Liturgical Abuses - So what's the big deal?

[YinYangMom]

Go figure…

Read quickly through the books last night and didn’t find the answers we’ve been seeking.

So far there’s no mention of proper placement of children at the altar during the Eucharist…no “yes, it can be done - this way”, or “no, it cannot be done”.

As for the glass chalices, what I really found interesting is the most recent GIRM does not mention glass at all, as the citation already presented in this thread did. It does say they should be made of precious metals and something about not being breakable, but the word ‘glass’ no longer appears. Also, in the 2002 GIRM the segment of Sacred Vessels are numbered 327-334.

These are the reference documents I’m looking over:

GIRM 2002

Lectionary for Mass: Introduction 1998

Order of Christian Funerals: General Introduction 1989

Directory for Masses with Children (1973)

Music in Catholic Worship (1982)

Liturgical Music Today (1982)

In case anyone else out here has access to those…so far I’m finding no mention of our specific concerns. Lots of other info, but not the stuff we seek.

Should I be surprised?

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

One can leave a liturgy feeling happy because of horizontal worship alone.

Let’s get beyond the feeling happy thing and focus on what’s important though…

are they receiving the Real Presence…yes.
are they hearing the Word…yes.
are their petitions being offered along with those of the Church?..yes.

The bottom line regarding the mass is your parishioners are not suffering as much as they could be (if they knew better) as a result of the way your priest is managing the Mass. Ignorance is bliss for them. Unfortunately for you it’s like fingernails on a chalkboard, I get that…but for the rest, they are not being deprived or led astray near as I can tell, even though there are definite abuses to the liturgy taking place.

Again, I am more concerned with the type of counsel such a pastor offers … the damage he can do one by one to your fellow parishioners is far worse than what these abuses are doing to them, imo.

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

Let’s get beyond the feeling happy thing and focus on what’s important though…

are they receiving the Real Presence…yes. Do they believe in the Real Presence? Based on what I witness I am not sure.
are they hearing the Word…yes.
are their petitions being offered along with those of the Church?..yes.

The bottom line regarding the mass is your parishioners are not suffering as much as they could be (if they knew better) as a result of the way your priest is managing the Mass. Ignorance is bliss for them. Unfortunately for you it’s like fingernails on a chalkboard, I get that…but for the rest, they are not being deprived or led astray near as I can tell, even though there are definite abuses to the liturgy taking place.

Again, I am more concerned with the type of counsel such a pastor offers … the damage he can do one by one to your fellow parishioners is far worse than what these abuses are doing to them, imo.

Granted we receive graces at Mass. I guess what I am hoping for is the maximum graces.

 

[YinYangMom]

YinYangMom:

These are the reference documents I’m looking over:

GIRM 2002

Lectionary for Mass: Introduction 1998

Order of Christian Funerals: General Introduction 1989

Directory for Masses with Children (1973)

Music in Catholic Worship (1982)

Liturgical Music Today (1982)

Actually, the GIRM in this book is the revised 2003 version…

and under that Directory for Masses with Children there are the following categories:

Introduction of children to the eucharistic celebration

Masses with adults in which children also participate

Masses with children in which only a few adults participate

Which one should I delve into, Buffalo, for your example #1?

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

Granted we receive graces at Mass. I guess what I am hoping for is the maximum graces.

In what you’ve described I don’t see that anyone is being deprived of any of the graces which come with a valid Mass despite the abuses.

What graces are there between what they receive now and your ‘maximum’ graces?

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

Actually, the GIRM in this book is the revised 2003 version…

and under that Directory for Masses with Children there are the following categories:

Introduction of children to the eucharistic celebration

Masses with adults in which children also participate

Masses with children in which only a few adults participate

Which one should I delve into, Buffalo, for your example #1?

Masses with adults in which children also participate

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

Masses with adults in which children also participate

Well, it neither addressed kids gathering at the altar nor interpretive gesturing during song.

Near as I can tell though, any adaptation to enhance the experience of the children participating still needs to be in accordance with the GIRM, except with express permission from the bishop…

So I’d stick with my earlier ruling - gathering at the altar - no!
interpretive gesturing - no!

Does it keep away any graces from the faithful? no.
Does it invalidate the Mass? no.

I guess just keep praying for the transfer of this priest or his enlightenment to truth, then.

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

Well, it neither addressed kids gathering at the altar nor interpretive gesturing during song.

Near as I can tell though, any adaptation to enhance the experience of the children participating still needs to be in accordance with the GIRM, except with express permission from the bishop…

So I’d stick with my earlier ruling - gathering at the altar - no!
interpretive gesturing - no!

Does it keep away any graces from the faithful? no.
Does it invalidate the Mass? no.

I guess just keep praying for the transfer of this priest or his enlightenment to truth, then.

We are definitely praying for enlightenment and obedience.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

We are definitely praying for enlightenment and obedience.

Well if it helps any, I’m praying along with you for your parish.

 

[paramedicgirl]

YinYangMom:

Hmmm…now that’s interesting.

I’m still bothered that the priest didn’t give a homily first, and then have the letter read. That seems clearly wrong.

I agree that he should have given the homily first. In the past he has had the Bishop’s letters read at the close of Mass by one of the laity. This was definitley something different.

YinYangMom:

If, indeed, the bishop’s letter was a teaching letter then all the more reason for the priest to have done the reading of it, not have it delegated to a lay person. That too seems clearly wrong.

Since the priest is from Africa and speaks with an accent, he may be uncomfortable reading out loud, but then he reads his homilies all the time and we understand him…

 

[paramedicgirl]

Another thing we do regularly at Sunday Mass is have the EMHC go to the Tabernacle right after the consecration, remove the stored hosts, and then they bring them up in a procession for the faithful who are receiving Communion.

I looked this up in the GIRM and we are supposed to receive hosts that have been consecrated at that Mass. I think this is something that is a case of “old habits die hard”, and no priest has ever been able to change it.

Another situation is that we say the Apostle’s Creed instead of the Nicence Creed. Our priest tried to change that, and he was confronted by a woman who told him the Apostle’s Creed is so much easier to memorize for the children that he shouldn’t be imposing the Nicene Creed on the poor little dears. The result? In defiance of the GIRM, and thanks to that woman, we still recite the Apostle’s Creed instead of the Nicene Creed. Every other church in our diocese says the Nicene Creed like they are supposed to.

The GIRM states that the Apostle’s Creed can be used at Children’s Masses, and the Nicene Creed is to be used otherwise.

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Paramedicgirl: Another thing we do regularly at Sunday Mass is have the EMHC go to the Tabernacle right after the consecration, remove the stored hosts, and then they bring them up in a procession for the faithful who are receiving Communion.

Is your tabernacle behind the altar? Until we were able to remodel our sanctuary (as a result of one of those misinterpretations of VII) when our tabernacle was in the Eucharistic Chapel and not in the sanctuary, an EMHC went to get the hosts in the Chapel. Is this your situation?

From paramedicgirl: I looked this up in the GIRM and we are supposed to receive hosts that have been consecrated at that Mass. I think this is something that is a case of “old habits die hard”, and no priest has ever been able to change it.

This is generally true. However, think about it. If we only to receive hosts (I hate this word but that is my own personal problem/preference ) from the Mass we attended, what would happen to the hosts we’d keep building up in the Tabernacle. In truth, it is the Priests obligation to manage the quantity kept in the Tabernacle such that it never grows too large or too small. This requires sometimes using from those in the Tabernacle and sometimes putting in depending on how well they “guessed” on attendance for a particular Mass.

From Paramedicgirl: Another situation is that we say the Apostle’s Creed instead of the Nicence Creed. Our priest tried to change that, and he was confronted by a woman who told him the Apostle’s Creed is so much easier to memorize for the children that he shouldn’t be imposing the Nicene Creed on the poor little dears. The result? In defiance of the GIRM, and thanks to that woman, we still recite the Apostle’s Creed instead of the Nicene Creed. Every other church in our diocese says the Nicene Creed like they are supposed to.

The GIRM states that the Apostle’s Creed can be used at Children’s Masses, and the Nicene Creed is to be used otherwise.

It is my understanding that this is an abuse and it is not one of minor import.

 

[Orionthehunter]

paramedicgirl:

Since the priest is from Africa and speaks with an accent, he may be uncomfortable reading out loud, but then he reads his homilies all the time and we understand him…

You have a Priest from Africa? We have had two over the past few years as Associates. What a blessing they were to our parish and to the world-wide church. They were in the US working during the week at the Diocese. One was learning Canon Law and the other was learning Marriage Tribunal Law.

Their time with us gave me a whole new appreciation for the Universality of the Church. One time, the Associate from the Congo had invited people from a nearby city from the Congo to join him for one of their national holidays for a few days. While they were all here, he said a daily Mass for them and invited the parish to come. While most of the Mass was in English, they sang in their native tongue the Responsorial Psalm adn the Holy Holy, etc. plus all the hymmns with drums and flute-like instruments were from the Congo. It was inspiring and very interesting.

 

[thistle]

paramedicgirl:

Another thing we do regularly at Sunday Mass is have the EMHC go to the Tabernacle right after the consecration, remove the stored hosts, and then they bring them up in a procession for the faithful who are receiving Communion.

I looked this up in the GIRM and we are supposed to receive hosts that have been consecrated at that Mass. I think this is something that is a case of “old habits die hard”, and no priest has ever been able to change it.

Another situation is that we say the Apostle’s Creed instead of the Nicence Creed. Our priest tried to change that, and he was confronted by a woman who told him the Apostle’s Creed is so much easier to memorize for the children that he shouldn’t be imposing the Nicene Creed on the poor little dears. The result? In defiance of the GIRM, and thanks to that woman, we still recite the Apostle’s Creed instead of the Nicene Creed. Every other church in our diocese says the Nicene Creed like they are supposed to.

The GIRM states that the Apostle’s Creed can be used at Children’s Masses, and the Nicene Creed is to be used otherwise.

Can you point me to the section in the GIRM you are referring to because I can’t see it (maybe I’m looking in the wrong place).

What I found in the GIRM was that it doesn’t specify which Creed form to use.

The Profession of Faith

1. The purpose of the Symbolum or Profession of Faith, or Creed, is that the whole gathered people may respond to the word of God proclaimed in the readings taken from Sacred Scripture and explained in the homily and that they may also call to mind and confess the great mysteries of the faith by reciting the rule of faith in a formula approved for liturgical use, before these mysteries are celebrated in the Eucharist.
2. The Creed is to be sung or said by the priest together with the people on Sundays and Solemnities. It may be said also at particular celebrations of a more solemn character.

If it is sung, it is begun by the priest or, if this is appropriate, by a cantor or by the choir. It is sung, however, either by all together or by the people alternating with the choir.

If not sung, it is to be recited by all together or by two parts of the assembly responding one to the other.

 

[Joysong]

I was able to find documentation on a couple of Buffalo’s questions about abuse.

Item 6 (of 10): Priest leaving the Sanctuary at sign of peace (Sunday Mass) - abuse?

**Code: ZE03102822
Date: 2003-10-28

Can Priest Go Down Aisle at the Kiss of Peace?

**ROME, OCT. 28, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.

Q: Is it OK for the priest to come down during the peace offering to shake hands with the congregation? I hear this is wrong and I’d really like to know if it is or not since it makes me uneasy about our doing something inappropriate. – I.S., San Ysidro, California

A: The new General Instruction on the Roman Missal (GIRM), with approved adaptations for the United States, refers to this question in No. 154: “The priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration. In the dioceses of the United States of America, for a good reason, on special occasions (for example, in the case of a funeral, a wedding, or when civic leaders are present) the priest may offer the sign of peace to a few of the faithful near the sanctuary. At the same time, in accord with the decisions of the Conference of Bishops, all offer one another a sign that expresses peace.”

For the moment the above exceptions, which are quite reasonable, apply only within the United States as almost no other episcopal conference has submitted a translation for the Holy See’s approval.

The reason the GIRM dwells on this point is to put the kiss of peace into its proper context as a brief, and relatively unimportant rite in preparation for Communion; in fact, few realize that it is actually optional. It is the forthcoming Communion, not the priest, nor the good feelings we harbor toward our neighbors, that is the reason and source of the peace we desire for our fellows and the peace we receive from them. As GIRM 82 says, in the Rite of Peace: “the Church asks for peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family, and the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament.”

So, when the celebrant walks down the aisle shaking hands, the gesture, despite his good intentions, tends to inordinately draw attention to his person, as if he, and not the Lord, were the source of the peace that only Christ can give. Sometimes we priests can forget that being a “Pontifex” means being a bridge, and a bridge serves its purpose only when we walk over it, not when we admire it from a distance.

Carole

 

[Joysong]

Item 1: (Orion) We still don’t have any accurate picture of what Buffalo describes here. Thus are unable to respond on whether his interpretation of it being an abuse is correct. Also, we don’t know what the reference to “teen Masses” mean. Is he saying that teen Masses are an abuse? What makes a teen Mass an abuse?

(Buffalo) during Masses for teens - adults and children are called up at Offertory and stand around the Altar in a half-circle until Communion)

---

**Code: ZE04042524 (Zenit)
Date: 2004-05-25

And More on Letting the Children Run

**A Kentucky reader wrote: "Our pastor has several children’s Masses for the students (K-8) during the year. Sometimes he invites all the children to stand with him around the altar. Some of the children are very young and not attentive.

The directory for children does allow for some adaptations of the rite for children’s Masses, understood above all as weekday celebrations at which the vast majority are youngsters. But having the little ones stand around the altar is not one of them.

In some circumstances such as a church with a distant altar that hinders communication with children, it is probably preferable, as suggested by No. 25 of the Directory for Masses with Children, to celebrate the Mass in another worthy place.

Thus, while it is good that the children be close to the altar of celebration, some form of distinction should remain between the two spaces.

 

[YinYangMom]

Joysong:

Item 6 (of 10): Priest leaving the Sanctuary at sign of peace (Sunday Mass) - abuse?

Code: ZE03102822
Date: 2003-10-28

Can Priest Go Down Aisle at the Kiss of Peace?

ROME, OCT. 28, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.

Q: Is it OK for the priest to come down during the peace offering to shake hands with the congregation? I hear this is wrong and I’d really like to know if it is or not since it makes me uneasy about our doing something inappropriate. – I.S., San Ysidro, California

A: The new General Instruction on the Roman Missal (GIRM), with approved adaptations for the United States, refers to this question in No. 154: “The priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration. In the dioceses of the United States of America, for a good reason, on special occasions (for example, in the case of a funeral, a wedding, or when civic leaders are present) the priest may offer the sign of peace to a few of the faithful near the sanctuary. At the same time, in accord with the decisions of the Conference of Bishops, all offer one another a sign that expresses peace.”

So, when the celebrant walks down the aisle shaking hands, the gesture, despite his good intentions, tends to inordinately draw attention to his person, as if he, and not the Lord, were the source of the peace that only Christ can give. Sometimes we priests can forget that being a “Pontifex” means being a bridge, and a bridge serves its purpose only when we walk over it, not when we admire it from a distance.

Carole

Red:
This is what I have observed…special occasions…and in those instances it was clear it was the priest, personally, not acting as Christ, who was extending peace to the couple, the parents of the child/couple only.

Blue:
Interestingly, I take it to draw attention away from the original intent - where the communicants are the ones extending their own peace on their neighbor - and making it appear Christ is extending peace to the communicants, which is not the purpose of this practice.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

I was thinking about the different levels of understanding of Catholics re: liturgical abuses. I don’t know if it applies to this thread, but this is where I’m going to put it.

Young children follow everything their parents say with love and awe with only occasional questioning or defiance. They are usually able to fall right back in line when corrected. This reminds me of the simple Catholic the Catholic who is trusting that the Church and Her leaders will guide them. These people may be cradle Catholics who have already lived out the majority of their lives or newer Catholics. They have a simple level of faith, hope, and love for the Church that is so beautiful that it is refreshing. They don’t look for abuses nor are they ready to be bombarded with minor problems which others point out. I wish, some times, I could return to this.

Then there are preteen & teenaged children who are constantly questiong the authority of the parent some times with disrespect and defiance. They no longer honor their parents the way God intended them to do. Instead they believe they know what is best for themselves and their family. This reminds me of many (I’m not specifying anybody) who are constantly looking for the faults in their Church not honoring and respecting the leadership of their priest or bishops. Their faity, hope, and love is stifled by their pride. This is a very sad state and I believe extremely exhausting for the priest who is trying to lead the best he can.

Then their are the adult children who have finally realized that, though imperfect, their family is a beautiful group to be a part of. Yes, their parents are human and make mistakes, but they have the family’s best interest in mind and do the best they can. If major problems occur, these adult children will bring it up in a loving manner; however, the minor quirks of the family are generally overlooked or even looked upon with affection. These are like the mature Catholics who, yes recognize the deficiencies of their particular priests and parishes, yet know when to bring something up, and it is always charitable. Their faith, hope, and love enlightens because it’s based on mature spiritual understanding.

I know this is a simplistic way to look at what we’ve been discussing. I am just trying to avoid being like the teenager who is nitpicking, questioning, and making life miserable for those who God has placed in charge. Maybe I may one day be like the mature adult child.

God Bless You All
Quaere Verum
Seek the Truth

 

[Joysong]

Dear Quaere,

What profound insight in your last post!

I honestly believe it is the spiritual development of the teenager that is present in much of the antagonism going on. I’m embarrased to admit this, but at one time in the early stages of my growth, I highlighted all those areas in my bible where the prophets spoke their woes to the shepherds who mislead God’s flock. I was upset with some of the things I observed and thought the clergy were trying to lead us astray. (You don’t even want to see my bible! )

Maybe it is good for me to remember my teen years in the spirit, for I have much empathy for those who are at this stage. Have you read laments from those grieving parents asking how to handle their teens? The wise parents whose children have grown up tell them, “Be patient, this too, shall pass!”

When I grew into more of an adult, spiritually, my whole outlook changed and that’s why I am now so very defensive of our clergy. What I know to be true, though, is that the words of adults seldom get through to a teen, for they KNOW better. I guess it doesn’t prevent us from trying, though.

Bless you,
Carole

 

[Quaere_Verum]

Quaere Verum:

I was thinking about the different levels of understanding of Catholics re: liturgical abuses. I don’t know if it applies to this thread, but this is where I’m going to put it.

Young children follow everything their parents say with love and awe with only occasional questioning or defiance. They are usually able to fall right back in line when corrected. This reminds me of the simple Catholic the Catholic who is trusting that the Church and Her leaders will guide them. These people may be cradle Catholics who have already lived out the majority of their lives or newer Catholics. They have a simple level of faith, hope, and love for the Church that is so beautiful that it is refreshing. They don’t look for abuses nor are they ready to be bombarded with minor problems which others point out. I wish, some times, I could return to this.

Then there are preteen & teenaged children who are constantly questiong the authority of the parent some times with disrespect and defiance. They no longer honor their parents the way God intended them to do. Instead they believe they know what is best for themselves and their family. This reminds me of many (I’m not specifying anybody) who are constantly looking for the faults in their Church not honoring and respecting the leadership of their priest or bishops. Their faity, hope, and love is stifled by their pride. This is a very sad state and I believe extremely exhausting for the priest who is trying to lead the best he can.

Then their are the adult children who have finally realized that, though imperfect, their family is a beautiful group to be a part of. Yes, their parents are human and make mistakes, but they have the family’s best interest in mind and do the best they can. If major problems occur, these adult children will bring it up in a loving manner; however, the minor quirks of the family are generally overlooked or even looked upon with affection. These are like the mature Catholics who, yes recognize the deficiencies of their particular priests and parishes, yet know when to bring something up, and it is always charitable. Their faith, hope, and love enlighten because their existence is based on mature spiritual understanding.

I know this is a simplistic way to look at what we’ve been discussing. I am just trying to avoid being like the teenager who is nitpicking, questioning, and making life miserable for those who God has placed in charge. Maybe I may one day be like the mature adult child.

God Bless You All
Quaere Verum
Seek the Truth