would eat away at those elements too. To those who --subjectivity has become an avenue to more or less “do their own thing” --will alway have the option manipulating what they consider extreme --on the basis of --well people are being too rigid.

It’s just too tempting to not join in and add a little color, also!

Or, it might be said, on the basis of - well people are being too lax. For in some sense, even those who insist upon other more demanding aspects of “respect, common sense, a sense of the sacred, self control, etc” are making their judgement on a degree of subjective tastes and personal concerns.

 

[Walking_Home]

It’s just too tempting to not join in and add a little color, also!

Or, it might be said, on the basis of - well people are being too lax. For in some sense, even those who insist upon other more demanding aspects of “respect, common sense, a sense of the sacred, self control, etc” are making their judgement on a degree of subjective tastes and personal concerns.

---

Yes it could work both ways—yet the very fact that we are before someone greater than ourselves in Mass should put our subjective tastes and personal concerns into perspective. Do we carry the SELF thru the church doors or do we leave the SELF behind for that one hr. and give Him worship thru mind --body–and spirit.

 

[chicago]

---

Yes it could work both ways—yet the very fact that we are before someone greater than ourselves in Mass should put our subjective tastes and personal concerns into perspective. Do we carry the SELF thru the church doors or do we leave the SELF behind for that one hr. and give Him worship thru mind --body–and spirit.

I don’t think that we ever really leave the SELF behind. Rather, we bring the SELF along and offer it, honestly, wherever it may be.