Liturgical Abuses - So what's the big deal?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Quaere_Verum
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Quaere Verum:
Allow me to be a simpleton in the sea of great minds who have posted here. What constitutes an abuse? In the Redemptionis Sacramentum a grave matter of abuse is identified as “anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist”. Most of those are easy to identify; I suppose some are not. But how about lesser abuses? Is an abuse anything that deviates from the GIRM? If so then in order to identify one I need only to become familiar with the GIRM. If not then how can these be identified? What other source is available?
Click to expand...
Start here .
 
buffalo said:
Start here .
Click to expand...

This looks like a very good link buffalo. Before I start looking at the questions and answers, however, please tell me who put this out. I suppose the first step before reviewing a source and becoming even more confused is to check the validity of that source. I thank you.

God Bless You
Quaere Verum
Seek the Truth
 
buffalo said:
Start here .
Click to expand...

I suggest that you disregard a source that is undocumented regarding its legitimate authority. Look for the mind of the Church in legitimate documents prepared for the laity or to your Bishop (the legitimate Teaching Authority in your diocese).
 
40.png
Orionthehunter:
I suggest that you disregard a source that is undocumented regarding its legitimate authority. Look for the mind of the Church in legitimate documents prepared for the laity or to your Bishop (the legitimate Teaching Authority in your diocese).
Click to expand...
Hi Orionthehunter! First of all, you have got to be my favorite constellation in the fall & winter sky.

Secondly, I appreciate your comment. I will look for those sources. Thanks!
 
40.png
buffalo:
Fix is correct. The faithful have righ****t to participate in a correct liturgy. It is their **duty **to protect it per RS.
Click to expand...
And when determining what is a “correct” liturgy, don’t rely on people with agenda’s (whether they be biased w/ a liberal or conservative bent). Furthermore, just as we are to question people who present views contrary to Church Teaching on the Bible, we should question those who characterize legitimate liturgical adaptations as “abuses” when there is no such clear denunciation by the Church.
 
40.png
Orionthehunter:
I suggest that you disregard a source that is undocumented regarding its legitimate authority. Look for the mind of the Church in legitimate documents prepared for the laity or to your Bishop (the legitimate Teaching Authority in your diocese).
Click to expand...
Very true! However, after you take the quiz and look at the answers they are all documented with references cited.

and from the main page of the site:

Much of the information from this website was gathered from "Mass Confusion: The Do’s and Don’ts of Catholic Worship" by James Akin. Many thanks to him for this wonderful book. If you’d like more in depth information about this topic, I suggest you get a copy of this book. You may do so by visiting the “Catholic Answers” website at : catholic.com/ or calling their toll free number: U.S. Orders: 888-291-8000
Code: 
**Another source is "*Rubrics of the Mass*" by Fr. Peter M.J. Stravinskas - you can get a copy of this document by calling 1-800-348-2440**

**Also, Pangaeus Press, Box 670127, Dallas, Texas 75367, publishes the approved Order of Mass in English, approved for use in the United States, in a beautiful little paperback that retails for $4.00 (they give VERY generous discounts on bulk orders so that schools, parishes, study groups, or just concerned parishioners can have all the copies that they need.) **According to the permissions office of the ICEL, Pangaeus is the only publisher in the country to ask for, and receive, permission to print this text.
PLEASE NOTE: I am a mom of seven young children offering this website as an informational assistance to many who are confused about a proper Mass. I AM NOT a theologian nor liturgical expert! Please do not write to me posing questions related to the Mass or Liturgy, as I cannot help you. I would suggest you pose your questions to the Liturgical experts at the “Ask the Experts” forum at www.Ewtn.com – God bless!
 
40.png
fix:
Right now a parish is deciding if women should preach at mass and the bishop has said it is licit. Should the laity look the other way and claim the bishop says it is ok so it must be ok?

People want very much to obey Rome. That is not the issue usually.
Click to expand...
The laity should pray really hard for two things:

a) That the Holy Spirit descend upon the bishop to streghthen in him the four virtues in order to guide and protect him in such an important matter

b) That the Holy Spirit strengthen in me the gifts of understanding, knowledge, piety and fear of the Lord so that I may obey the decision of the bishop trusting in the Lord’s guidance and protection over this decision.

Since you’re praying for the Holy Spirit to particular guide the bishop in this matter then you would be able to have faith in the Spirit to respond to your prayers, especially if said prayers are combined with fasting and alsmgiving, right? Do all that you can then trust in the Lord.

If the decision made rubs you the wrong way after you’ve offered such prayers then the burden is on you to open your heart, ears, eyes, mind to trust in the Lord working through the bishop. Pray earnestly for counsel and wisdom from the Spirit so that you can come to understand this decision and obey it with a loving heart.
 
Alrighty then buffalo. I’ll just take a look at the links you’ve provided. Thanks for mentioning the source.
 
40.png
Orionthehunter:
And when determining what is a “correct” liturgy, don’t rely on people with agenda’s (whether they be biased w/ a liberal or conservative bent). Furthermore, just as we are to question people who present views contrary to Church Teaching on the Bible, we should question those who characterize legitimate liturgical adaptations as “abuses” when there is no such clear denunciation by the Church.
Click to expand...
Almost - some abuses Rome doesn’t even know about. Many abuses are claimed to be legitimate but are done out of ignorance or misguided good will. The rubrics are things we are to do in Mass, They usually do not refer to abuses. Clear dennunciation by the Church may not come for many years as in RS.
 
40.png
Orionthehunter:
Even if an adaptation is later determined to be an abuse, I think that characterization of the initiators (esp. if the adaptation ultimately was approved by the local Bishop) as ill-intended is harsh and lacks Christian charity.
Click to expand...
Absolutely agreed. There’s a rush to judgement prevalent here against anyone who wishes to expand the experience of the faithful to grow closer to Christ through the Mass and the parish.

Is it not possible that the Holy Spirit works through these ‘instigators’ to improve the faith of the parish community? Perhaps the Spirit moves the person to make the suggestion - that the suggestion isn’t even their own, but one sent by the Spirit to be communicated to the priest. The priest then would have to reflect and pray over the matter to come up with a decision within the limits of his competence, right? If the suggestion is not of the Spirit, the priest/bishop would be able to discern that. I trust in that.

I know for a fact, and there are a few posters here on this board who can confirm (since they were the source), that the Holy Spirit does indeed move us to convey His wishes in order to effect change within a community. I have reached out and people have ‘happened upon’ my posts, responded with precisely the information I needed to come to know God’s will better and they didn’t even realize how vital their (name removed by moderator)ut was.
 
40.png
buffalo:
Right! But, if a Bishop acted out of ignorance and now the Pope/Rome issues instructions that state the contrary from that point forward the Bishop should stand corrected and cease the abuse immediately.
Click to expand...
I think we’d all agree about that.

The issue, remains, however, the definition of ‘abuse’…until Rome clarifies any action/practice to be abuse then it remains covered under the limited competence of the bishop and we, as the faithful, are called to obey until the matter is resolved, no?

People here mistake variations for abuses too frequently, imo.
 
40.png
YinYangMom:
Absolutely agreed. There’s a rush to judgement prevalent here against anyone who wishes to expand the experience of the faithful to grow closer to Christ through the Mass and the parish.
Click to expand...
Ttrying to expand the experience of the faithful by liturgical innovation is not the “mind of the Church”.

Good feelings can be mistaken for the Holy Spirit.

In the past the laity did not have access to original documentation. Now we do via this Internet. Rome had to transmit its will through the Bishops. Now Rome can speak more directly to the people.

More people see now than ever before the errors.
 
40.png
YinYangMom:
I think we’d all agree about that.

The issue, remains, however, the definition of ‘abuse’…until Rome clarifies any action/practice to be abuse then it remains covered under the limited competence of the bishop and we, as the faithful, are called to obey until the matter is resolved, no?

People here mistake variations for abuses too frequently, imo.
Click to expand...
There aren’t as many adaptations as you think.
 
40.png
fix:
You have no ability to reason? One can’t hold an opinion?
Click to expand...
Sure you can, but to voice that opinion as fact when it is uncertain to be, as Orion pointed out, dangerously at risk of becoming “bearing false witness” and should be considered a grave matter.
 
40.png
YinYangMom:
Sure you can, but to voice that opinion as fact when it is uncertain to be, as Orion pointed out, dangerously at risk of becoming “bearing false witness” and should be considered a grave matter.
Click to expand...
Give an example. If you accuse another of such a thing that is not true youwould be as culpable.
 
40.png
buffalo:
The adaptations are documented and can be read by all. In addition the current GIRM and US adpatations are contained in the Sacramentary, which you see every week on the Altar at Mass.
Click to expand...
I think I’m confused…

are you viewing “adaptations” to be “abuses”?
 
40.png
YinYangMom:
I think I’m confused…

are you viewing “adaptations” to be “abuses”?
Click to expand...
No - adaptations approved by Rome are surely legit.

I should have been more clear. I was responding to this: People here mistake variations for abuses too frequently, imo

What did you mean by variations?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top