Liturgical Dance?

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clem456 said:
Exactly,this is what I am referring to in the Mass on Our Lady of Guadalupe. We have to be careful with our definitions of culture and reverence. The term “liturgical dance” has become so stereotypically charged that anything the name is applied to is seen as something akin to a pagan fertility rite. That is not the case at all.
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Actually, what was shown in that video really cannot be seen as an orderly procession. Read the part that I highlighted.

Nor is the Guadalupe Mass video really a part of their culture to do such at Mass. Does anyone really think that St. Juan Diego witnessed such at Mass?
 
clem456 said:
You are making a serious accusation about a Mass you have never even seen, that is presided over by the bishop of that diocese. You are using as proof of abuse a photocopy of a document posted on an internet blog, addressed to a specific diocese for a specific circumstance halfway around the world.You have never been to that Mass either.
But thank you for admitting that you do not know if our Bishop is a heretic.That is a relief.
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you can raz on me for making supposedly crazy accusations, but it’s really quite simple.
  1. was there dancing in the Mass. if yes, continue. If no, you’re fine.
  2. were you in the US? if yes, continue. If no, I can’t be sure of it.
  3. does the CDW forbid dancing, unless specific permission was given? YES.
Therefore, it was an abuse. You yourself say:
It is the procession of the Mass using native Mexican instruments, dress, and dance,
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There’s no getting around it. The CDW is not specific in the letter. It makes a very general statement: “The liturgical law of the Roman Rite does not forsee the use of dance … any other practice is to be considered an abuse.” It really doesn’t matter WHERE it’s written to. These letters are published for a reason.

You can question the authenticity of the letter all you want, but considering it’s quite in line with previous statements, as well as the general mind of the church, there’s no reason to believe it’s false. If you don’t believe me, write them yourself and see what they say.
 
Also, the rhythmic procession that I posted had NO real elements of the traditional dance of the region,

This was from a welcome reception put on by the parishioners at the Cathedral, AFTER Mass.

sdrv.ms/SWDvsK

Note that this was done well outside of Mass ( both figuratively and literally)

So no, even in Africa, they do not do their traditional dance in the aisles at Mass 😛
 
superamazingman said:
you can raz on me for making supposedly crazy accusations, but it’s really quite simple.
  1. was there dancing in the Mass. if yes, continue. If no, you’re fine.
  2. were you in the US? if yes, continue. If no, I can’t be sure of it.
  3. does the CDW forbid dancing, unless specific permission was given? YES.
Therefore, it was an abuse. You yourself say:

There’s no getting around it. The CDW is not specific in the letter. It makes a very general statement: “The liturgical law of the Roman Rite does not forsee the use of dance … any other practice is to be considered an abuse.” It really doesn’t matter WHERE it’s written to. These letters are published for a reason.

You can question the authenticity of the letter all you want, but considering it’s quite in line with previous statements, as well as the general mind of the church, there’s no reason to believe it’s false. If you don’t believe me, write them yourself and see what they say.
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You are making a serious accusation about a Mass you have never even seen, that is presided over by the bishop of that diocese, who you are also implying tolerates or participates in abuse of the Mass. You are using as proof of abuse a photocopy of a document posted on an internet blog, addressed to a specific diocese for a specific circumstance halfway around the world.You have never been to that Mass either.

The discussion is pointless, and you are out of bounds.
 
Brendan said:
Actually, what was shown in that video really cannot be seen as an orderly procession. Read the part that I highlighted.

Nor is the Guadalupe Mass video really a part of their culture to do such at Mass. Does anyone really think that St. Juan Diego witnessed such at Mass?
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I am not referring to whatever the wild dance that is referenced earlier in the thread, but the Mass I described in an earlier post. Quite a different matter.

Anyway, last post, not going to participate in unfounded specualtions about Church leaders on the internet.
 
clem456 said:
You are making a serious accusation about a Mass you have never even seen, that is presided over by the bishop of that diocese, who you are also implying tolerates or participates in abuse of the Mass. You are using as proof of abuse a photocopy of a document posted on an internet blog, addressed to a specific diocese for a specific circumstance halfway around the world.You have never been to that Mass either.

The discussion is pointless, and you are out of bounds.
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I am not going to look at Fr Z’s blog. I am not going to look at the letter on the blog. I know the Holy See prohibits liturgical dancing. The fact it happens and you have seen it does not mean it is permitted by the Holy See. The fact a bishop condones it does not equate to approval by the Apostolic See.

If you think that the Church has approved liturgical dancing, can you please produce an authentic, current, and valid ecclesiatical document that permits it.

You can check if liturgical dance is permitted or forbidden, for yourself, if you do not want to believe anyone on here. Because of your doubt you might want to write to:

Most Rev Mgr Arthur Roche
Secretary
Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Palazzo delle Congregazioni
Piazza Pio XII 10
00193 Roma
Italy
 
Okay so I see this is really highly charged… but my question isn’t answered.
The “liturgical dance” I’m talking about looked NOTHING like any of these videos (well, sort of like the one from Africa, but a lot less movement).Those videos make a whole little show!!! I looked for a video that was similar, but could not find one (because who videotapes mass?)
It SORT of looked like the first 15 seconds of this video: youtube.com/watch?v=HEPtBWLgdgg We did not have a flag though, and we were all in white with a belt to be in liturgical colors of Easter, and we were holding bowls of incense (the arm motion was mostly to spread incense/ not have us choke to death on it, and we entered walking rhythmically, then spread the incense by walking down the side aisles, then sat down. Later, we followed during the part where the priest/ altarboys normally spread incense, but it was just us and the priest. During THIS time, we were just walking normally.
Does that even count as dancing or did someone just name it rather unfortunately?

Also, in reference to “drama”, I’m assuming that some pantomimes during the gospel at mass once a month(different priest) that I participated in as a child were not okay.
 
waanju said:
Okay so I see this is really highly charged… but my question isn’t answered.
The “liturgical dance” I’m talking about looked NOTHING like any of these videos (well, sort of like the one from Africa, but a lot less movement).Those videos make a whole little show!!! I looked for a video that was similar, but could not find one (because who videotapes mass?)
It SORT of looked like the first 15 seconds of this video: youtube.com/watch?v=HEPtBWLgdgg We did not have a flag though, and we were all in white with a belt to be in liturgical colors of Easter, and we were holding bowls of incense (the arm motion was mostly to spread incense/ not have us choke to death on it, and we entered walking rhythmically, then spread the incense by walking down the side aisles, then sat down. Later, we followed during the part where the priest/ altarboys normally spread incense, but it was just us and the priest. During THIS time, we were just walking normally.
Does that even count as dancing or did someone just name it rather unfortunately?

Also, in reference to “drama”, I’m assuming that some pantomimes during the gospel at mass once a month(different priest) that I participated in as a child were not okay.
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We did not see what you did. Consequently, it’s difficult to give a definitive yes or no. Was it a dance? If it was then it was something the Church prohibits. If it was not a dance what was it? It’s very difficult to say whether what happened was right or wrong. We could get into a debate about what constitutes dance. It could get very complicated.

As for the other thing, the acting out what you called a pantomime during the Gospel. Yes, that, too, is not permitted.

There are many innovations that happen during the Mass. Mostly, they are wrong. Rather than look for a list of things that should not be done, which, in any case, does not exist, we should follow the rubrics. If it isn’t in the rubrics it means it should not be done. The rubrics instruct us in what should be done.
 
waanju said:
Okay so I see this is really highly charged… but my question isn’t answered.
The “liturgical dance” I’m talking about looked NOTHING like any of these videos (well, sort of like the one from Africa, but a lot less movement).Those videos make a whole little show!!! I looked for a video that was similar, but could not find one (because who videotapes mass?)
It SORT of looked like the first 15 seconds of this video: youtube.com/watch?v=HEPtBWLgdgg We did not have a flag though, and we were all in white with a belt to be in liturgical colors of Easter, and we were holding bowls of incense (the arm motion was mostly to spread incense/ not have us choke to death on it, and we entered walking rhythmically, then spread the incense by walking down the side aisles, then sat down. Later, we followed during the part where the priest/ altarboys normally spread incense, but it was just us and the priest. During THIS time, we were just walking normally.
Does that even count as dancing or did someone just name it rather unfortunately?
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I know what you’re talking about. I would certanly count that as a dance. A subdued dance, but dance nonetheless.

There’s also two problems with that:
  1. Things like this are COMPLETELY foreign to the tradition of the Roman Rite. GIRM no. 42 specifies that we must do “what is determined by this General Instruction and by the traditional practice of the roman rite”. Dancing is very contrary to that.
  2. If you are carrying incense, that is not allowed in the GIRM. It specifies a “thurifer carrying a smoking thurible.” Bowls of incense is not a thurible, and due to the lack of the ability to be swung by the priest, can not even function as a thurible. Therefore, they should not be used, reguardless of the situation on dance.
 
superamazingman said:
I know what you’re talking about. I would certanly count that as a dance. A subdued dance, but dance nonetheless.

There’s also two problems with that:
  1. Things like this are COMPLETELY foreign to the tradition of the Roman Rite. GIRM no. 42 specifies that we must do “what is determined by this General Instruction and by the traditional practice of the roman rite”. Dancing is very contrary to that.
  2. If you are carrying incense, that is not allowed in the GIRM. It specifies a “thurifer carrying a smoking thurible.” Bowls of incense is not a thurible, and due to the lack of the ability to be swung by the priest, can not even function as a thurible. Therefore, they should not be used, reguardless of the situation on dance.
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Oh okay. Good to know it was wrong. Thanks.
 
Here is a clip on you tube from the closing Eucharist Liturgy at the Religious Ed Congress 2011. This is put on by the Archdioceses of Los Angeles and Orange Co. with both Arch Bishops attending at various times. Liturgical (or rhythmic) dancers are used during the opening and closing Eucharistic Liturgies every year, and have been for many years. I don’t know if they have a dispensation from Rome or not?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL9tmkBS9K0&list=PL754182D986E0BF36&index+5&feature=plpp_video

Now I am going to sit back and watch the tidal wave!!! 🍿
 
CalCatholic said:
Here is a clip on you tube from the closing Eucharist Liturgy at the Religious Ed Congress 2011. This is put on by the Archdioceses of Los Angeles and Orange Co. with both Arch Bishops attending at various times. Liturgical (or rhythmic) dancers are used during the opening and closing Eucharistic Liturgies every year, and have been for many years. I don’t know if they have a dispensation from Rome or not?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL9tmkBS9K0&list=PL754182D986E0BF36&index+5&feature=plpp_video

Now I am going to sit back and watch the tidal wave!!! 🍿
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Oh gosh, don’t start posting videos from the three days of darkness.

There’s so many problems with this. Just because they do it doesn’t make it right, like I said above.

To be honest, I would run from anything done there. What a mess. Like I mentioned in post 47, those things simply aren’t an acceptable alternative to a thurible. In addition, the GIRM specifies one, not four.

Also, at 2:01 in the video, that most certainly is liturgical dance. Don’t know what else you’d call it. Then there’s three processions coming from all different directions. Where does that fit in the patrimony of the Roman Rite? It doesn’t!

Face it: they are wrong. The CDW said this clearly. It doesn’t matter who does it. It’s still wrong.
 
superamazingman said:
Oh gosh, don’t start posting videos from the three days of darkness.

There’s so many problems with this. Just because they do it doesn’t make it right, like I said above.

To be honest, I would run from anything done there. What a mess. Like I mentioned in post 47, those things simply aren’t an acceptable alternative to a thurible. In addition, the GIRM specifies one, not four.

Also, at 2:01 in the video, that most certainly is liturgical dance. Don’t know what else you’d call it. Then there’s three processions coming from all different directions. Where does that fit in the patrimony of the Roman Rite? It doesn’t!

Face it: they are wrong. The CDW said this clearly. It doesn’t matter who does it. It’s still wrong.
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So my question is: Why has the CDW not stopped this?, unless they permit it.
 
Well, I’m in Los Angeles, so at least this explains why people thought it was acceptable…

Come to think of it, we had liturgical dance at youth day here as well a few years ago… but that may have been before or after mass, just in the same area (I think it WAS separate).
My high school (also in the diocese) had liturgical dance at all their masses as well. Maybe LA has some special circumstance? 😊 I don’t think any of these masses were irreverent, but I’ll avoid them from now on…
 
waanju said:
Well, I’m in Los Angeles, so at least this explains why people thought it was acceptable…

Come to think of it, we had liturgical dance at youth day here as well a few years ago… but that may have been before or after mass, just in the same area (I think it WAS separate).
My high school (also in the diocese) had liturgical dance at all their masses as well. Maybe LA has some special circumstance? 😊 I don’t think any of these masses were irreverent, but I’ll avoid them from now on…
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I’d highly doubt they have a special circumstance. More likely, they’re just being straight up disobedient. There’s SOOOO many problems with this Mass that I would highly doubt that they are allowed to make any of the changes. Just in the first few minutes, I found several problems:
  1. liturgical dance
  2. multiple bowls of incense
  3. multiple processions
  4. unrelated people being added to the procession
  5. no cloths on the altar for the first half of the Mass
  6. no altar candles near the altar during the first half of the Mass.
And that’s in the first 7 minutes, even before the sign of the cross. AHHH!!!

In case you’re wondering, all of the above are clear violations of the GIRM. I almost always cite my sources here, but since there’s so many, I won’t look them up just to look them up. But if you honestly don’t believe me, I will.
 
Brendan said:
Exactly!

Cal, what more do you expect the CDWDS to do. They already said ‘no’.
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Bingo. Now it’s up to the bishops of the world (most prominently, LA) to finally obey and put a stop to this cr*p.
 
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