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misericordie
Guest
viktor aleksndr:
Not a matter of likes, the church is clear on this. Mass is NOT entertainment.
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4HisChurch
Guest
My understanding is that liturgical dance is not allowed by the Church, at least not in the U.S. I had read somewhere that it was allowed in certain cultures, Africa being one, I think.
I hope I never have to deal with it directly, myself.
I hope I never have to deal with it directly, myself.
P
palmas85
Guest
There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.
The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years – or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents – some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.
Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.
So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.
The above statement was made by Cardinal Arinze, who you might know is an African Cardinal. I think his statement says it all.
The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years – or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents – some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.
Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.
So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.
The above statement was made by Cardinal Arinze, who you might know is an African Cardinal. I think his statement says it all.
T
TOME
Guest
Concerning the question of Liturgical dance, first I agree with Viktor Aleksndr. If Liturgial dance is permitted then I think what he presented is a common sense guideline. As for actual liturgical dancing, my deference is to the Bishop of the Particular Diocese. I realize that there are standard, rules etc. that must be followed, however, each Bishop is the pastrol shepherd of the particular Church God has given him, so if a particular bishop allows it then I believe it is up to higher authorities to correct him in allowing it, especially if something like Liturgical Dance isn’t specifically prohibited as opposed to not being approved.
O
OurLadyOfEfes
Guest
This so called “liturgical dancing” is a product of the new age. No matter how much people like this farse it has no place at all in the Holy Mass. This is yet another “innovation” that brings the focus of the Mass off of Christ and on us. WRONG!!! I had the unfortunate experience with a parish in my diocese who decided to use “liturgical dancers” during Easter Mass. I sat there in such dismay and disgust that I did not even receive Holy Communion because I was so angry. I just knelt and prayed the rosary and prayed for that whole parish and the Priest. That was not the only innovation during mass. The Priest decided to change the communion prayer and the whole Church stood during the consecration. The only people that did not stand were those that were not from that church and my family. Unfortunatly this was the same Mass that my cousin and her future husband were Confirmed at. Also I am not sure if this was correct but this same priest confirmed them, and by the way it was not a grave reason that the Bishops were not there. Our Cathedral is only 15 miles away from this parish. I really dont like that the Bishop allows this when they could do it themselves.
Fortunatly I think that this Priest received so many complaints that I dont think they ever did that again!
Fortunatly I think that this Priest received so many complaints that I dont think they ever did that again!
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m8p
Guest
WOW! Been a lot of places - seen a lot of things - but I can truly say I dont remember anything a scary as this!
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
I know someone put up an excerpt from Cardinal Arinze’s unspoken speech that was to be delivered in St. Louis on April 8, 2005. It was never delivered because of the death of Pope John Paul II. But, the text was given to Adoremus Bulletin. Here is the section he had on Liturgical Dancers from the speech of the title shown.
You have to love the quote directly under the title of his speech.
**Liturgical Norms and Liturgical Piety
****“The people of God have the right that the liturgy be celebrated as the Church wants it”.
**8. Dance in the Liturgy
Some people want to introduce dance into the sacred liturgy. The Latin Rite liturgy has not had any such practice. We have therefore to ask those who want to bring in the dance to state their case. [Read that, it requires permission]
If they say that the reason is to make the Mass interesting, the answer is what we have just considered. We come to Mass to worship God, not to see a spectacle. We have the parish hall and the theater for shows.
Others say they welcome some dance in order to express fully our prayer, since we are body and soul. The answer is that the liturgy indeed appreciates bodily postures and gestures and has carefully incorporated many of them, such as standing, kneeling, genuflecting, singing, and giving a sign of peace. But the Latin Rite has not included the dance. [Right on! And, guess what else folks - The GIRM specifies genuflections are to be to the floor, for those physically able and that we are suppose to bow profoundly from the waist at the “Et Incarnatus est…” and we are suppose to bow our heads at the name of Jesus, when the three Persons of the Trinity are expressed together and at the name of the BVM. So why did it look foreign to me the first time I walked into a traditional, orthodox parish? All these things are truly Catholic - for real!]
It is not easy for dancers not to draw attention to themselves. [You have got to love this Cardinal] Granted that some very refined dances in some cultures can help to elevate the mind, is it not true that for many people dances are a distraction rather than a help to prayer? [Cha-ching!]
Dances easily appeal to the senses and tend to call for approval, enjoyment, a desire for a repetition, and a rewarding of the performers with the applause of the audience. [Clapping is not in the GIRM last I looked] Is this what we come to Mass to experience? [Nein!] Have we no theaters and parish halls, presuming that the dance in question is acceptable, which cannot be said of them all?
Is it true that in many parts of Africa and Asia there may be a cultural habit of graceful body movement which, with due study and approval of the local Church, may go down well within a liturgical celebration. The Ethiopian rite has known graceful rhythmical movements and the procession for the Gospel. The Roman Rite Mass approved for the Democratic Republic of the Congo has similar entry movements.
But this is very different from what the ordinary person in Europe or North America thinks of when the concept of dance is evoked. [Oh, man! I can’t catch my breath - he’s spot-on again![/color]] Can we blame people who associate dance with Saturday evening, ballroom, theater or simply, innocent enjoyment? [Nein, again] The liturgical books approved by the bishops and the Holy See for Europe and North America understandably do not authorize the importation of dance into church, let alone the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. [Did anyone just hear the door slam shut?] (see the article in the official bulletin of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments: Notitiae 106-107, June-July 1975, pp. 202-205. Editor’s note: this article is available on the Adoremus web site at www.adoremus.org/Dance.html)
Entire Speech: adoremus.org/0505Arinze.html
Oh how sweet it is.
I just love Cardinal Arinze. I just wish the speech had made it into the airwaves instead of text being held at Adoremus Bulletin only. This needs wide publicity. I haven’t enven read the rest of the speech yet, but I’m sure I am going to enjoy it.
You have to love the quote directly under the title of his speech.
**Liturgical Norms and Liturgical Piety
****“The people of God have the right that the liturgy be celebrated as the Church wants it”.
**8. Dance in the Liturgy
Some people want to introduce dance into the sacred liturgy. The Latin Rite liturgy has not had any such practice. We have therefore to ask those who want to bring in the dance to state their case. [Read that, it requires permission]
If they say that the reason is to make the Mass interesting, the answer is what we have just considered. We come to Mass to worship God, not to see a spectacle. We have the parish hall and the theater for shows.
Others say they welcome some dance in order to express fully our prayer, since we are body and soul. The answer is that the liturgy indeed appreciates bodily postures and gestures and has carefully incorporated many of them, such as standing, kneeling, genuflecting, singing, and giving a sign of peace. But the Latin Rite has not included the dance. [Right on! And, guess what else folks - The GIRM specifies genuflections are to be to the floor, for those physically able and that we are suppose to bow profoundly from the waist at the “Et Incarnatus est…” and we are suppose to bow our heads at the name of Jesus, when the three Persons of the Trinity are expressed together and at the name of the BVM. So why did it look foreign to me the first time I walked into a traditional, orthodox parish? All these things are truly Catholic - for real!]
It is not easy for dancers not to draw attention to themselves. [You have got to love this Cardinal] Granted that some very refined dances in some cultures can help to elevate the mind, is it not true that for many people dances are a distraction rather than a help to prayer? [Cha-ching!]
Dances easily appeal to the senses and tend to call for approval, enjoyment, a desire for a repetition, and a rewarding of the performers with the applause of the audience. [Clapping is not in the GIRM last I looked] Is this what we come to Mass to experience? [Nein!] Have we no theaters and parish halls, presuming that the dance in question is acceptable, which cannot be said of them all?
Is it true that in many parts of Africa and Asia there may be a cultural habit of graceful body movement which, with due study and approval of the local Church, may go down well within a liturgical celebration. The Ethiopian rite has known graceful rhythmical movements and the procession for the Gospel. The Roman Rite Mass approved for the Democratic Republic of the Congo has similar entry movements.
But this is very different from what the ordinary person in Europe or North America thinks of when the concept of dance is evoked. [Oh, man! I can’t catch my breath - he’s spot-on again![/color]] Can we blame people who associate dance with Saturday evening, ballroom, theater or simply, innocent enjoyment? [Nein, again] The liturgical books approved by the bishops and the Holy See for Europe and North America understandably do not authorize the importation of dance into church, let alone the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. [Did anyone just hear the door slam shut?] (see the article in the official bulletin of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments: Notitiae 106-107, June-July 1975, pp. 202-205. Editor’s note: this article is available on the Adoremus web site at www.adoremus.org/Dance.html)
Entire Speech: adoremus.org/0505Arinze.html
Oh how sweet it is.
I just love Cardinal Arinze. I just wish the speech had made it into the airwaves instead of text being held at Adoremus Bulletin only. This needs wide publicity. I haven’t enven read the rest of the speech yet, but I’m sure I am going to enjoy it.
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misericordie
Guest
I would personally walk out of the church. These pastors do this on purpouse. I refuse to accept that many of these pastors especially the religious order ones who think they can do anything at times (the more liberal ones) are just acting as if they don’t know better: This is insubordination at it’s best to Rome at the local diocese, and as in any major company, the BOSS should call them in and act upon this (provincials and bishops especially).
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Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Please read the words from Cardinal Arinze on Liturgical Dancers (I added text a few posts up) in his speech on Liturgical Norms and Liturgical Piety. Note that at the end of his speech he refers to another document on the matter, as well.
The way I read his speech it signals that anyone wanting to do “liturgical dance” here in North America, among other places, must submit their reasons to the Holy See for approval. He already addresses (essentially shooting down) key arguments that would likely be made.
R
Rosalinda
Guest
Yes, we had to endure liturgical dances at my parish of young girls lightly clad and barefoot running up and down all the aisles and in front of the altar. It continued for a number of years before I decided to resolutely maintain a fixed posture with my eyes down and focussed on a prayer book. If the priest was going to impose this pathetic, amateur display on me which would have been more appropriate for an audience of gleeful parents in a school gymnasium than I refused to participate. The girls looked both immodest and ridiculous.
There is worse yet. The parish priest gets into the act too on other occasions. At Christmas he likes to make his homily with the children all seated on the floor in front of the altar while he is dressed not as a clown but as a mouse. No kidding he comes out wearing pyjamas from head to foot and covers his face with a mouse mask. As a bonus his outfit includes a tail. Instead of a sermon he repeats the same children’s story about a mouse in the manger at the time of the birth of Our Lord. His story is as sloppy and uninspiring as his disguise. Some families find this so painfully ridiculous and unamusing that they choose not to attend this church on Christmas. I finally had enough of all the shenanigans and have found a Catholic eastern Orthodox church which celebrates the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom from the 4c. No more surprises: no tacky decorations, no liturgical dances, no mindless sermons and no priests who like to clown around.
There is worse yet. The parish priest gets into the act too on other occasions. At Christmas he likes to make his homily with the children all seated on the floor in front of the altar while he is dressed not as a clown but as a mouse. No kidding he comes out wearing pyjamas from head to foot and covers his face with a mouse mask. As a bonus his outfit includes a tail. Instead of a sermon he repeats the same children’s story about a mouse in the manger at the time of the birth of Our Lord. His story is as sloppy and uninspiring as his disguise. Some families find this so painfully ridiculous and unamusing that they choose not to attend this church on Christmas. I finally had enough of all the shenanigans and have found a Catholic eastern Orthodox church which celebrates the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom from the 4c. No more surprises: no tacky decorations, no liturgical dances, no mindless sermons and no priests who like to clown around.
T
TOME
Guest
Lux,
My questions concerning Cardinal Arinze’s statement were clarified for be in an earlier post (earlier I wasn’t sure if his statements were directed to the Churchs in Africa or the Universal Church - it it was pointed out to me that he ws speaking about the Universal Church) so that is not in question. However, there does remain the question concerning their Bishop’s position. Perhaps, you know what it is and if he does allow it is he doing so with in his authority - and if he is exceeding his authority has their Bishop been brought to task for non-compliance to a Church Norm?
My questions concerning Cardinal Arinze’s statement were clarified for be in an earlier post (earlier I wasn’t sure if his statements were directed to the Churchs in Africa or the Universal Church - it it was pointed out to me that he ws speaking about the Universal Church) so that is not in question. However, there does remain the question concerning their Bishop’s position. Perhaps, you know what it is and if he does allow it is he doing so with in his authority - and if he is exceeding his authority has their Bishop been brought to task for non-compliance to a Church Norm?
C
cainem
Guest
i honestly hope and pray that this is one american import that doesn’t reach theses shores, can you not form a pressure group and approach your cardinals and bishops over this?
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
CONGREGATION FOR THE SACRAMENTS AND DIVINE WORSHIP
IN 1975
The following essay appeared in “Notitiae” 11 (1975) 202-205, and is labeled as a “qualified and authoritative sketch.” It is the mind of the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship (presently called Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) that this article is to be considered “an authoritative point of reference for every discussion on the matter.” Therefore, it is commended for study by diocesan liturgical commissions and offices of worship. (This English translation first appeared in The Canon Law Digest, Vol. VIII, pp. 78-82).
**THE RELIGIOUS DANCE, AN EXPRESSION OF SPIRITUAL JOY **
[This is an excerpt that follows several points that discuss what kind of dance is permissble, with examples (see full text below)]
However, the same criterion and judgment cannot be applied in the western culture.
Here dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses: such dancing, in general, is not pure.
**For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever: that would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements; and so it would be equivalent to creating an atmosphere of profaneness which would easily recall to those present and to the participants in the celebration worldly places and situations. **
**Neither can acceptance be had of the proposal to introduce into the liturgy the so-called artistic ballet[2] because there would be presentation here also of a spectacle at which one would assist, while in the liturgy one of the norms from which one cannot prescind is that of participation. **[Note that someone had submitted it for approval and it was rejected. Here in the US, it sounds like ballet style of dance is what is most often seen!!!]
Therefore, there is a great difference in cultures: what is well received in one culture cannot be taken on by another culture.
The traditional reserve of the seriousness of religious worship, and of the Latin worship in particular, must never be forgotten.
**If the proposal of the religious dance in the West is really to be made welcome, care will have to be taken that in its regard a place be found outside of the liturgy, in assembly areas which are not strictly liturgical. Moreover, the priests must always be excluded from the dance. **
As usual, priests and bishops are certainly knowledgeable about this here in the US. But some look for any little thing to twist and distort what is here in order to suit their desires. Such behavior lacks good faith in the spirit of the letter where the intent is well defined in my humble opinion.
blessedsacrament.com/theology/q146.html
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