Liturgical Abuses - So what's the big deal?

[YinYangMom]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

This is not sounding quite right to me.
Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit?
Doesn’t that make the Holy Spirit just a little above Jesus. Are you saying that Jesus would somehow be less of something without the Holy Spirit?

Aren’t there three people in one God?

I would venture Joysong fully intended the whole Jesus is Divine thing there but in the rush to post was at a loss of words…it happens. I remember a time I made a mistake regarding Calvary…I typed ‘Calgary’ instead and a poster jokingly noted my error. She understood what I was I was driving at though despite my mistake.

Joysong’s point being while being fully Divine He still followed the directions of St. Joseph as a dutiful son.

I took her comment to note that we are no where near His Divinity and yet some of us believe we are equals with the ordained. I could be wrong about her intent, though.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

I just finished saying a rosary and offered it up for discernment in this area. Prayer must be the simplest way to deal with what I am experiencing during Mass - distraction and loss of peace due to the possible abuses I am seeing. Could it be that simple?

 

[totustuusmaria]

Quaere Verum:

I just finished saying a rosary and offered it up for discernment in this area. Prayer must be the simplest way to deal with what I am experiencing during Mass - distraction and loss of peace due to the possible abuses I am seeing. Could it be that simple?

Saint Francis said he would receive the Blessed Sacrement joyfully from the venerable hands of a priest whom he knew had a concumbine. There is something to be said for just praying and bearing with it as a penance.

 

[YinYangMom]

Quaere Verum:

I just finished saying a rosary and offered it up for discernment in this area. Prayer must be the simplest way to deal with what I am experiencing during Mass - distraction and loss of peace due to the possible abuses I am seeing. Could it be that simple?

You know, I think it can. Faith, trust, prayer. The Church is in good hands.

 

[MrS]

Quaere Verum:

Can somebody make this simple. Let’s assume that I am a simple Catholic not an intellect, and my greatest desire is to follow the teachings of the Church. What would/should I do to ensure that I am not participating in abuses?

I agree with netmil(name removed by moderator)… move to Michigan

BUT… come to my parish,…, lots of “abuses”, oops, I mean norms… but a great priest who will, in time, correct them while instructing the people.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

totustuusmaria:

Saint Francis said he would receive the Blessed Sacrement joyfully from the venerable hands of a priest whom he knew had a concumbine. There is something to be said for just praying and bearing with it as a penance.

You are so right about that. Thanks!

YinYangMom:

You know, I think it can. Faith, trust, prayer. The Church is in good hands.

We are so fortunate to have Jesus’ own words that say “the gates of hell will not prevail against it”.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

Wow, what a great day! I’ve gotten some wonderful responses, I’ve gotten to read the best of the best discussing the topic, I’ve obtained some excellent links, I’ve learned alot, and I’ve even gotten 2 invitations to move to Michigan where apparently there are very good churches and/or very good priests who plan to get everything in shape. Thanks all for your posts.

Any more posts would be welcome if people are still wanting to provide (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[totustuusmaria]

Come! Move to Michigan! More specifically, move to Ann Arbor.

 

[MrS]

Just a question… if Texas does not win, will you consider that an abuse?

 

[MrS]

totustuusmaria:

Come! Move to Michigan! More specifically, move to Ann Arbor.

just read your bio… cool… you too are welcome to visit Old St. Pat’s… a new and solid priest has been assigned… and his work is really cut out for him.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

MrS:

Just a question… if Texas does not win, will you consider that an abuse?

Now that’s a whole different thread. See you at the Rose Bowl thread.

 

[Eileen_T]

Quaere Verum:

I just finished saying a rosary and offered it up for discernment in this area. Prayer must be the simplest way to deal with what I am experiencing during Mass - distraction and loss of peace due to the possible abuses I am seeing. Could it be that simple?

Say the rosary during a liturgically-abused Mass like they did pre-Vatican II? That would deal with the distractions.

 

[Joysong]

Dear YYM, Thanks so much …

Joysong’s point being while being fully Divine He still followed the directions of St. Joseph as a dutiful son.

I took her comment to note that we are no where near His Divinity and yet some of us believe we are equals with the ordained. I could be wrong about her intent, though.

What I tried to say is that Jesus, although God Himself, obeyed finite man, and left us an example. God ordained authority, and in the scriptures we find so many verses teaching us to submit and follow God’s order.

1 Pt. 2:18: Servants, be subject to your masters in all fear, not only to the good and moderate, but also to the severe.

1 Pt. 3:1: Let wives be subject to their husbands.

Col. 3:20-22: Children, obey your parents in all things, for that is pleaasing in the Lord. Slaves obey in all things your masters.

And the most solemn words from Jesus, Himself, to His apostles and their successors: “Whatsoever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven.” “He who hears you, hears Me.”

There is never an excuse to override authority in the name of being wiser or more full of the Spirit.

Carole

 

[Eileen_T]

Let’s try to put this into context.

Archbishop Lefebvre taught certain things to his flock following Vatican II. What he taught was eventually condemned by Rome.

If some of the people posting on this thread are to be consistent, then the people in Abp Lefebvre’s diocese should have been obedient to his directions/teachings, without complaining to Rome, until such time as Rome discovered, for itself somehow, what was going on and censured him.

I can’t go along with this analogy. I didn’t then, as regards what Abp Lefebvre taught (even if he had been my Abp), and I can’t now as regards liturgical abuses that are condoned or ignored by my Bishop.

 

[YinYangMom]

Eileen T:

Let’s try to put this into context.

Archbishop Lefebvre taught certain things to his flock following Vatican II. What he taught was eventually condemned by Rome.

If some of the people posting on this thread are to be consistent, then the people in Abp Lefebvre’s diocese should have been obedient to his directions/teachings, without complaining to Rome, until such time as Rome discovered, for itself somehow, what was going on and censured him.

I can’t go along with this analogy. I didn’t then, as regards what Abp Lefebvre taught (even if he had been my Abp), and I can’t now as regards liturgical abuses that are condoned or ignored by my Bishop.

For me it comes down to this:

God knows all things.
God will protect His Church.

Whether or not people in his parish complained to Rome, I sincerely and firmly believe Rome would have found out in other ways and censured him because abuses to God’s teachings cannot and will not be allowed to prevail. We have Jesus’ promise on that.

Taking it in broader context I believe, based on the history of the Church, as noted before, that the errors which surround the Church and stem from within are there for a purpose - through the challenges the Church Herself grows and the faithful are the beneficiaries of such trials. In the short run, it appears there are only victims, but in the long run, all people grow closer to God through the fuller revelation of God’s will and the reinforcement of the belief in Jesus’ promise to protect her. There is no greater testimony to that than when the Church continues to rise above the ashes of battles waged against Her.

Is this not what is happening even now as a result of the priest scandal? Yes, there were tragic victims. Yes, peoples’ faith was rocked to the core. And yet, having the faith rocked like that moved many to re-examine the tenets of the Church, to seek, for the first time, perhaps, for themselves, God’s establishment of the Church and His promise to protect it until He comes again.

I feel the strength of a renewed Church since JPII and even moreso with Pope Benedict. It is evident through posts here on this board, on the radio and televsion through Catholic stations. The Church was challenged, shaken, chipped away at, and yet She remains firm, true, strong because of people like you and me, and all the other ‘faithfuls’ here.

The challenges will continue, some greater than those perhaps, some not as shattering, most probably as subtle as this confusion between ‘innovation’ and ‘abuse’ and this impression that anyone can read a Church document and fully know its intent/purpose (sounds like Eve in the Garden with Satan to me). The thing is we are certain Satan will continue to chip away at the Church’s foundation until Jesus comes again. I guess because of that I am not surprised or dismayed or worried really of any news which appears to degrade Catholicism. It just moves me to pray the rosary even more fervently for our clergy and Rome. It’s our most powerful weapon in this battle. I imagine it frustrates the heck out of Satan when we use it against his efforts.

 

[Joysong]

Eileen:

If some of the people posting on this thread are to be consistent, then the people in Abp Lefebvre’s diocese should have been obedient to his directions/teachings, without complaining to Rome, until such time as Rome discovered, for itself somehow, what was going on and censured him.

I can’t go along with this analogy.

Matthew****18:6 But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Note, Eileen, that Jesus will not cast the little ones in the sea, but those who scandalize them and lead them into error. If someone obeys lawful authority, even though that authority be wrong, these are not held responsible. I’m speaking now of serious conscience matter. We are taught in the 4th commandment to obey our parents, but if our parents command something that is mortally sinful, we need not follow.

There is an example of this in Acts 5:28, when the Sanhedrin ordered Peter and the apostles not to teach in Jesus name. Peter replied, “We must obey God rather than men.”

The thrust of this thread is whether to obey in a case of abuse, and to identify which things consist of abuse. I think we would have to weigh whether the law of God as expressed in the commandments is at stake in a matter mortally or venially sinful, or whether the abuse is so slight as to render it neutral as far as sin is concerned.

Many who advocate strict adherence to every prescription of law that is not a moral issue, like the pharisees did, and sneer at their fellow christians for nonobservance, are so uncharitable as to call into doubt their whole following of Christ.

Article 14, Lumen Gentium (Council Documents):

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion.

He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.” All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.

Carole

 

[fix]

Della:

Firstly, this thread has become a grudge match between posters instead of a discussion of the issue, so I demure to add anything more to it.

Secondly, and for the record, I didn’t say any particular kind of music is an abuse. I only mentioned the music as one more reason why the parish I used as an example doesn’t suit us. That would mean nothing, however, if there were no serious abuses taking place at that parish.

Thirdly, and finally, my main point was that when the priest himself is the one who introduces abuses, it usually reflects what a certain vocal or influential element in the parish wants. Instead, the priest ought to be following his bishop’s instructions and the GIRM not the wishes of anyone in his parish.

And finally, I see no reason why people can’t assume good will on the part of other posters. If we can’t do that then there is no good reason to discuss anything on the forum.

My reply was sarcasm. I am sorry if I did not make that clear.

 

[fix]

Joysong:

We are taught in the 4th commandment to obey our parents, but if our parents command something that is mortally sinful, we need not follow.

I think your reasoning in misdirected. In this thread, I have not read every post, no one has called for disobedience to a command by any priest or bishop. That is a central concept to keep in mind.

Some have posted documents that clearly show the laity have a right, and a duty at times, to ask Rome for clarification or help.

These fora allow those who wish to post news items, or discuss personal experiences and others comment on them. There is ample evidence to prove there are problems with liturgical abuses. That is not in question. Any reasonable person would agree with this.

No one is calling for the laity to be overly suspecious, or jump the gun, but if one has seen a pattern and has tried to inform themselves as best they can what is the problem with pointing out difficulties?

For months I have seen those more “liberal” minded accuse posters of judging others when they read evidence of heterodoxy or dissent. Now, I see when those who want to follow Rome are accused of disobedience it strikes me as hypocritical. Now, there are levels of importance to be sure, but as a general rule when a lower authority contradicts a higher authority one is bound to obey the higher authority. Do you agree?

How all that is discerned depends on the individuals involved and the circumstances of each case.

 

[theMutant]

YinYangMom:

While every i was dotted, every t crossed and everyone knew exactly what do to, expect and when - I would venture very few people understood the why behind it all. I know my father never wanted to know the why. He was more comfortable being a follower. Me? of another generation, I needed the why, following was not enough, I wanted to be an active part of everything I could.

However, it is just as easy (more in my opinion) to be a completel follower and not know the why behind it all with the current liturgy. It is also just as easy to know the why behind it all with the old liturgy. My point is, that it is not the variations available in the liturgy that help us to understand the “why” behind it all. Indeed, Rome is clear in that, even were variation is allowed, every i is dotted and every t is crossed! It is in catechesis, both in and outside of the liturgy, that we learn the why.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

This thread has been most enlightening. I have read all the posts, but must confess I didn’t understand them all as I am neither an intellectual or a theologian. So, unable to follow the content, I tried to follow the emotion, and the one thing that was evident to me is that despite the differing views all the posters seemed to have a deep love for the Lord and His Church. Is it possible that, even though they may be misguided, that our Church leaders also have this deep love? This realization is important for me in order to put my attitude right before attending Mass and receiving the Most Holy Eucharist.