Liturgical Dance?

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Don_Jackson said:
I’m sorry but if you think dance is not a part of western culture you might be mistaken. It might be true of Baptist culture, but surly not all of western culture.
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Where did I say dance was not a part of western culture? Nowhere! I said it was not part of the tradition of the Latin Catholic Church. There is a difference.
 
So here’s a question: Since North America populations are not only made up of folks with European ancestry, why would it be right for Africans to dance/sway in Africa, but wrong for them to do it here?
 
TrueLight said:
So here’s a question: Since North America populations are not only made up of folks with European ancestry, why would it be right for Africans to dance/sway in Africa, but wrong for them to do it here?
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The problem is that people of European ancestry might misunderstand the purpose of the dance. We do not dance as part of our worship. For those of us of European descent we see dance in a different light to liturgy. Most of us would not understand dance as an inherent component of worship unlike Africans for whom this is a part of their culture. To get a definitive answer you would need to pose your question to the Church. But, I believe inculturation takes place in places where a culture is indigenous rather than in a place to which is has been exported.
 
On the feast of Guadalupe our Hispanic community does a procession down the avenue in our town, carrying a large statue of Mary and dancing it down the street. They stop in front of the Church for about 20 minutes of dancing, drumming and singing. The participants wear colorful native costumes and use several drums and shakers along with native vocalizations. At the start of Mass they dance in procession with Mary and carry her to the altar. It is awesome. The devotion and reverence are contagious. The drums are very powerful when played together, a bass drum, several toms, shakers. We then do a bilingual Mass, the readings are alternated, the verses of hymns are alternated in Spanish-English. The spanish ensemble features the piano, a couple of guitars, standup bass, trumpets. The Gloria is awesome. At offertory they also process with the gifts, drumming and dancing the gifts to the priest.
This particular Mass draws quite a crowd from both communities. There are some who grumble about it, but not many. I think it is a tremedous experience.
 
clem456 said:
On the feast of Guadalupe our Hispanic community does a procession down the avenue in our town, carrying a large statue of Mary and dancing it down the street. They stop in front of the Church for about 20 minutes of dancing, drumming and singing. The participants wear colorful native costumes and use several drums and shakers along with native vocalizations. At the start of Mass they dance in procession with Mary and carry her to the altar. It is awesome. The devotion and reverence are contagious. The drums are very powerful when played together, a bass drum, several toms, shakers. We then do a bilingual Mass, the readings are alternated, the verses of hymns are alternated in Spanish-English. The spanish ensemble features the piano, a couple of guitars, standup bass, trumpets. The Gloria is awesome. At offertory they also process with the gifts, drumming and dancing the gifts to the priest.
This particular Mass draws quite a crowd from both communities. There are some who grumble about it, but not many. I think it is a tremedous experience.
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A tremedous experience that goes against the will of the church,
 
Ok so according to FR Z’s blog in a particular case of liturgical dancing, there may be a problem.

This Mass I am describing is not “liturgical dancing” for it’s own sake. It is the procession of the Mass using native Mexican instruments, dress, and dance, with Our Lady of Gualalupe as the focal point.
I don’t know, maybe Fr Z should talk to our bishop for clarification in this instance, cause in this diocese, this celebration of the Mass is perfectly fine. It is expressing the culture of the people who are actively and consciously participating in it, as Vatican 2 encouraged.
 
clem456 said:
Ok so according to FR Z’s blog in a particular case of liturgical dancing, there may be a problem.

This Mass I am describing is not “liturgical dancing” for it’s own sake. It is the procession of the Mass using native Mexican instruments, dress, and dance, with Our Lady of Gualalupe as the focal point.
I don’t know, maybe Fr Z should talk to our bishop for clarification in this instance, cause in this diocese, this celebration of the Mass is perfectly fine. It is expressing the culture of the people who are actively and consciously participating in it, as Vatican 2 encouraged.
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Actually, the CDW has power over your bishop, not the other way around. It’s not a question of “what is allowed in your diocese.” Either it’s allowed, or it’s not. Also, the CDW doesn’t say anything about dancing “for it’s own sake” or dancing “with OLG as a focal point.” It simply says this:

“The liturgical law of the Roman Rite does not forsee the use of dance or drama within the Sacred Liturgy… any other practice is to be considered an abuse.”

The CDW doesn’t care what the “focal point” is. It cares that we don’t dance, regardless of the bishop’s views.
 
superamazingman said:
Actually, the CDW has power over your bishop, not the other way around. It’s not a question of “what is allowed in your diocese.”
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No kidding…

This is not a drama, like a school play, it is a highly devout and reverential procession as part of the Mass. Surely the difference can be seen? And surely our bishop knows more about this than you or I or Fr Z ? I would think it presumptuous to make pronouncements on a Mass that one has never seen, comparing it to another Mass one has never seen that is merely referenced on an internet blog. Our Bishop has presided at this Mass, as we have a large Hispanic population that we minister to here. Are you sir, saying our bishop is participating in litugical abuse?
 
buffalo said:
Interestingly, however, Ratzinger sees no incompatibility between this unequivocal judgement against ‘liturgical dance’ and approval for those forms of ‘inculturation’ which the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship has allowed (since its Instruction of 1995) for certain African liturgies. He says (p. 199):
None of the Christian rites include dancing. What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean [Congolese] form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion. It provides an inner discipline and order for the various stages of the liturgy, bestowing on them beauty and, above all, making them worthy of God.
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I saw that quite a bit when I was in Tanzania. This was at a parish dedication at a new parish. The choir processes in a rhythmic way, using their feet to keep time.

For example, here is a video I took of the choir as it processed towards the Church from the (still unfinished) rectory.

sdrv.ms/V2jAMg

That is RADICALLY different that what passes for ‘liturgical dance’ here in the US.

Here is another example. Same parish, but on the following Sunday.

sdrv.ms/V2kIzG
 
clem456 said:
No kidding…

This is not a drama, like a school play, it is a highly devout and reverential procession as part of the Mass. Surely the difference can be seen? And surely our bishop knows more about this than you or I or Fr Z ? I would think it presumptuous to make pronouncements on a Mass that one has never seen, comparing it to another Mass one has never seen that is merely referenced on an internet blog. Our Bishop has presided at this Mass, as we have a large Hispanic population that we minister to here. Are you sir, saying our bishop is participating in litugical abuse?
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Certainly there is a difference. There’s different kinds of dance and drama. That still doesn’t mean all those different kinds of dance aren’t banned from use in the liturgy. ALL kinds of dance are banned from the liturgy. The CDW made that quite clear in the letter.

And to be honest, it has nothing to do with Fr. Z. The letter is from the Congregation for Divine Worship, the vatican dicastery with the pope’s authority in the area of liturgy. Fr. Z only posted a scan of the letter with no changes. You could find that same letter in the CDW’s publication.

Also keep in mind: in past times, the number of priests and bishops in agreement with a heresy has sometimes outnumbered the faithful priests and bishops.

I am in no way saying that your bishop is a heretic. I’m just trying to make a point by bringing that up.

But I am saying that: yes, your bishop was participating in liturgical abuse. Bishops are not immune to it.
 
Brendan said:
I saw that quite a bit when I was in Tanzania. This was at a parish dedication at a new parish. The choir processes in a rhythmic way, using their feet to keep time.
For example, here is a video I took of the choir as it processed towards the Church from the (still unfinished) rectory.

sdrv.ms/V2jAMg

That is RADICALLY different that what passes for ‘liturgical dance’ here in the US.
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Exactly,this is what I am referring to in the Mass on Our Lady of Guadalupe. We have to be careful with our definitions of culture and reverence. The term “liturgical dance” has become so stereotypically charged that anything the name is applied to is seen as something akin to a pagan fertility rite. That is not the case at all.
 
Brendan said:
I saw that quite a bit when I was in Tanzania. This was at a parish dedication at a new parish. The choir processes in a rhythmic way, using their feet to keep time.

For example, here is a video I took of the choir as it processed towards the Church from the (still unfinished) rectory.

sdrv.ms/V2jAMg

That is RADICALLY different that what passes for ‘liturgical dance’ here in the US.

Here is another example. Same parish, but on the following Sunday.

sdrv.ms/V2kIzG
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I’m also assuming their bishop’s conference has received permission from Rome for this kind of thing. I thought I heard that they have.
 
clem456 said:
Exactly,this is what I am referring to in the Mass on Our Lady of Guadalupe. We have to be careful with our definitions of culture and reverence. The term “liturgical dance” has become so stereotypically charged that anything the name is applied to is seen as something akin to a pagan fertility rite. That is not the case at all.
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But it is the case that it is not allowed in America, or most western nations. why is that so hard for you to accept?
 
superamazingman said:
Certainly there is a difference. There’s different kinds of dance and drama. That still doesn’t mean all those different kinds of dance aren’t banned from use in the liturgy. ALL kinds of dance are banned from the liturgy. The CDW made that quite clear in the letter.

And to be honest, it has nothing to do with Fr. Z. The letter is from the Congregation for Divine Worship, the vatican dicastery with the pope’s authority in the area of liturgy. Fr. Z only posted a scan of the letter with no changes. You could find that same letter in the CDW’s publication.

Also keep in mind: in past times, the number of priests and bishops in agreement with a heresy has sometimes outnumbered the faithful priests and bishops.

I am in no way saying that your bishop is a heretic. I’m just trying to make a point by bringing that up.

But I am saying that: yes, your bishop was participating in liturgical abuse. Bishops are not immune to it.
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You are making a serious accusation about a Mass you have never even seen, that is presided over by the bishop of that diocese. You are using as proof of abuse a photocopy of a document posted on an internet blog, addressed to a specific diocese for a specific circumstance halfway around the world.You have never been to that Mass either.
But thank you for admitting that you do not know if our Bishop is a heretic.That is a relief.
 
superamazingman said:
I’m also assuming their bishop’s conference has received permission from Rome for this kind of thing. I thought I heard that they have.
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Read the part that I had bolded.
None of the Christian rites include dancing. What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean [Congolese] form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion. It provides an inner discipline and order for the various stages of the liturgy, bestowing on them beauty and, above all, making them worthy of God.
Click to expand...
Listen to the Cardinal Arinze video that was posted earlier as well. Yes, Africans have permission to conduct rhythmic processions. In fact, really, that is what just about everyone does in the pews when they sing. It helps them keep time. Which is distinct from what was shown in the Cathedral Our Lady of Guadalupe Mass. I really cannot image everyone making those leaps while in the pews 😛
 
superamazingman said:
But it is the case that it is not allowed in America, or most western nations. why is that so hard for you to accept?
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I just related in a post, that the Mass I described** is **allowed and in fact, in reality, takes place, in America, under the gaze of a Bishop. There is nothing for me to accept. It is a fact. What type of acceptance do you think is needed here, and from whom?
 
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