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Subrosa
Guest
Actually, I see that there is already a thread on this subject, so I’m moving it over there! Thanks!
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Dr.Bombay
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I don’t know, but I assume a TLM could be celebrated in one of those modernist architecture monstrosities on the new altar, just facing the opposite direction. But, really, I’d rather drive downtown to a church with stained glass windows, statues, confessionals and altar rails, etc.
Of course, my downtown’s not that bad, especially on a Sunday morning. Can’t speak to downtown Detroit, as I’ve never been there.
Hey, mom! If I may suggest a reason why most TLM’s are celebrated at downtown parishes…nowadays, most of those churches are the only ones that still have High Altars. Not many suburban parishes do, unless they’re pre-Council and managed to avoid the wreckovators of the 70’s and 80’s.
I don’t know, but I assume a TLM could be celebrated in one of those modernist architecture monstrosities on the new altar, just facing the opposite direction. But, really, I’d rather drive downtown to a church with stained glass windows, statues, confessionals and altar rails, etc.
Of course, my downtown’s not that bad, especially on a Sunday morning. Can’t speak to downtown Detroit, as I’ve never been there.
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otm
Guest
Considering that this Pope was the last Pope’s right hand man when it came to doctrinal issues, and there are doctrinal issues between SSPX and the Church, I would say that not much has changed. You can bet as Cardinal that he was in the thick of the issues with Lefebvre.
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jlw
Guest
WHAT WILL THIS MEAN???
NOMINA DEL PREFETTO DELLA CONGREGAZIONE PER LA DOTTRINA DELLA FEDE
Il Santo Padre ha nominato Prefetto della Congregazione per la Dottrina della Fede S.E. Mons. William Joseph Levada, finora Arcivescovo di San Francisco (U.S.A.).
** S.E. Mons. William Joseph Levada
**Archbishop William Joseph Levada is a fourth-generation Californian, born in Long Beach on June 15, 1936. Except for a three-year interval when his family lived in Texas, he attended elementary and high schools in Long Beach, followed by four years of seminary college in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.
In 1958, he was sent to pursue his seminary formation in Rome at the North American College, and took his graduate theological studies at the Pontifical Gregorian University, receiving a doctorate in sacred theology *magna cum laude.
*Following ordination to the priesthood in St. Peter’s Basilica on December 20, 1961, he spent five years in parish work in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, including part-time high school teaching and college campus ministry.
After receiving his doctorate, he taught theology at St. John’s Seminary School of Theology, located at Camarillo in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. During these six years he also served as the first Director of Continuing Education for the Clergy in the Archdiocese.
In 1976, he was appointed an Official of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in the Vatican. During his six years of service, he continued teaching theology part-time as an Instructor at the Pontifical Gregorian University.
In 1982, he was assigned to be Executive Director of the California Catholic Conference of Bishops in Sacramento, the public policy arm of the Church in California. During his two years there, he was named Auxiliary Bishop of Los Angeles, and was ordained with the title Titular Bishop of Capri on May 12, 1983.
Returning to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles in 1984, he served as Episcopal Vicar for Santa Barbara County until his 1986 appointment as Chancellor and Moderator of the Curia.
On July 1, 1986, he was appointed eighth Archbishop of Portland, Oregon, and was installed on September 21. During his nine years in Portland, Archbishop Levada was able to devote time to the recruitment of priestly vocations and enhancement of the seminary at Mt. Angel, where he taught Ecclesiology.
Appointed Coadjutor Archbishop of San Francisco on August 17, 1995, Archbishop Levada was installed on October 24 that year, and succeeded Archbishop John Quinn, as seventh Archbishop of San Francisco on December 27, 1995.
Since his ordination as a Bishop, he has been active on many committees of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, as well as on the governing boards of the Catholic University of America, the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, and the National Catholic Bioethics Center.
From 1986 to 1993 he served as the only American bishop on the Editorial Committee of the Vatican Commission for a Catechism of the Catholic Church; he authored the Catechism’s Glossary, which was published in the English-language second edition of the Catechism.
In 1997, he participated in the Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for America, and was subsequently named to its post-Synodal Council. From July, 1999, to May, 2000, he was assigned additional duties as Apostolic Administrator of the Diocese of Santa Rosa. During 2000, he was designated Bishop Co-Chair of the Anglican-Roman Catholic dialogue in the United States (ARC-USA). In November the Vatican announced his appointment as a Member of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith.
In 2003, he organized the sesquicentennial celebration of the 150 years of the Archdiocese of San Francisco, which culminated in a July 27 Jubilee Mass at St. Mary’s Cathedral. In November, 2003, he began a 3-year term as Chairman of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on Doctrine.
He also serves as Grand Prior of the Northwest Lieutenancy (USA) of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem, and as Conventual Chaplain for the Western Association (USA) of the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta. He currently serves on the USCCB Delegation to the Mixed Commission for the Charter and Essential Norms for the Protection of Children and Young People, and on the Task Force on Catholics in Political Life.
[00575-01.01]
NOMINA DEL PREFETTO DELLA CONGREGAZIONE PER LA DOTTRINA DELLA FEDE
Il Santo Padre ha nominato Prefetto della Congregazione per la Dottrina della Fede S.E. Mons. William Joseph Levada, finora Arcivescovo di San Francisco (U.S.A.).
** S.E. Mons. William Joseph Levada
**Archbishop William Joseph Levada is a fourth-generation Californian, born in Long Beach on June 15, 1936. Except for a three-year interval when his family lived in Texas, he attended elementary and high schools in Long Beach, followed by four years of seminary college in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.
In 1958, he was sent to pursue his seminary formation in Rome at the North American College, and took his graduate theological studies at the Pontifical Gregorian University, receiving a doctorate in sacred theology *magna cum laude.
*Following ordination to the priesthood in St. Peter’s Basilica on December 20, 1961, he spent five years in parish work in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, including part-time high school teaching and college campus ministry.
After receiving his doctorate, he taught theology at St. John’s Seminary School of Theology, located at Camarillo in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. During these six years he also served as the first Director of Continuing Education for the Clergy in the Archdiocese.
In 1976, he was appointed an Official of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in the Vatican. During his six years of service, he continued teaching theology part-time as an Instructor at the Pontifical Gregorian University.
In 1982, he was assigned to be Executive Director of the California Catholic Conference of Bishops in Sacramento, the public policy arm of the Church in California. During his two years there, he was named Auxiliary Bishop of Los Angeles, and was ordained with the title Titular Bishop of Capri on May 12, 1983.
Returning to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles in 1984, he served as Episcopal Vicar for Santa Barbara County until his 1986 appointment as Chancellor and Moderator of the Curia.
On July 1, 1986, he was appointed eighth Archbishop of Portland, Oregon, and was installed on September 21. During his nine years in Portland, Archbishop Levada was able to devote time to the recruitment of priestly vocations and enhancement of the seminary at Mt. Angel, where he taught Ecclesiology.
Appointed Coadjutor Archbishop of San Francisco on August 17, 1995, Archbishop Levada was installed on October 24 that year, and succeeded Archbishop John Quinn, as seventh Archbishop of San Francisco on December 27, 1995.
Since his ordination as a Bishop, he has been active on many committees of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, as well as on the governing boards of the Catholic University of America, the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, and the National Catholic Bioethics Center.
From 1986 to 1993 he served as the only American bishop on the Editorial Committee of the Vatican Commission for a Catechism of the Catholic Church; he authored the Catechism’s Glossary, which was published in the English-language second edition of the Catechism.
In 1997, he participated in the Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for America, and was subsequently named to its post-Synodal Council. From July, 1999, to May, 2000, he was assigned additional duties as Apostolic Administrator of the Diocese of Santa Rosa. During 2000, he was designated Bishop Co-Chair of the Anglican-Roman Catholic dialogue in the United States (ARC-USA). In November the Vatican announced his appointment as a Member of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith.
In 2003, he organized the sesquicentennial celebration of the 150 years of the Archdiocese of San Francisco, which culminated in a July 27 Jubilee Mass at St. Mary’s Cathedral. In November, 2003, he began a 3-year term as Chairman of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on Doctrine.
He also serves as Grand Prior of the Northwest Lieutenancy (USA) of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem, and as Conventual Chaplain for the Western Association (USA) of the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta. He currently serves on the USCCB Delegation to the Mixed Commission for the Charter and Essential Norms for the Protection of Children and Young People, and on the Task Force on Catholics in Political Life.
[00575-01.01]
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netmilsmom
Guest
My opinion, B16 is moving him to a position which he himself can closely monitor and free up the SF Diocese for a more conservative Bishop.
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Kielbasi
Guest
The only sensible conclusion is that Pope Benedict sees Bsp. Levada as a man after his own heart, and very similar in philosophy, and that’s why he wants hims in a top position where he can aid in writing encyclicals and other papal writings and actions.
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A.Pelliccio
Guest
Those rites have differnt forms of the mass and worship. This is apples and oranges. We are talking about preserving the Latin - Rite form of worship, not complaining that our other catholic brothers do not worship they way we do. We are concerned that our Rite has been highjacked by psuedo-protestants in an attemp for politically correct and feel good Catholocism. 
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EJ79
Guest
I agree. But even a modest amount of change in the short-run, even if only producing “a few” noticeable qualitative results, will do a tremendous amount of good for the Roman rite in the long-run.
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EJ79
Guest
Sean O L:
He certainly accepted it the Novus Ordo, as well all must, but with SERIOUS reservations - even prophetic ones.
Do you also deny that his famous rebuttle in the nave of St. Peter’s during a session of Vatican II, disagreeing with Cardinal Montini’s (future Paul VI) remarks on liturgical reform, ever took place?
It is also not fiction that his time ran out, and since he did not hear the bell, his microphone was turned off and he continued speaking - and he finally realized this and stepped down from the podium humiliated, as he heard laughter coming from many of the council fathers. This isn’t fiction - it’s history.
Cardinal Ottaviani may have been seriously visually-impaired (in only ONE eye), but with all due respect, he was most certainly not stupid. To infer that he would lend his signature and name to a document he was not in total agreement with is to imply just that.
He certainly accepted it the Novus Ordo, as well all must, but with SERIOUS reservations - even prophetic ones.
Do you also deny that his famous rebuttle in the nave of St. Peter’s during a session of Vatican II, disagreeing with Cardinal Montini’s (future Paul VI) remarks on liturgical reform, ever took place?
It is also not fiction that his time ran out, and since he did not hear the bell, his microphone was turned off and he continued speaking - and he finally realized this and stepped down from the podium humiliated, as he heard laughter coming from many of the council fathers. This isn’t fiction - it’s history.
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EJ79
Guest
Beautiful!
I wonder if he will ever offer it publically as Pope? This would be a wonderful and powerful gesture to dispel any doubt that this rite is still alive, and that the “rightful aspirations,” to quote John Paul II in “Ecclesia Dei,” of those who prefer the Missal of St. Pius V are legitimate.
I really don’t understand all the bickering concerning the Missal of St. Pius V versus the Novus Ordo in this forum. Why can’t we respect the legitimate preferences of other people? I personally prefer an EWTN style Novus Ordo, because I was baptized in the Novus Ordo and it is what I have known all my life - but I love the Tridentine Mass nonetheless.
And frankly, I can’t understand the disregard coming from a Byzantine Catholic, based on some of the posts below, towards the liturgical chaos which prevails in the Roman rite. The Byzantine rite has an amazing liturgy which has changed very little over time, and has not experienced the abuse of it that plagues the Roman rite.
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lyoncoeur
Guest
Bravo MrS!!
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oat_soda
Guest
im confused on the whole issue. i don’t know weather the tridentine mass is better, or if the reforms didn’t go far enough. i belong to the neocatecumenal way. we have a very different liturgy then that of the tridentine mass.
during the catechesis, we were taught that the tridentine liturgy and those of all the orthodox churches that date post constantine circa 319, have been influenced by the mass conversions of the pagans as they adapted pagan customs into christian ones. the neocatecumenal way liturgy tries to get back to the early jewish-christian understanding of the mass as a celebration marking Jesus’s passover and our redemption into the promised land. the later developments in the mass over emphasized the laity offering God a sacrifice and lessened the signs of the bread and wine as a result. the mass became more solemn where they use to be more of a festive celebration.
does anyone know about this? i have some reservations because i love the trindentine mass and the divine liturgy of st. john chrystostom.
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viktor_aleksndr
Guest
Me too. I hope that an EWTN Style Novus Ordo will be implemented on every parish all over the world.
For it is in one language (Latin) that we will be united in prayer.
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Ricardus
Guest
Sometimes - - sometimes - - I wonder, half-seriously, whether we should just go back to the post-Vatican II pre-Novus Ordo “transitional” Mass that I served as an altar boy in my parish.
It was essentially the Tridentine Mass celebrated for the most part in the vernacular (accurately translated English), with some parts still said or sung in Latin.
But since that’s not going to happen, I would say that the so-called “EWTN” High Mass (English, Latin, Greek) is probably the most realistic model for a reform of the reform in the U.S. in the foreseeable future.
But in answer to the original question that started this thread, I have a feeling that Pope Benedict VI has something unexpected up his sleeve for a reform of the reform, and that it may surprise both Latinists and vernacularists.
As for Tridentine vs. Novus Ordo debates concerning superiority or validity or Catholicity, I am not qualified to comment, though I do believe that such debates are too often a squandering of precious spiritual energy over issues that are not in our hands and never will be.
Pray for our Holy Father, and for a true and fruitful reform of the reform in our lifetime.
It was essentially the Tridentine Mass celebrated for the most part in the vernacular (accurately translated English), with some parts still said or sung in Latin.
But since that’s not going to happen, I would say that the so-called “EWTN” High Mass (English, Latin, Greek) is probably the most realistic model for a reform of the reform in the U.S. in the foreseeable future.
But in answer to the original question that started this thread, I have a feeling that Pope Benedict VI has something unexpected up his sleeve for a reform of the reform, and that it may surprise both Latinists and vernacularists.
As for Tridentine vs. Novus Ordo debates concerning superiority or validity or Catholicity, I am not qualified to comment, though I do believe that such debates are too often a squandering of precious spiritual energy over issues that are not in our hands and never will be.
Pray for our Holy Father, and for a true and fruitful reform of the reform in our lifetime.
S
Steve_Green
Guest
Can’t wait for the day, and I believe it to be soon, for the PX Society to be reconciled with Rome. It will be a day that the moderist bishops will say " Oh no this will cause division and confusion" What do we have now ?
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Kielbasi
Guest
I think there is a very large chasm there, someone would have to make the first move.
The two positions,(1) that the new vernacular mass is valid or (2)it is not, doesn’t allow much wiggle room for both sides to save face.
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dts
Guest
Option (3): Or, the new mass is significantly revised such that most or all of the objectionable aspects disappear.
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carlycatholic
Guest
The way I see it: several Roman Rites going right now, several Eastern Rites going. The Eastern Rites are covered reverently and beautifully in the July/August Crisis Magazine (google crisis), languages and all. (Talk about a red herring; each uses languages plus vernacular as Eastern Tradition deems. No Problem.)
Roman Rites: TLM (partial indult) Latin, traditional rubrics (e.g., St. John Cantius, Chicago; also has NO Latin Mass);
NO Latin/readings, gospel, homily in vernacular
(e.g., St. Agnes, St. Paul MN, EWTN TV);
NO orthopraxis, all English, mostly OCP, GIA- type music (Haagen, Haas, Joncas, Schutte) and a little Latin when the choir sings;
NO “spirit of VII” anything goes; rock bands
up front with singers with hand mics and “all
the right moves” plus priests making up stuff
to replace authorized Norms and overconcentration on the wonderful folks in community. (vernacular)
These are the Roman Catholic Masses I’ve been to since VII; there may be more kinds. Somebody above said “All we want is CONSISTENCY.” TLM and Latin NO and orthodoxly practiced NOs pretty much are (with lapses here and there), from parish to parish, diocese to diocese;but it’s those last ones–the heterodox Masses that are all over the place where the feeling of awe-filled reverence for the Sacred Sacrifice loses itself in noise and self-this/self-that entertainment.
My hope is that Benedict XVI reforms the “reforms” that gave us that last category and some aspects of the second-to-last.
Roman Rites: TLM (partial indult) Latin, traditional rubrics (e.g., St. John Cantius, Chicago; also has NO Latin Mass);
NO Latin/readings, gospel, homily in vernacular
(e.g., St. Agnes, St. Paul MN, EWTN TV);
NO orthopraxis, all English, mostly OCP, GIA- type music (Haagen, Haas, Joncas, Schutte) and a little Latin when the choir sings;
NO “spirit of VII” anything goes; rock bands
up front with singers with hand mics and “all
the right moves” plus priests making up stuff
to replace authorized Norms and overconcentration on the wonderful folks in community. (vernacular)
These are the Roman Catholic Masses I’ve been to since VII; there may be more kinds. Somebody above said “All we want is CONSISTENCY.” TLM and Latin NO and orthodoxly practiced NOs pretty much are (with lapses here and there), from parish to parish, diocese to diocese;but it’s those last ones–the heterodox Masses that are all over the place where the feeling of awe-filled reverence for the Sacred Sacrifice loses itself in noise and self-this/self-that entertainment.
My hope is that Benedict XVI reforms the “reforms” that gave us that last category and some aspects of the second-to-last.
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carlycatholic
Guest
Oops, one more thing: for some interesting reading on influences on Vatican II and the “spirit of VII” that began to appear between 1966 and 1970, google Archbishop Weakland. Several interesting, historical rundowns.
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Psalm45_9
Guest
I am very happy, last month he permitted the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated at St. Peter’s, the first time in over 20 years!!! :clapping:
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