Liturgical Abuses in the Middle Ages! (If You Think You Have It Bad . . .)

[TNT]

AmyS:

SSPX is schismatic…

This is a very big theological conundrum. I do not necessarily disagree with you. But, the problem has many facits.

1. The 3 theological virtues; Faith, Hope, Charity are superior to the Moral virtue of Obedience to lawful authority.
2. A command is unlawful if in good conscience you believe it to be against the superior virtue of Faith or Charity.
3. If a pope says “you are in schism” does that make it so? If #3 applies, the answer is no. If the command is not against the Faith or Charity, the answer is yes.
4. The East Orthodox is in objective schism because they publicly deny the primacy of jurisdiction of the pope… a command that is de fide.
5. The SSPX adheres to the primacy of jurisdiction. They just claim #3 in justifying their disobedience.

That is why the Vatican says that you can fulfill Mass obligations for reasonable necessity in SSPX, but not in East orthodox.
At worst, the SSPX is in material schism, at best it is illogical in its positions since the true Vicar of Christ does not command against the Virtues of Faith or Charity. If he did, he would no longer be the voice of Christ, his Master, but His enemy.
Isn’t this fun? Plain and simple?

 

[Munda_cor_meum]

AmyS:

Read about it on the Vatican website to. .

I’ve tried, but can find very little on the Vatican website. Its search engine leaves much to be desired ( perhaps, though, it is the searcher).

In any case, please provide a link on the vatican site that says the the SSPX is schismatic.

If you are interested, this is what the society itself says about the charge oc schism:

sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q12_sspxschismatic.htm

 

[mkw]

The SSPX argument is wayyyyy over my head, so I will not venture there. The other TN locations are anywhere from 2 to 6 HOUR drive for me. I live in E. TN and anyone who has been to ET knows, we got lots and lots of mountains.

Driving to a distant parish poses dangers due to lack of winter maintenance in the smaller towns.

I am quite happy at my parish, but like I stated, IF there was any abuses, I would not always be able to recognize them.

I have heard good things about St. Stevens Church in Chattanooga though. I would love to see how the TM is conducted, I have heard it is well worth the trip.

 

[mkw]

The SSPX argument is wayyyyy over my head, so I will not venture there. The other TN locations are anywhere from 2 to 6 HOUR drive for me. I live in E. TN and anyone who has been to ET knows, we got lots and lots of mountains.

Driving to a distant parish poses dangers due to lack of winter maintenance in the smaller towns.

I am quite happy at my parish, but like I stated, IF there was any abuses, I would not always be able to recognize them.

I have heard good things about St. Stevens Church in Chattanooga though. I would love to see how the TM is conducted, I have heard it is well worth the trip.

 

[TNT]

mkw:

I have heard good things about St. Stevens Church in Chattanooga though. I would love to see how the TM is conducted, I have heard it is well worth the trip.

You do well!. A TLM in Chattanooga. Who woulda thought?

I believe that TENN is one of the MOST beautiful states on earth. Lucky you, 2 times over.
God Bless.
TENN…home of the churches of Christ non-denominational denomination.

 

[Munda_cor_meum]

TNT:

… since the true Vicar of Christ does not command against the Virtues of Faith or Charity. If he did, he would no longer be the voice of Christ, his Master, but His enemy.
Isn’t this fun? Plain and simple?

Forgive me, but isn’t this what is known as the error of “Infalibillity creep”?. If you deny that the Pope can make mistakes - even when it comes to morals - you come very close to denying Apostolic Succession.

Remember that in her history, the Church has had some real scoundrels as Pope. They also “commanded against the Virtues of Faith or Charity” - but they were still the Pope!

Now, I am not at all suggesting that His Holiness is anything like these (… searching for a word here …) fallen Popes, but you cannot take every utterance and opinion he makes as infallible truth.

 

[TNT]

AmyS:

Does that make more sense?

No, but it’s going the right way… Don’t give up!

Love ya

 

[AmyS]

Munda cor meum:

I’ve tried, but can find very little on the Vatican website. Its search engine leaves much to be desired ( perhaps, though, it is the searcher).

In any case, please provide a link on the vatican site that says the the SSPX is schismatic.

If you are interested, this is what the society itself says about the charge oc schism:

sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q12_sspxschismatic.htm

I have posted this before so I am sorry for redudence… I have read that site. When, my best friend started to attend the SSPX church I did a lot of research into it. I am not the smartest person by any means, but, it seems pretty clear to me that the bishops and priest are excommunicated… and shcismatic. read below.

From the:Apostolic letter of Pope John Paul II given on July 2, 1988.
Quote:
3. In itself this act was one of disobedience to the Roman pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience–which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy–constitutes a schismatic act.[3] In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the cardinal prefect of the Congregation for Bishops last June 17, Archbishop Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.[4]

1. The root of this schismatic act can be discerned in an incomplete and contradictory notion of tradition. Incomplete, because it does not take sufficiently into account the living character of tradition, which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly taught, “comes from the apostles and progresses in the church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways. It comes through the contemplation and study of believers, who ponder these things in their hearts. It comes from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which they experience. And it comes from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth.”[5] But especially contradictory is a notion of tradition which opposes the universal magisterium of the church possessed by the bishop of Rome and the body of bishops. It is impossible to remain faithful to the tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond with him to whom, in the person of the apostle Peter, Christ himself entrusted the ministry of unity in his church.[6]

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html

Jimmy Akins has all this information too… jamesakin.com/

also, read…

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CEDSSPX2.HTM

 

[TNT]

Munda cor meum:

Now, I am not at all suggesting that His Holiness is anything like these (… searching for a word here …) fallen Popes, but you cannot take every utterance and opinion he makes as infallible truth.

True when he expresses opinion, not to be obeyed by all. The pope stated publicly that the SSPX bishops were in schism. He has never retracted it.

Your case is Scriptural…
“get behind Me Satan!” Peter expressed an ardent desire or wish or opinion, but not for the universal Church.
Nevertheless, he was acting as the enemy of Christ and the Lord certifies this by the above quote.
I speak of a command that all must believe and /or obey. In the case of the SSPX, it is certain declarations and follow-through of VAT II and the new catechism which they say are against Faith or Charity. These are universal declarations that the pope says MUST be assented to by all Catholics.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Actually, I said PHONE not go to any Mass. I bolded the Indults, but if they are no where near home, what’s the use?

I know you’re an intelligent man. Which is why posts like yours in this thread really disgust me and boggle my mind.

You don’t see any problem in inviting a newly converted Catholic to a Lefebvrist chapel, even if such attendance can technically fulfill one’s Sunday obligation? You don’t see the dangers of scandal, and the imprudence of even bringing this up?!

It’s guys like you who gives us Tridentine devotees a bad name. There’s nothing you won’t do for a Tridentine Mass. Nothing . . .

Oh please! That’s nonsense. The founder (Archbishop LeFebvre)was thought to be excommunicated due to disobedience, which is a far cry from schism.

No, actually; this is what schism is. Refusing to obey one’s lawful superiors is to at least implicitly deny their God-given authority. This is the traditional Catholic view on the matter.

If you are interested, this is what the society itself says about the charge oc schism:

You really must be naive. No schismatic Church *ever * comes out and says, “We’re schismatic.” Not the Novationists, Donatists, Orthodox, Jansenists, Old Catholics, and neither the Lefebvrists.

You’ve much to learn and you’ve certainly got no business discussing these matters in this particular thread (it’s got nothing to do with the topic I posted), or bringing this up to a new Catholic.

 

[AmyS]

TNT:

No, but it’s going the right way… Don’t give up!

Love ya

I guess a push isn’t a bad thing. The authority is God… The Church gets its aurthority and teachings from God… I guess I don’t make sense to me either… It gets it through the Holy Spirit. Thanks for pushing by the way…

 

[serendipity]

I’ve never heard os SSPX? What is it? A type of independent Catholic movement?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

mkw,

The SSPX argument is wayyyyy over my head, so I will not venture there.

Good choice. Their bishops are excommunicated and their priests are non-incardinated. Their actions in celebrating the Mass apart from the authority of the Diocesene bishop is illicit according to canon law. They are not in full communion with the Roman Pontiff, which is the very definition of schism.

For you, I suggest that it is not your competence to right the wrongs of the ordained and incardinated priests of the Catholic Church. As you learn more in your faith journey, it will be easier for you to detect when something is not in accord with the rubrics as approved by the Roman Pontiff. For now, have faith that God is looking out for you.

Yet, if you think something seems heterodox, I suggest that you charitably follow this protocol…

cuf.org/protocol.htm

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Perhaps for January 1 the Society of Saint Pius X chapels will have a Traditional Mass of the Asses!

“I shall go into the altar of Bacchus . . .”

The Collect is very Traditionalist:

Omemus [Let us bet]. Pour down thy wrath, O Lord, upon the misers and the hoarders who carry their little bags beside their backsides and, when they have a penny, thrust it in so that it may multiply and bring forth a hundred. A curse upon him, he is a brother to depravity, a son of iniquity, a bastard, a pinch-arse, a stinking hypocrite, trembling lest he should pay. A curse upon him. To curse such as these is fitting for one who has blessed Zacchaeus and refused the rich miser a drop of water. Amen. And may the curse of God the Father Almighty descend upon all of you.

This Dismissal seems particularly fitting for schismatic “Traditionalists”:

At the end of Mass, the priest, having turned to the people, in lieu of saying the ‘Ite, Missa est’, will bray thrice; the people instead of replying ‘Deo Gratias’ say, ‘Hinham, hinham, hinham.’

Pardon me; I tend to confuse heretics/schismatics with Asses; the differences are so subtle, they often escape me . . .

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Now, can we get back to the original topic, and the questions I posed in the first post?

 

[puzzleannie]

mkw:

I read the CCC and follow the Missel as best I can, but unless it is obvious, I may not recognize a liturgical abuse.

I have found the fullness of the faith within the Catholic Church, but am I being to “idealistic” or to “closed” minded to expect basically the same Holy Mass celebrated in EVERY Catholic Church?

just attend Mass faithfully, assist to the best of your ability, and use Christian charity. Assume that even if you see or hear something you don’t understand, it is allowed. It is the priest’s responsibility, not yours, to plan and carry out the liturgical actions. you are not required to make a judgement. If when you do become more familiar with the Mass, you do see something that seems outrageous, do not hesitate to ask the priest about it privately after Mass, there may be a valid explanation. do not allow yourself to be upset about things which are beyond your control.

 

[TNT]

DominvsVobiscvm

I know you’re an intelligent man. Which is why posts like yours in this thread really disgust me and boggle my mind.

Thy mind may be easily boggled. Sorry for your boggled mind…friend.

You don’t see the dangers of scandal, and the imprudence of even bringing this up?!

Only if they have not reached the age of reason. The mention of it was of no concern… The subject lives 200 miles away. Sorry I included it in a group. I promise it will never happen again…am I forgiven?
Meanwhile, I don’t think SSPX Masses are an immanent danger…just my disgusting opinion.

It’s guys like you who gives us Tridentine devotees a bad name. There’s nothing you won’t do for a Tridentine Mass. Nothing . . .

Actually, I would. I would never mention one to you on purpose. Berserkism is not my cup of tea.

You’ve much to learn and you’ve certainly got no business discussing these matters in this particular thread

Do you have your own index of forbidden subjects, or is this the rule of the Moderators?

(it’s got nothing to do with the topic I posted), or bringing this up to a new Catholic.

This new Catholic is pretty good with the common sense as far as I can tell.

We picked up on what was interesting. So, your stuff must have been going no place…kinda got disqualified. Happens all the time. Sorry. Don’t feel bad. Try talking with people instead of AT them.

God Bless

 

[TNT]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Now, can we get back to the original topic, and the questions I posed in the first post?

Kinda fizzled after Post #5. What can I say… Try another. It happens to the best…Ford had their Edsel, then they came back with the Mustang…Don’t give up.
15th cent mischief just didn’t light anyone’s fire. Can’t imagine why though.
God Bless

 

[TNT]

puzzleannie:

just attend Mass faithfully, assist to the best of your ability, and use Christian charity…

You seem to show up at just the right time.
Merry Christmas.
and
God Bless.

 

[alice_ciprian]

DominvsVobiscvm:

So liturgical abuse is nothing new, and if the medievals had to put up with these buffoneries for centuries, maybe we should be prepared to do so too!

Yeah, and the medievals had to put up with the Black Plague for centuries as well, so maybe we should be prepared to die en mass as well. How logical is that?!

You say that liturgical abuse was commonplace in the middle ages but the argument you cite refutes you:

We possess hundreds, not to say thousands, of liturgical manuscripts of all countries and all descriptions. Amongst them the occurrence of anything which has to do with the Feast of Fools is extraordinarily rare. In missals and breviaries we may say that it never occurs… It is reasonable to infer from this circumstance that though these extravagances took place in church and were attached to the ordinary services, the official sanction was of the slenderest.

The liturgical abuses unleashed by the Novus Ordo mass are commonplace not just in Europe but all around the world. And the impiety is not practiced on a single Feast of Fools day, but everyday while the enormity of today’s liturgical depravity is still snowballing after 40 years.

And here’s another important difference, THE ABUSES ARE OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED. They do not spring from the laity but from an indolent, indifferent, or ignorant clergy. Knaves are not responsible. Rather, bishops and popes are responsible in that they wink and nod at the abuse and refuse to care enough about Jesus to put a stop to it. Shame on you for trying to be their appologist. – Disgusted, Alice Ciprian the Traditional Catholic