Liturgical colors question

[centurionguard]

After the Feast of the Epiphany there’s usually 6 weeks not forgetting the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord until the First Sunday of Lent. Six Sundays of Lent, Six Sundays in Easter, Four Sundays in Advent and depending on the three liturgical annual cycles of the Church year 2-4 weeks in the Octave of Christmas. Take the Christmas Octave of last Christmas for example (very short) in comparison this coming Christmas where Christmas Day lands on Sunday.

I’m always curious why the total number of weeks in Ordinary Time leading up to the First Sunday Lent remain in totality plus one added to the new Ordinary Sunday following after Corpus Christi doesn’t add up where the Ordinary Sunday left off before the First Sunday of Lent.

Sound Confusing?

Thirty-Three official Ordinary Sundays in a Liturgical Church Year. Thirty-Four if you count the Feast of Christ the King.

 

[Digitonomy]

I’m not saying that “Ordinal Time” is a direct translation of the Latin, but it does convey the idea that the Sundays are numbered. In other words, we don’t see the word “ordinal” in the Latin, but we do see that the Sundays are all assigned ordinal numbers.

Of course it could be said that most Sundays are numbered, whether it’s the second Sunday of Advent, or the fifth Sunday of Easter, etc. There just doesn’t seem to be a particularly good name in Latin or English for the Sundays or weeks of Ordinary Time.

 

[Corki]

Of course it could be said that most Sundays are numbered, whether it’s the second Sunday of Advent, or the fifth Sunday of Easter, etc. There just doesn’t seem to be a particularly good name in Latin or English for the Sundays or weeks of Ordinary Time.

That’s why I liked the old system better. What is now ordinary time were the Sundays after Epiphany and the Sundays after Pentecost.

 

[MarkThompson]

I’m not quite sure what you mean.

In English we used to say “5th or 6th Sunday of the year” which isn’t a direct translation of the Latin either, although it’s much closer

But that sounds like it ought to fall in the first half of February. When you talk about weeks “of the year” (and it’s not just Sundays, since we would have to talk about, say, “Tuesday in the 11th Week of the Year”), it would sound to everybody like you talking about the calendar year. A little strange when the Seventh Week of the Year is in February, and the Eighth Week of the Year doesn’t come until June!

I’m not saying that “Ordinal Time” is a direct translation of the Latin, but it does convey the idea that the Sundays are numbered. In other words, we don’t see the word “ordinal” in the Latin, but we do see that the Sundays are all assigned ordinal numbers

The reason why they use the word “Ordinary” is because the word itself comes from the concept of ordinal numbers.

Well, then the numbering should be conveyed by giving the weeks numbers (as we in fact do), not by assigning a new collective name to the entire season that imports a concept of numberedness.

In this context, ordinary and ordinal mean the same thing. The reason why I’m not personally in favor of using ordinary is because in contemporary English, the word ordinary is only used to mean “commonplace, not-special, etc” and that is not the idea that the Church is trying to convey in the liturgical season (or lack-of-season if you will).

What I mean is that people hear “ordinary time” and they think it means “the not so special time.” They don’t understand that the word is simply a reference to the fact that the Sundays are numbered.

If forced to cast a vote, I would probably vote for “Standard Time,” which wouldn’t carry the negative connotations that Ordinary does (“Oh, she looks so … so ordinary!”), but does run at about the same level of blandness as “Tempus « per annum »”.

More to the point, I don’t know where you are getting this idea that “Ordinary,” as we have it in the English translation, is “supposed” to be interpreted as meaning “ordinal, numbered” rather than “typical, plain.” Is there any evidence that that’s what it was intended to mean when the term was introduced? Generally in trying to understand a translation we would look to the source text, but “Tempus « per annum »” doesn’t carry any connotation of ordinality either. Is “Ordinary really means ‘numbered’” just a myth? After all, it’s not as through being numbered is in any way fundamental to the character of Ordinary Time.

Of course it could be said that most Sundays are numbered, whether it’s the second Sunday of Advent, or the fifth Sunday of Easter, etc. There just doesn’t seem to be a particularly good name in Latin or English for the Sundays or weeks of Ordinary Time.

Agreed. And I am not at all enamored of “Sundays after Epiphany” or “Sundays after Pentecost” either, which is about as utilitarian as it gets. The more I think about it, the more I like Standard Time. Ah, if only I could be put in charge for a day.

 

[FrDavid96]

…
More to the point, I don’t know where you are getting this idea that “Ordinary,” as we have it in the English translation, is “supposed” to be interpreted as meaning “ordinal, numbered” rather than “typical, plain.” Is there any evidence that that’s what it was intended to mean when the term was introduced? Generally in trying to understand a translation we would look to the source text, but “Tempus « per annum »” doesn’t carry any connotation of ordinality either. Is “Ordinary really means ‘numbered’” just a myth? After all, it’s not as through being numbered is in any way fundamental to the character of Ordinary Time.
…

I’ll keep it to just this point for now.

As I look back at older liturgical documents, those printed in the 1970s, I see both “Ordinary Time” and “Ordinal Time” being used. I still have an old lectionary, just for example, that calls it “Ordinal Time” although it’s not handy.

Do an internet search for “ordinal time” and see what comes up. (hint, the search engine will probably force a search for “ordinary time” so you’ll have to reverse that).

It won’t actually “prove” anything beyond that it isn’t something I’m just making up from my own imagination. You’ll find plenty of examples where the phrase “ordinal time” is used instead of “ordinary time.”

I can’t provide an actual document that says “we call it ordinary time because the Sundays are numbered” I can find such comments all over the place, but not anything one would call official.

 

[FrDavid96]

… The more I think about it, the more I like Standard Time. Ah, if only I could be put in charge for a day.

Sorry, can’t do that.

That would mean that we would be limited to only those Sundays in January.

After Pentecost, we would have to call it “Daylight Savings Time” and remember to spring the Lectionaries one Sunday forward in the Spring and fall them back one Sunday in the fall.

Too confusing.

 

[MarkThompson]

I’ll keep it to just this point for now.

As I look back at older liturgical documents, those printed in the 1970s, I see both “Ordinary Time” and “Ordinal Time” being used. I still have an old lectionary, just for example, that calls it “Ordinal Time” although it’s not handy.

Do an internet search for “ordinal time” and see what comes up. (hint, the search engine will probably force a search for “ordinary time” so you’ll have to reverse that).

It won’t actually “prove” anything beyond that it isn’t something I’m just making up from my own imagination. You’ll find plenty of examples where the phrase “ordinal time” is used instead of “ordinary time.”

I can’t provide an actual document that says “we call it ordinary time because the Sundays are numbered” I can find such comments all over the place, but not anything one would call official.

Oh, I’ve heard the thesis before; I know it’s out there. (That’s why I said, “Is it a myth?” and not “Is FrDavid imagining things?” ). All I’m really finding are sources like this one and this one, which just put forth the claim without any evidence. But if, as you say, the earliest liturgical documents from the '70s called it “Ordinal Time,” then that’s pretty decent evidence that that’s what was meant. That said, I don’t really approve of the idea of using a term in our translation carrying a specific meaning (ordinality) which has no basis in the Latin original. I have seen people report: “I’ve sat through entire sermons explaining the ‘deep meaning’ of the term ‘Ordinary Time.’”

Incidentally, do you happen to know what they call Tempus per annum in other vernaculars?

 

[Digitonomy]

Incidentally, do you happen to know what they call Tempus per annum in other vernaculars?

Wikipedia provides links to articles in the following languages, from which I have excerpted the first sentence or two. Many seem to use some cognate of “ordinary”. I also thought it was interesting that non-ordinary time is referred to as “strong seasons,” as we see in Spanish:

Spanish: Tiempo Ordinario (también Tiempo entre el año) es aquella parte del año litúrgico distinto de los llamados Tiempos fuertes: Adviento, Navidad, Cuaresma y Pascua.

French: Le temps ordinaire est un temps liturgique représentant une fraction de l’année liturgique catholique. Il s’agit de la période obtenue en retranchant les temps forts que sont l’Avent et le temps de Noël d’une part, le Carême et le temps de Pâques d’autre part.

German: Als Sonntage im Jahreskreis werden im Kirchenjahr der römisch-katholischen Kirche sowie in den englischsprachigen evangelischen Kirchen, die dem Revised Common Lectionary folgen, diejenigen Sonntage bezeichnet, die nicht zum Weihnachtsfestkreis oder zum Osterfestkreis gehören und auch von keinem anderen Fest verdrängt werden. Diese Zeit heißt zusammenfassend „Zeit im Jahreskreis“ (lateinisch: tempus per annum, englisch: ordinary time). Der Sonntagszählung folgt eine Zählung der Lesewochen, die für die Feier des Stundengebetes von Bedeutung ist.

Italian: Il Tempo ordinario è quel periodo dell’anno liturgico della Chiesa cattolica e di altre chiese cristiane che copre la parte dell’anno nella quale non ci sono tempi forti: nella forma ordinaria del rito romano va dal lunedì dopo la domenica del Battesimo del Signore all’inizio del tempo di Quaresima (che inizia con il mercoledì delle ceneri), e riprende dopo la solennità di Pentecoste per arrivare alle soglie del tempo di Avvento.

Portuguese: O Tempo Comum é um período do Ano litúrgico de trinta e três ou trinta e quatro semanas nas quais são celebrados, na sua globalidade, os Mistérios de Cristo. Comemora-se o próprio Mistério de Cristo em sua plenitude, principalmente aos domingos.

Russian: Обычное время, Рядовое время [1] (Рядовой период, лат. Tempus per annum) - часть литургического года в с западной традиции Крещения до Пепельной Среды и с Праздника Пятидесятницы до начала Адвента .

Slovenian: Cezročné obdobie alebo obdobie cez rok je obdobie liturgického roka, ktoré nepatrí ani k vianočnému, ani veľkonočnému cyklu.

Polish: Okres zwykły - trzydzieści trzy lub trzydzieści cztery tygodnie w ciągu cyklu rocznego, w które nie obchodzi się żadnej szczegółowej tajemnicy Chrystusa.

Czech: Liturgické mezidobí je obdobím liturgického roku, které nepatří ani k vánočnímu, ani velikonočnímu cyklu.

Korean: 연중 시기 (영어: Ordinary Time, 라틴어: Per Annum)는 로마 가톨릭 전례력에서 대림 시기, 성탄 시기, 사순 시기, 부활 시기를 제외한 특별한 그리스도의 신비를 기념하지는 않는 날들이다.

I also find it interesting that the Korean font does not accept bold formatting on CAF.