Liturgical Abuses depressing me

[az_4_faith]

I would never include abuses I haven’t personally witnessed.

And I’m not talking about anything that is licit. Not talking about holding hands at the Our Father, altar girls, receiving in the hand, etc. I have no problem with the NO Mass.

I’ve only listed abuses that were way out of line of the rubrics, and the priests that allowed them should have known better.

Shame on them - not shame on me for being upset that they’ve manipulated the Sacrifice of the Mass. They don’t have the right to mold the Mass to their liking, as if it were lacking in some way or another.

Thanks be to God that our diocese has a wonderful orthodox Bishop who is fixing these problems. It just pains me when I go to Mass on vacation or somewhere else in the country and I see what others have to put up with. And I don’t have the time or energy to contact their Bishops - it’s not my diocese. But I’ve had relatives who were quite surprised when I’ve told them that a lay minister can’t proclaim the Gospel and give the homily, or that the Gloria is supposed to be included in all Sunday liturgies outside or Lent or Advent, or a lay minister can’t anoint parishioners for a healing service alongside the priest, or that the faithful aren’t allowed to “dip” their host in the Precious Blood at Communion time . . . to mention a few.

It does get frustrating, and I do vent about this from time to time here on these boards, but oftentimes due to alot of folks comments, I’m made to feel that I’m the problem, not those who are committing the abuses, which is even more frustrating!

Why is it asking too much to have the Mass offered in its proper form, especially when there are so many things a priest CAN do licitlly to personalize the Mass to his and his parish’s own taste of worship??

 

[Joysong]

Today’s words from Zenit are worth pondering in light of some posts in this thread:

Unjust defamation

“The legitimate criticism of certain forms of behavior of followers of a religion should not turn into insult or unjust defamation nor into offensive mockery of its revered persons, practices, rites or symbols,” the prelate said. "Respect for the rights and dignity of others should mark the limit of any right, even that of the free expression and manifestation of one’s opinions, religious ones included.

“One cannot consider the ridicule of the sacred as a right of freedom. In the full respect of the right of expression, mechanisms or instruments need to be developed, coherent with the human rights provisions that would defend the message of religious communities from manipulation and would avoid a disrespectful presentation of their members.”

 

[Fergal]

All these abuses I see and hear about really getting to me. Is there any hope? Even some bishops are commiting abuses. Why isn’t the Holy Father doing anything? Is there no hope?

I say to myself: “Jesus would be rolling over in His grave if He had one”. (Just a little humor to keep me sane.)

Seriously, is there no more respect for the sacraments among most Catholics?

Priests who commit abuses: Are they evil or just stupid?

Since, like all of us, you hear about and notice so many abuses taking place, your immediate action is not to be one of sadness and melancholy but hope and confidence. When you hear about or witness an abuse taking place you are to make an act of contrition there and then and try to comfort the Heart of Christ to whom all judgement and mercy belong.

Smother these abuses with apologies to the Lord and you will appease His sorrowful heart.

If enough of us do that, then Christ will be given the Glory through all the madness.

 

[Brenda_V]

I would never include abuses I haven’t personally witnessed.

az 4 faith, you are one of the only ones who have come on here and said this. Many of the abuses we here are seeing is something either on youtube or just a picture that someone has found on the web and is so outraged that they just had to post it here to prove their point that somewhere Mass is being celebrated irreverently. I do know that there are places this is happening and am happy to pray for your Parish or Diocese that things get resolved so Mass is celebrated reverently.

Why is it asking too much to have the Mass offered in its proper form, especially when there are so many things a priest CAN do licitlly to personalize the Mass to his and his parish’s own taste of worship??

I agree 100% with you here. What generally really bugs me about these topics is when I and several others point out that Mass is being celebrated properly in our respective Parishes we are discounted, we are told that is nice and then totally ignored - what we are doing is trying to give hope to those who aren’t blessed with an orthodox Parish but they don’t want to take that hope, they just want to continue to complain.

So, I am here to give you and those like you hope that things can get better, it may take a lot longer than you want but it can get better, keep up the intense prayers for your Priests and continue to be the squeaky wheel . In the meantime feel free to tell us about what you have personally witnessed and we can include your Priest and Parish in our prayers for a quicker resolution to the abuses.

Brenda V.

 

[Joysong]

Brenda V.:

In the meantime feel free to tell us about what you have personally witnessed and we can include your Priest and Parish in our prayers for a quicker resolution to the abuses.

I would like to add “personally witnessed very recently.” The poster you replied to had witnessed to liturgical dance in this thread “three years ago.” It causes the reader to doubt their words when they attest to things they saw way back when. I think a lot of the graviora delicta abuses have been corrected, so it is not very reasonable to put the liturgy in this light as though the litany goes on always and everywhere.

I liked your recourse to hope, Brenda, and it echoes the Conclusion in Redemptoris Sacramentum:

[185.] “Against the seeds of discord which daily experience shows to be so deeply ingrained in human nature as a result of sin, there stands the creative power of the unity of Christ’s body. For it is precisely by building up the Church that the Eucharist establishes fellowship among men.”

It is therefore the hope of this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments that also, by the diligent application of those things that are recalled in this Instruction, human weakness may come to pose less of an obstacle to the action of the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, and that with all distortion set aside and every reprobated practice removed, through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

 

[az_4_faith]

I would like to add “personally witnessed very recently.” The poster you replied to had witnessed to liturgical dance in this thread “three years ago.” It causes the reader to doubt their words when they attest to things they saw way back when. I think a lot of the graviora delicta abuses have been corrected, so it is not very reasonable to put the liturgy in this light as though the litany goes on always and everywhere.

I liked your recourse to hope, Brenda, and it echoes the Conclusion in Redemptoris Sacramentum:

Jesus, Mary and Joseph - Joysong

For heavens sake, what the heck did I ever do to you to warrant these continual personal attacks??

Are you the king/queen of the thread and you’re putting the rules down on what one can and cannot speak about?

I don’t recall having to clear my comments with you before I post them.

Lay off already!!

 

[Holland]

I like the last two posts. I would say I am hopeful that things will change in my Diocese. When I travel and attend Mass in other cities and towns I am usually relieved to find a nice reverent , liturtically correct Mass. It makes me realize that things can change in my diocese but that it will take time. The other thing I would say is for some of us the abuses are not a one time thing, 3 years ago. Its every Sunday, every Mass, the same abuses over and over and over again because the Diocese has decided to turn a blind eye to what its going on. Having a forum to complain on is a Godsend for some of us. I am always hopeful and I pray everday for all the priests in our Diocese.

 

[Joysong]

Dear AZ-4,

I was at a loss of words when I read your last post, for you completely have misunderstood me. Not knowing how to answer you, I prayed, and the thought of my last post came to mind where it said in R.S.,

Against the seeds of discord which daily experience shows to be so deeply ingrained in human nature as a result of sin, there stands the creative power of the unity of Christ’s body.

Rather than splinter us through the discord ingrained in human nature, I offer between us the creating power of unity, achieved through mutual understanding.

Please know that I did not attack you, and if you go back and read my posts, I lauded your practice of daily mass, which is also my practice. We both love the liturgy, and I commented on the hope that Brenda posted … anticipating that some day all of us will experience joy in worshipping at the Mass. I only asked that we keep former abuses * confined to the past, for it serves no good purpose to rekindle old wounds, huh? Wouldn’t you agree that it disrupts unity and sends a misleading message to the reader about the present?*

 

[kangnamdragon]

I have PERSONALLY WITNESSED RECENTLY:

candy being distributed during communion

liturgical dance with a nun bowing to the “4 directions”, moon, stars, with respect to Native American gods

I have been told that our pastor will not read the gospel tomorrow, he will only “do the lights”

I have been told that our parish will have liturgical dance for Easter

I have seen a mass with no crucifix, only a resurrecifix

I have seen masses using glass chalices. The bishop’s office told me this is an abuse.

THIS IS ALL RECENT. IF YOU HAVE SEEN NOTHING LIKE THIS RECENTLY, I AM HAPPY FOR YOU, BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.

I HAVE CONTACTED THE CARDINAL’s office and was told that these are abuses but the Cardinal can do nothing about them now because he has not expressly forbid these practices, even though they are wrong.

 

[AnnieD]

I think the word I asked you was “personally,” meaning physically present at the liturgy, and not on “You-tube.”.

Joysong, I was physically present at the liturgy, when our Priest stood on his head in front of the altar during the homily last month. I feel depressed that our Lord is not getting the respect, praise and attention during the Mass that he deserves. Instead we are distracted by theatrics.


AnnieD

 

[Joysong]

Annie,

It just seems so bizarre to me, for I cannot imagine the risk he took of being entrapped by all of the vestments cascading over him as they turned upsidedown. So my next wonder was, did this occur during a liturgy or after a homily where he was not fully vested, such as a paraliturgical service of some sort.

I’m saddened with you that it occurred, not that it falls under the category of graviora delicta, but for scandalizing your parishioners. I sense that you are still lamenting this a number of weeks later, for you have written about it elsewhere. Do you believe it helps to dwell on it and re-live it through additional posts? What good purpose does this accomplish?

I feel depressed that our Lord is not getting the respect, praise and attention during the Mass that he deserves.

It is not the Lord who was disrespected, Annie … only the priest.

In the Mass we join in the prayer, “We thank You for counting us worthy to stand in Your presence and serve You.”
May all who are upset by these types of things remember that the Mass is a privilege and a gift from God … for “our good and the good of all His church.” There are many in the world who are not able to attend Mass, either through sickness, persecution, or lack of a priest.

We can refuse to be downcast and ALWAYS render praise to God through our gratitude and thanksgiving for this ineffable gift and give Him our most ardent worship. It is a reparation that will surely please Him and draw blessings for the Mystical Body with whom we are united … and with most of whom there occur no delicts, as Brenda mentioned. Thanks be to God it is not “always and everywhere” that this is happening.

 

[kangnamdragon]

It is not the Lord who was disrespected, Annie … only the priest.

.

Are you saying Annie disrespected the priest because she felt he did something wrong?

I really can’t understand how anyone can say the Lord was not disrespected.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I have PERSONALLY WITNESSED RECENTLY:

candy being distributed during communion

liturgical dance with a nun bowing to the “4 directions”, moon, stars, with respect to Native American gods

I have been told that our pastor will not read the gospel tomorrow, he will only “do the lights”

I have been told that our parish will have liturgical dance for Easter

I have seen a mass with no crucifix, only a resurrecifix

I have seen masses using glass chalices. The bishop’s office told me this is an abuse.

THIS IS ALL RECENT. IF YOU HAVE SEEN NOTHING LIKE THIS RECENTLY, I AM HAPPY FOR YOU, BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.

I HAVE CONTACTED THE CARDINAL’s office and was told that these are abuses but the Cardinal can do nothing about them now because he has not expressly forbid these practices, even though they are wrong.

I live in Massachusetts. Could you tell us where it is that you saw these things?

Jim

 

[vince2paul]

Well, you are not alone. I’ve been experiencing this and sometimes ago I felt quite bitter with the situation. There are times I feel powerless and not able to do anything, but I believe that God has given me the knowledge so that I may know and I think He wants me to do something.

Simple example would be a youth retreat I attended 2 weeks ago. There were about 110 people and a well known speaker who unfortunately misinterpreted the bible. During mass, the priest allowed self-intinction and every single person did it, except me. I just can’t believe that no one knew that it wasn’t allowed. So I emailed the priest after that and he humbly accepted that he didn’t know it before. It was done with a good intention, so that people are able to receive body and blood of Christ.

Don’t be discouraged, and ask God the graces to give you the courage you need to bring the true teaching of the Church. Definitely there are people who will discourage you along the way, but don’t be discouraged. Pray to Jesus to strengthen you. If we don’t do it, who will?

After all, with great [knowledge] comes great responsibility.
We remember what Martin Luther did during the time when there were scandal in the Church, leave the Church. However, we shouldn’t forget that there was also St. Francis of Assisi who, after witnessing how corrupted the Church was, still stayed and even rebuilt the Church.

All these abuses I see and hear about really getting to me. Is there any hope? Even some bishops are commiting abuses. Why isn’t the Holy Father doing anything? Is there no hope?

I say to myself: “Jesus would be rolling over in His grave if He had one”. (Just a little humor to keep me sane.)

Seriously, is there no more respect for the sacraments among most Catholics?

Priests who commit abuses: Are they evil or just stupid?

 

[kangnamdragon]

I travel a lot for work. Some are in Boston, others are in different states. I am not going to mention a particular parish or priest because my point is not to attack anyone, but for people to see that abuses are still occuring and I want us to discuss the proper way for us to react to them.

A prayer I wrote today:

Have mercy on me Lord for I am a sinner.
Help me to strive for the holiness to which I am called.
Give me the grace to live as You are in me, and be a worthy vessel of You so others may see You in my heart, mind, and deeds.
Give me the prudence to look with compassion upon those who do not revere You with awe and may I humbly escort them, recognizing my own failings, to the bounty of Your love and mercy.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I travel a lot for work. Some are in Boston, others are in different states. I am not going to mention a particular parish or priest because my point is not to attack anyone, but for people to see that abuses are still occuring and I want us to discuss the proper way for us to react to them.

A prayer I wrote today:

Have mercy on me Lord for I am a sinner.
Help me to strive for the holiness to which I am called.
Give me the grace to live as You are in me, and be a worthy vessel of You so others may see You in my heart, mind, and deeds.
Give me the prudence to look with compassion upon those who do not revere You with awe and may I humbly escort them, recognizing my own failings, to the bounty of Your love and mercy.

I’m skeptical about what you’ve posted then.

Jim

 

[az_4_faith]

By the simple fact of the information shared in these posts, these abuses have profound effect on the faithful, whether they were committed a few years ago, a few weeks ago, a few days ago or this very day.

It is not by one single event that I have been so saddened. It’s been by the culimation of these many events, all added together over the course of a few years that weighs so heavy, especially in light of the actions taken in the recent past by the Holy See specifically addressing these issues. In our diocese, most of the abuses were corrected fairly quickly after Redemptoris Sacramentum was issued, because our Bishop let everyone know that the document was to be followed. Even that didn’t prevent some of our priests from taking their own liberties in the time since. But the Bishop can’t be everywhere assuring obedience.

Sounds like some of the other Bishops haven’t expected as much from their priests, though.

 

[Joysong]

kangnamdragon:

Are you saying Annie disrespected the priest because she felt he did something wrong? I really can’t understand how anyone can say the Lord was not disrespected.

It was the priest whom the people, and probably Annie, would have disrespected for being imprudent. Posting this in other threads tells me that she was upset, and still carries some resentment, understandably. The problem is that we only know one side of the story and have not been informed about whether this was done in a liturgy with full vestments (did he disrobe?), or in a teen mass which Annie has been to in the past, and what the point of his action was, even though it was lacking in judgment, and how often it occurred, etc. Hopefully, it was a one-time unusual action, and not a routine Sunday liturgy “theatric.”

Being on a forum where there are multiple variances in opinion and emotional personalities, I can see where some would believe the Lord Himself was disrespected, and others would not. We need to keep a balance and not get uptight when others disagree with an opinion. Not all are built with the exact specifications.

Which brings me back to your situation. I detect some strong emotions that will make it difficult for anyone to discuss with you, somewhat akin to religion and politics which mama always told me to avoid, if possible.

I HAVE CONTACTED THE CARDINAL’s office and was told that these are abuses but the Cardinal can do nothing about them now because he has not expressly forbid these practices, even though they are wrong.

He does not have to expressly forbid them, because they are already forbidden in the rubrics.

I have been told that our pastor will not read the gospel tomorrow, he will only “do the lights”
Well, tomorrow is now today. What really occurred?

I have been told that our parish will have liturgical dance for Easter.
This is fact and not hearsay?

I have seen a mass with no crucifix, only a resurrecifix
A mass … singular? My church has the resurrected Lord behind the altar, and it is not considered an abuse. The altar servers process with a “crucifix” which remains in the sanctuary during the liturgy. Many will have conflicting opinions.

I have seen masses using glass chalices. The bishop’s office told me this is an abuse.
Generally, yes, unless there were some extraordinary circumstances and not an occurrence every Sunday.

Contrary to what some perceive as my lack of sympathy for abusing the rubrics, I am very concerned, but in the grand scheme of things, “some” are not really so blasphemous as others have been led to believe … irregular, yes … blasphemous, no. When one considers that a diocese has hundreds of parishes, it could overwhelm a bishop to receive constant letters expressing dismay over the minor infractions that reach their desk. Their shepherding may be much more focused on their primary calling than disciplining their brother priests for some of the nonsense I have seen throughout the forum, as if that’s all they had to do.

My pastor reminded us that this week on Holy Thursday, all priests will gather for the chrism mass and dedicate themselves anew to serving God’s people. I am so grateful beyond words for their ministry on our behalf that it causes me pain to see them disrespected whenever I read about it. They are the anointed of God, subject to sins as frail humans, and need our support – not our constant fault-finding.

The R.S. clarifies what constitutes a very grave abuse, and I support and encourage anyone who experiences these to submit their report. May I also add that when the reports are full of vitriol for the clergy the bishop is very apt to dismiss them, unless they are so serious that they warrant immediate inquiry.

Much prayer for our priests and our church, as well as for our own patience and mercy, seems to be the best any of us can do.

 

[AnnieD]

Annie,

It just seems so bizarre to me, for I cannot imagine the risk he took of being entrapped by all of the vestments cascading over him as they turned upsidedown. So my next wonder was, did this occur during a liturgy or after a homily where he was not fully vested, such as a paraliturgical service of some sort.

I’m saddened with you that it occurred, not that it falls under the category of graviora delicta, but for scandalizing your parishioners. I sense that you are still lamenting this a number of weeks later, for you have written about it elsewhere. Do you believe it helps to dwell on it and re-live it through additional posts? What good purpose does this accomplish?
.

Our Priest standing on his head, was performed during a liturgy
and he was fully vested, until he took his top vestment off, so you could still see his face, while upside down. He then put his vestment back on, and proceeded with the rest of the Mass. He performed this feat at all 4 of our Masses.

when reading about abuses, it does help me to vent about it. It accomplishes for me, the same good purpose, as it does you, who criticize those who talk about the abuses occuring in their churches.

The Mass is about Our Lord, NOT attention given to the Priest and taken away from Our Lord. We are there to show our Love and Praise to the Lord, not to applaud as some of the parishioners were doing after the Priest stood on his head during the Mass. That is just one of many things we put up with, like the 2 movie screens, the bongo drums, giving clay to parishioners to make a cup and asking them to come forward, and putting his hand over their heads for applause for the best cup maker. All of this occurred during the Mass.

AnnieD

 

[Joysong]

AZ 4 Faith:

By the simple fact of the information shared in these posts, these abuses have profound effect on the faithful, whether they were committed a few years ago, a few weeks ago, a few days ago or this very day.

It is not by one single event that I have been so saddened. It’s been by the culimation of these many events, all added together over the course of a few years that weighs so heavy, especially in light of the actions taken in the recent past by the Holy See specifically addressing these issues.

I fully agree that these have a profound effect on the faithful, AZ, But what is the alternative? Leave the Church? Some have! Maybe many more than we like to imagine! The time of testing ought to show us where our faith really lies, and how loyal we are to Christ and His Church, in spite of the traps that Satan sets to root us out of Her. We must not let this sorrow rob us of the charity and joy that St. Paul speaks of, “rejoice always, in all circumstances!” We are to be a light to others, not darkness… amen?

My very favorite saint, Teresa of Avila, took it upon herself when her pain over Luther’s revolt became extremely keen, to found an order dedicated to prayer for priests. Her approach was different than ours, perhaps, but pain is not always bad if it leads to a greater good in spite of what our eyes loathe to behold.