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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
How can you claim this?
If the old norms apply, we would still be celebrating the Tridentine Mass.
Lux
- Status
If the old norms apply, we would still be celebrating the Tridentine Mass.
Lux
W
Walking_Home
Guest
A GIRM once authorized by Rome supercedes the previous GIRM—Not each and every previous instruction issued by Rome. Can you show where in the GIRM it is stated that we can hold hands. Where in the GIRM is the laity instructed to hold hands.
The GIRM does not contain the instruction authorizing the hand-holding–because Rome has not withdrawn the previous instruction.
C
Cat
Guest
Walking_Home and others who seem to be advocating a more “proactive” charitable approach to correction of “bad” Mass behaviors–may I ask you a few questions? I assure you that I am not being sarcastic or critical or trying to undermine you. I honestly want to know your answers to my questions.
How have you handled “bad” Mass behavior in the past? Have you really approached people, even if you didn’t know them, and asked them to please desist from a certain behavior?
If so, how did it go? Did they receive your “fraternal correction” graciously, and agree to stop the behavior? Or did they get upset?
If you haven’t actually approached a miscreant before, do you plan to use this approach in the future when someone commits an action which distracts you or you consider irreverent? You will actually approach them after Mass and ask them to please desist from their behavior.
Finally, do you truly believe that you will have success in stopping bad Mass behaviors by approaching strangers and asking them to please desist? Or is this just a theory of yours? As I asked before, have you actually tried this and did it actually bring about good results?
Again, I’m not asking to taunt you or trick you. I honestly want to try to see if this is your regular approach and if it actually works in real life. I will admit that I am extremely skeptical, but I am willing to admit that I am utterly wrong if you can tell me that this pro-active approach really works and brings about good in the Mass.
Thanks.
How have you handled “bad” Mass behavior in the past? Have you really approached people, even if you didn’t know them, and asked them to please desist from a certain behavior?
If so, how did it go? Did they receive your “fraternal correction” graciously, and agree to stop the behavior? Or did they get upset?
If you haven’t actually approached a miscreant before, do you plan to use this approach in the future when someone commits an action which distracts you or you consider irreverent? You will actually approach them after Mass and ask them to please desist from their behavior.
Finally, do you truly believe that you will have success in stopping bad Mass behaviors by approaching strangers and asking them to please desist? Or is this just a theory of yours? As I asked before, have you actually tried this and did it actually bring about good results?
Again, I’m not asking to taunt you or trick you. I honestly want to try to see if this is your regular approach and if it actually works in real life. I will admit that I am extremely skeptical, but I am willing to admit that I am utterly wrong if you can tell me that this pro-active approach really works and brings about good in the Mass.
Thanks.
L
Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
The current GIRM supercedes all previous rubric instructions. You cannot pick and choose which instructions you would like to keep.
The current instructions for posture of the congregation are the norm, and you cannot claim that an instruction clarifying an older GIRM would be valid for the current GIRM. You can say anything you wish, but if you have no documentation, it is just another incorrect personal opinion.
Lux
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Walking_Home
Guest
So far twice—both dealing with chatty behavior. I did not yell at them or cause a commotion. One instance involved teens. All I did was discreetly raise my finger to my lips and one of them motioned ok. No problem–no commotion. The other time – they were older—somewhere in the 20’s. I gently tapped one of them on the shoulder–and just asked if they could be a bit quieter. He was very gracious–smiled and quieted down. No problem – no commotion.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Again an authorized GIRM supercedes the previous GIRM – not each and every instruction/directive issued by Rome.
I asked for you to provide where in the GIRM the laity are given the instruction to hold hands. You cannot can you–so you come back with what — a smoke screen.
W
water
Guest
I am not sure if I am considered as “advocating a more “proactive” charitable approach to correction of “bad” Mass behaviors”; however, your questions can be asked and/or answered by anyone. So, here I am to answer your question from my point of view.
If you ever search all my posts, you would see that this is only few times I have ever joined this particular forum, and my only first post about people sitting at mass.
My way to deal with it is to pray for them (as you mentioned in one of your posts, I believe) - I am not out to the church to look for people doing bad things and being misbehaved, etc . It is sometimes obvious that some people sit right in front of you and you don’t have a choice but to notice what they do right in front of you. Besides praying for them, I have never let it in my head after I am out of the Mass. Until recently, when I see those who are in charge at daily mass doing it, then I came to this Forum to ask about why they do it.
**
If you read this reply til the end, you will understand about where I am coming from.**
Again, method of praying is a better way for me to do. They are not distracting me for I know the reason why I am at the church.
I don’t believe correct them during the mass unless they do something really terrible wrong. A little prayer is offered to God to help them is what I normally do, and I can just go on with my focus on Mass.
Why do I think that what I do is the result of me doing it? Prayers have changed people for hundred of years. It is God who helps them change. It is His success, not mine.
**So, this is my daily approach to everything - praying. **
It is sad to know that when I first time ever posted a question in this forum, people right on jump to some conclusion that I went to mass to look for faults in people and that I should worry about myself.
I might’ve missed telling all of us here where I was from - what culture do I have? For instance, my question about arm relaxing on the pews is important to me because in my country, during mass, doing such things can be considered very rude. I emphasize “very rude”. Again, in my culture, even if you have a muscles on your arms, you would never sit like that in the church, you don’t even stand up and have both arms lean on the pew in front of you.
My mom was nearly becoming handicap; she couldn’t stand and kneel down too long , but when she attended mass, no one would notice she had any problem.
It is part of how we were raised back in Vietnam - be still and sit and stand straight up when we were at mass.
Now, after posting my question in this forum, I have learned that it is not like the way I have known and being raised in my own country, Vietnam.
So, I am wrong to say that it is rude to rest arm on the pews - I am living in different culture.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
It is not a smoke screen. Why not ask your Bishop if that old instruction will be enforced under the current rubrics?
Lux
C
Cat
Guest
water, you have brought up an EXCELLENT point–culture!
The GIRM seems to make allowances for different culture. This is why so many statements include something about the local Church authority making the decision. Things like postures and musical instruments are left up to the Bishops, and he is free to make the decision based on his knowledge of the culture.
You’re absolutely right–in certain cultures, certain things would be considered rude that are are not rude in other cultures. I remember when my daughter went to Italy for a skating competition, she and the other skaters were told to not make a circle with their thumb and forefinger. We do this all the time in the U.S., and it means “good job.” Apparently it doesn’t mean that in Italy. It is an insult concerning a posterior portion of the human body.
I have a Puerto Rican friend who says that Masses in the U.S. are incredibly quiet and short compared to what she is used to. In Puerto Rico, there are different instruments (guitars and maracas and other Latin instruments, not European pianos and organs!), and the people clap during the singing. And during Communion, instead of proceeding to the front in orderly lines, they make a dash for the front. She said this is because they are all eager to receive the Lord, and it would be considered “rude” to wait patiently because it is irreverent to Him.
Now if we tried these things in our Mass in the U.S., I think a lot of the “traditionalists” would keep over! But in a way, I don’t blame them. This is the U.S., not Puerto Rico, and we have our own ideas of decorum and music in Mass. (Now if the Mass were for Puerto Ricans, that would be OK.)
The GIRM seems to make allowances for different culture. This is why so many statements include something about the local Church authority making the decision. Things like postures and musical instruments are left up to the Bishops, and he is free to make the decision based on his knowledge of the culture.
You’re absolutely right–in certain cultures, certain things would be considered rude that are are not rude in other cultures. I remember when my daughter went to Italy for a skating competition, she and the other skaters were told to not make a circle with their thumb and forefinger. We do this all the time in the U.S., and it means “good job.” Apparently it doesn’t mean that in Italy. It is an insult concerning a posterior portion of the human body.
I have a Puerto Rican friend who says that Masses in the U.S. are incredibly quiet and short compared to what she is used to. In Puerto Rico, there are different instruments (guitars and maracas and other Latin instruments, not European pianos and organs!), and the people clap during the singing. And during Communion, instead of proceeding to the front in orderly lines, they make a dash for the front. She said this is because they are all eager to receive the Lord, and it would be considered “rude” to wait patiently because it is irreverent to Him.
Now if we tried these things in our Mass in the U.S., I think a lot of the “traditionalists” would keep over! But in a way, I don’t blame them. This is the U.S., not Puerto Rico, and we have our own ideas of decorum and music in Mass. (Now if the Mass were for Puerto Ricans, that would be OK.)
C
chicago
Guest
The question remains, “What has changed?” between missals which would allow a previous dicastrial instruction to be superceded. The mere fact that there is an update of the missal alone would not invalidate the reasoning or clarification if the new missal hasn’t updated anything essential in this regard. Every question does not necessarily have to be re-submitted and re-confirmed just because of a simple updating, unless there were significant and essential changes in regulation and thought about these matters. That isn’t to say that one couldn’t place the question before them again to see if they would merely confirm the previous judgement or change their reasoning and policy. But until that happens, one must assume that the previous adjudication remains in force.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
There are very little instructions for the congregation in the revised GIRM, so I stand by what I posted. Certainly you may disagree.
Lux
M
mcrobbins
Guest
I think what several posters tend to discussion. All should be read objectively; after all, one is then given the delightful opportunity to engage in rapport posters. Might I also take this opportunity to appeal to your sense of leadership?..let’s stay level headed, free of insults directed at others, and Christi like. :hug1:
I am a new member and all I can say about this posting is AMEN. Thank you for such an elegant response.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Quote=Lux et Tenebrae
It is not a smoke screen. Why not ask your Bishop if that old instruction will be enforced under the current rubrics?
You may stand by what you posted—but that does not make you right. The FACT that holding hands is not part of GIRM says that the instruction is not superceded.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
I personally am in favor of uniformity in the Parish, unless there is a serious abuse. I don’t mind hand-holding or hand-shaking, as long as it is not disruptive. Those conga lines across the pews or running up and down the aisles is very distracting.
GIRM
Lux
GIRM
Your instruction may still be on the books, but I have never seen or heard of a report that it was enforced. The official response from the USCCB is no posture is prescribed for the Lord’s Prayer
Lux
W
Walking_Home
Guest
What does the Right of Peace have to do with this—it is not what is being discussed. There being no posture prescribed in it itself does not abrogate the prior directive – it actually enforces the prior directive—meaning the GIRM has not superceded the directive.
Taking into account that many things still occur during Mass that are against directives like RS-2004—it is not surprising that you have never seen or heard of directive being enforced. Just because it is being done–does not make it licit.
L
Linnyo
Guest
Oh my post has offended people and it really wasn’t meant to. I have been wondering about why people focus on little things for a long time and was just never sure where to put it. Water, I didn’t just look at yours and decide that I would pick on you. Honestly. I do just wonder at the reasons for getting het up over, what seems to me, as non-sins.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, it’s partly because to one person, ‘different posture’ doesn’t really mean all that much (whether this is due to that person’s culture, upbringing, personal style, studies, or a host of other possibilities), but to another (likewise due to culture, upbringing, personal studies, studies etc) it DOES mean more than a 'little thing.
Rudyard Kipling once wrote, “East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet til Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great judgment seat. . .” Sometimes I do feel when it comes to both ‘little’ and ‘great’ things, East is East, West is West.
Depending on the POV, there is merit both to the idea that one need not sweat the small stuff, so to speak. . .
and that “if one does not root out the little issues which are problematic, one is likely to face BIGGER issues later on”.
Easy going people of a certain ethos, culture, and understanding, in a certain place at a certain time, are more likely, in all areas of their lives, to think that “little things don’t matter so much; diversity is great, I’ll do my thing, you do yours”.
And more ‘focused’ people of a certain ethos, culture and understanding, in a certain place at a certain time, are more likely, in all areas of their lives, to think, "I have seen so many times that great cultural changes start out with ‘little things’; so ‘little’ that most people barely notice. . .then the changes become greater and greater, and because one has never from the start challenged the ‘first’, ‘little’ changes, one is inexorably swept up into the ‘big’ changes and any attempts to stem the tide involve far, far greater effort.
A lot depends on what you yourself have experienced. If you have never really faced the ‘second’ scenario, you’ll probably find it hard to believe that such a great, culturally approved idea of ‘tolerance’ and ‘not sweating the small stuff’ and ‘personal diversity’ could EVER be a problem! You think the person who even HINTS such a thing must be a rigid, judgmental boob, probably with a sinister agenda aimed at hauling Catholics back into the Dark Ages.
And if you’ve lived through the second scenario, you will likewise find it hard to believe that those ‘little things’ do NOT bother a lot of your fellow Catholics. You want to almost shake them from what you see as either apathy or totally misguided ‘tolerance’ and SHOW them just what this kind of wrong thinking has given society in the past 40 years – all of which started from ‘little things’. You want to yell, “Wake up! We are in danger of losing our very souls to Modernism, relativism, and indifferentism, and never EVEN NOTICING!”
Rudyard Kipling once wrote, “East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet til Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great judgment seat. . .” Sometimes I do feel when it comes to both ‘little’ and ‘great’ things, East is East, West is West.
Depending on the POV, there is merit both to the idea that one need not sweat the small stuff, so to speak. . .
and that “if one does not root out the little issues which are problematic, one is likely to face BIGGER issues later on”.
Easy going people of a certain ethos, culture, and understanding, in a certain place at a certain time, are more likely, in all areas of their lives, to think that “little things don’t matter so much; diversity is great, I’ll do my thing, you do yours”.
And more ‘focused’ people of a certain ethos, culture and understanding, in a certain place at a certain time, are more likely, in all areas of their lives, to think, "I have seen so many times that great cultural changes start out with ‘little things’; so ‘little’ that most people barely notice. . .then the changes become greater and greater, and because one has never from the start challenged the ‘first’, ‘little’ changes, one is inexorably swept up into the ‘big’ changes and any attempts to stem the tide involve far, far greater effort.
A lot depends on what you yourself have experienced. If you have never really faced the ‘second’ scenario, you’ll probably find it hard to believe that such a great, culturally approved idea of ‘tolerance’ and ‘not sweating the small stuff’ and ‘personal diversity’ could EVER be a problem! You think the person who even HINTS such a thing must be a rigid, judgmental boob, probably with a sinister agenda aimed at hauling Catholics back into the Dark Ages.
And if you’ve lived through the second scenario, you will likewise find it hard to believe that those ‘little things’ do NOT bother a lot of your fellow Catholics. You want to almost shake them from what you see as either apathy or totally misguided ‘tolerance’ and SHOW them just what this kind of wrong thinking has given society in the past 40 years – all of which started from ‘little things’. You want to yell, “Wake up! We are in danger of losing our very souls to Modernism, relativism, and indifferentism, and never EVEN NOTICING!”
K
Kelly
Guest
Amen, I agree completly with your post!!Well, it’s partly because to one person, ‘different posture’ doesn’t really mean all that much (whether this is due to that person’s culture, upbringing, personal style, studies, or a host of other possibilities), but to another (likewise due to culture, upbringing, personal studies, studies etc) it DOES mean more than a 'little thing.
Rudyard Kipling once wrote, “East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet til Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great judgment seat. . .” Sometimes I do feel when it comes to both ‘little’ and ‘great’ things, East is East, West is West.
Depending on the POV, there is merit both to the idea that one need not sweat the small stuff, so to speak. . .
and that “if one does not root out the little issues which are problematic, one is likely to face BIGGER issues later on”.
Easy going people of a certain ethos, culture, and understanding, in a certain place at a certain time, are more likely, in all areas of their lives, to think that “little things don’t matter so much; diversity is great, I’ll do my thing, you do yours”.
And more ‘focused’ people of a certain ethos, culture and understanding, in a certain place at a certain time, are more likely, in all areas of their lives, to think, "I have seen so many times that great cultural changes start out with ‘little things’; so ‘little’ that most people barely notice. . .then the changes become greater and greater, and because one has never from the start challenged the ‘first’, ‘little’ changes, one is inexorably swept up into the ‘big’ changes and any attempts to stem the tide involve far, far greater effort.
A lot depends on what you yourself have experienced. If you have never really faced the ‘second’ scenario, you’ll probably find it hard to believe that such a great, culturally approved idea of ‘tolerance’ and ‘not sweating the small stuff’ and ‘personal diversity’ could EVER be a problem! You think the person who even HINTS such a thing must be a rigid, judgmental boob, probably with a sinister agenda aimed at hauling Catholics back into the Dark Ages.
And if you’ve lived through the second scenario, you will likewise find it hard to believe that those ‘little things’ do NOT bother a lot of your fellow Catholics. You want to almost shake them from what you see as either apathy or totally misguided ‘tolerance’ and SHOW them just what this kind of wrong thinking has given society in the past 40 years – all of which started from ‘little things’. You want to yell, “Wake up! We are in danger of losing our very souls to Modernism, relativism, and indifferentism, and never EVEN NOTICING!”
J
juliamajor
Guest
Aren’t we better off looking at the"log" in our own eye then looking at the"splinters’ of others? Being introspective is much better and more productive to your soul then being critical of others.we should seek our own perfection not seek to make others perfect.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Julia, it’s not either-or; it’s both-and. Are you so sure that any one ‘criticizing’ has NOT already checked the ‘log’ in his/her eye? Remember, Ezechiel warns us that if we see a person who is sinning, and do not warn that person of the sin, we will also be responsible for that person’s spiritual ‘death’. One must look at the ‘whole’ picture.
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