Liturgical Music Borderline Sacrilegious????

[Pax2u]

Any time it becomes “about the music” I just don’t think it’s right. What you described is not appropriate music for Mass, in my opinion.

Comparing this to using the tune of “Greensleeves” isn’t really a good comparison. Most people don’t know the original lyrics to this obscure old song…however, most people nowadays DO know Twist & Shout and We Are The Champions…and that’s what they will be thinking of when they hear those tunes.

If this person is indeed hired as music minister I would be finding a new parish for my weekly Mass attendance.

 

[puzzleannie]

It was a visiting band not the regular music ministry of the parish. No need to get in a swivet and start condemning the parish or the regular liturgical life there.

I would still talk to the priest on the off chance he is interviewing people for that position, maybe he is not musically inclined and would not know the difference.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Comparing this to using the tune of “Greensleeves” isn’t really a good comparison. Most people don’t know the original lyrics to this obscure old song…however, most people nowadays DO know Twist & Shout and We Are The Champions…and that’s what they will be thinking of when they hear those tunes.

Does that make Twist & Shout and We Are The Champions acceptable as adaptations to hymns fifty, hundred years later when they have passed into obscurity?

 

[Filii_Dei]

Comparing this to using the tune of “Greensleeves” isn’t really a good comparison. Most people don’t know the original lyrics to this obscure old song…however, most people nowadays DO know Twist & Shout and We Are The Champions…and that’s what they will be thinking of when they hear those tunes.

Does that make Twist & Shout and We Are The Champions acceptable as adaptations to hymns fifty, hundred years later when they have passed into obscurity?

I would suggest that your pastor, unless some sort of “oops” notification is given, knew that this type of thing was going to happen. He may have even thought that it would help the laity “participate” more in the Mass (sometimes they have a perverse idea of what lay participation is).

I would suggest you carefully consider what you are implying here.

Do note that the individual in question was a visiting musician. I have a feeling it was just a trial period to let the priest judge if he was up to scratch as a music director. If that was the case, he’s probably failed.

There is no way on this good earth that this person should be a music director in any Catholic parish. Even the modern pop/folk fans would probably agree.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Comparing this to using the tune of “Greensleeves” isn’t really a good comparison. Most people don’t know the original lyrics to this obscure old song…however, most people nowadays DO know Twist & Shout and We Are The Champions…and that’s what they will be thinking of when they hear those tunes.

Does that make Twist & Shout and We Are The Champions acceptable as adaptations to hymns fifty, hundred years later when they have passed into obscurity?

I would suggest that your pastor, unless some sort of “oops” notification is given, knew that this type of thing was going to happen. He may have even thought that it would help the laity “participate” more in the Mass (sometimes they have a perverse idea of what lay participation is).

I would suggest you carefully consider what you are implying here.

Do note that the individual in question was a visiting musician. I have a feeling it was just a trial period to let the priest judge if he was up to scratch as a music director. If that was the case, he’s probably failed.

There is no way on this good earth that this ‘musician’ should be a music director in any Catholic parish. It’s bad enough that secular tunes are being adapted into religious hymns, as St. Pius X noted. You don’t need to turn the mass into a rock concert.

 

[markomalley]

Originally Posted by markomalley
I would suggest that your pastor, unless some sort of “oops” notification is given, knew that this type of thing was going to happen. He may have even thought that it would help the laity “participate” more in the Mass (sometimes they have a perverse idea of what lay participation is).

Very nice job selectively quoting from my post.

Was there a reason why you quoted two sentences from that paragraph, but left off the third one: To be certain, you would be best to hold off and wait to see if such a thing happens again (at least IMHO)???

I’m not suggesting anything other than what you are right now. However, if this same individual is directing music again, and the same type of thing as was seen last time, then it becomes fairly obvious.

And as far as “There is no way on this good earth that this ‘musician’ should be a music director in any Catholic parish”, you may not have seen some of the Catholic parishes I’ve seen over the years.

 

[promethius]

Sanctus- We Are the Champions by Queen

I’m sorry, I have a hard time believing you’re not being hyperbolic when you claim that the sanctus was set to “We are the champions”. There’s simply NO way whatsoever to line up the sylables of the Sanctus with that music.

I understand that the music may have had profane elements, and that’s bad enough. You don’t, however, need to be incendiary and make impossible claims about it to make a valid complaint.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Very nice job selectively quoting from my post.

Was there a reason why you quoted two sentences from that paragraph, but left off the third one: To be certain, you would be best to hold off and wait to see if such a thing happens again (at least IMHO)???

I’m not suggesting anything other than what you are right now. However, if this same individual is directing music again, and the same type of thing as was seen last time, then it becomes fairly obvious.

I only wished to say that the phrasing of those two sentences suggested that you were already alleging the priest was an accomplice in the profanation of the Holy Mass, pending further evidence to confirm it, which I am sure was not what you intended to convey.

I do agree with you that if the priest continues to permit this travesty to continue, then he is guilty for failing to safeguard the liturgical tradition from abuse. However, that is not what I read from your original post, and I apologise for any misunderstanding.

And as far as “There is no way on this good earth that this ‘musician’ should be a music director in any Catholic parish”, you may not have seen some of the Catholic parishes I’ve seen over the years.

I have a feeling I know what you mean. Their music directors should never have become music directors to begin with.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I’m sorry, I have a hard time believing you’re not being hyperbolic when you claim that the sanctus was set to “We are the champions”. There’s simply NO way whatsoever to line up the sylables of the Sanctus with that music.

That could be said of all of the examples cited in the OP.

I understand that the music may have had profane elements, and that’s bad enough. You don’t, however, need to be incendiary and make impossible claims about it to make a valid complaint.

Why would you think this is being exaggerated? Do you really think the OP was “incendiary”?

From your post, it’s fairly clear that you would be supportive of the notion that litugical music should be appropriate. Could you suggest a recommended means for remediating the situation as shared, even if exaggerated, as you say? Perhaps that is advice in and of itself - proceed with more general feedback as opposed to a detailed musical critique …

Peace!

 

[mamaslo]

Hello,
at 5pm Sunday Mass yesterday we had a visiting music minister, as we have been in between music leaders for a while. My parents and I were completely shocked to hear the tune of Another One Bites the Dust adapted for the Gospel ‘Allelulia Antiphon.’ My mother and I could not hold in our laughter. It was completely outrageous and a distraction like no other! This ‘modern take’ on liturgical music continued for most of the mass, excluding the intro and exit hymns.

The mass went like this:
Allelulia-Another One Bites the Dust by Queen
Eucharistic Prayer-Creep by Radiohead
Sanctus- We Are the Champions by Queen
1st Communion Song-Eye In the Sky by Alan Parson
2nd Communion Song-Twist & Shout by The Beatles

the words were changed but the track/instrumental was the same, with surging electronic drumbeats. My whole family was outraged, and my dad found the music borderline sacrilegious. The visiting music guy that led this has applied for our parish’s permanent music minister position. Should my family complain to the priest? To the Bishop?
Do you find this ‘music’ sacrilegious or just progressive?

I just feel bad for any visitors that were attending our parish!

Hmmm…did you know that many of our hymns are based off of pub songs? They use them to help people with the words.

It is very progressive and creative to use such a method this day and age…we do have approved ways to get these things passed down the channels.

Part of music ministry is giving the people what they need. We have been advised to give cross-generational music not just contemporary…not just traditional…but something for everyone.

Another story was told by my music director, that one Christmas, when he was very young and hip…he did all contemporary songs and his priest said to him “while that was very nice, sometimes you just have to give the people what they need. Let’s do Silent Night”…and the whole church sang with them. He still keeps that in mind when he plays it at Christmas.

This person’s creativity should be lauded, but…he sounds young and full of ideas that might be his own. The prospective music ministry will need to learn what the congregation needs, he may be a fine match if he is willing to learn…he might be a bad match if only his creative ideas are all anyone needs.

Have you thought of talking to him yourself? Find out more about the person. Sometimes college just doesn’t prepare us for real-time.

 

[johnnykins]

Whenever my church tunes up “Glorious things of thee are spoken” all I can ever think of is “Deutschland uber alles” As others have noted this phenomenon happens. While comparing Haydn and Queen is perhaps a bit much, if the lyrics are OK, you are into a matter of taste - which, as we all know, is idiosyncratic and even for society changes over time. sigh

 

[roadsend]

Although I am not familiar with the melodies mentioned, this stuff cannot be any worse than some of the OCP tripe that we are regularly afflicted with.
Maybe if OCP finds out about this guy, they will hire him.

 

[roadsend]

…We all have a duty to ensure our liturgical expression is appropriately reverent.

P.S. For what its worth, when I read such things, I’m once again proud to be an Eastern Rite Catholic, where tradition still is the rule. Please try to experience the Eastern Rites at some point, if you haven’t already had such opportunity.

Having attended a few Eastern RIte Liutrgies I can understand and appreciate your pride.
That said, I am not proud of the disdain for Tradition found in the Latin Rite Masses offered in my area. What happens at our Masses is an embarrassment.
I want to have our Latin Rite Traditions back and pray for this to happen every time I go to Mass.

 

[TheMc]

Yet another sad case of what happens when we introduce non-liturgical music into the liturgy. First, random hymns, then questionable songs, then this.

 

[TheMc]

Should my family complain to the priest? To the Bishop?
Do you find this ‘music’ sacrilegious or just progressive?

I just feel bad for any visitors that were attending our parish!

You should write the bishop, and CC the pastor. He has a right to know, and the church has made clear that we may go to the bishop at any time.

 

[TheMc]

This person’s creativity should be lauded

To be honest, nothing about this situation should be lauded.

Part of music ministry is giving the people what they need.

Sorry, not really. The most important part of providing the music for Mass is filling the musical demands of the roman rite. Singing these things does not. Singing random hymns does not.

Thinking that liturgical music is about "giving people what they ‘need’ " is how we got into this awful mess in the first place.

Have you thought of talking to him yourself? Find out more about the person. Sometimes college just doesn’t prepare us for real-time.

If you do, make sure you study at least a little bit about the actual musical demands of the roman rite, not people’s preferences.

 

[promethius]

That could be said of all of the examples cited in the OP.

Well, yes, but the “we are the champions” connection was the most obviously falsifiable as a claim, so I chose that one…

Why would you think this is being exaggerated? Do you really think the OP was “incendiary”?

Because it is a far cry different to claim that music with profane elements SIMILAR to classic rock songs was being used, and to claim that the melodies were directly lifted from classic rock.

In other words, the claim is of something which is false, which likewise indicates a claim of copyright violation in the mix as well (which, if it were only similar music, would not be the case).

It also hurts the credibility of the OP. I believe that there is plenty of modern music out there which involves the profane and shouldn’t be used in mass. At the same time, I’m not sure I can believe that the music was really as bad as the person claims if they are willing to try and tell me that the sanctus was set to “We are the Champions”. My post was more a helpful tip to the OP that if they want to be believable, they shouldn’t speak in hyperbole.

From your post, it’s fairly clear that you would be supportive of the notion that litugical music should be appropriate. Could you suggest a recommended means for remediating the situation as shared, even if exaggerated, as you say? Perhaps that is advice in and of itself - proceed with more general feedback as opposed to a detailed musical critique …

The reason I did not give advice is because the correct answer had already been given: speak to the priest AGAINST hiring this person. If the priest does not listen, gather evidence and approach the ordinary (the bishop).

The advice and general feedback I was giving was to the OP in general as helpful observation on speaking in straightforward and accurate terms, and was important in it’s own and individual right.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Although I am not familiar with the melodies mentioned, this stuff cannot be any worse than some of the OCP tripe that we are regularly afflicted with.
Maybe if OCP finds out about this guy, they will hire him.

If you’re saying this is no worse than OCP, then I don’t think you really grasp the gravity of this particular case.

You should write the bishop, and CC the pastor. He has a right to know, and the church has made clear that we may go to the bishop at any time.

Here’s an analogy: the Church has also made it clear that we may disobey if our superiors order us to commit sin. Does that mean we cannot first point out to them the error of their ways before we resort to disobedience?

I don’t believe we should skip talking to the priest and go straight to the bishop. It unnecessarily burdens the bishop when it can easily resolved by a priest. The bishop will still need to be kept informed of such abuses under his watch, but we should also address the priest directly instead of only passively notifying him that we are sending a letter to the bishop. Only if the priest proves unwilling to listen is it then acceptable to bypass him altogether.

 

[Pax2u]

It was a visiting band not the regular music ministry of the parish. No need to get in a swivet and start condemning the parish or the regular liturgical life there.

I would still talk to the priest on the off chance he is interviewing people for that position, maybe he is not musically inclined and would not know the difference.

Puzzleannie…I read this from the OP: " had thought of this so my family decided that we would let someone else do that work. However, we are friends with the music visitor guy’s overseer and he thought the arrangement was phenomenal-the overseer is the one who offered the visiting musician a full time job."

From this I assumed the visitor had been offered the job at the OPs parish. Perhaps I’m reading it wrong…if that is the case and it was a one time thing I would not be switching parishes!

 

[pnewton]

Does that make Twist & Shout and We Are The Champions acceptable as adaptations to hymns fifty, hundred years later when they have passed into obscurity?

This is a red herring. The hymns mentioned are not fifty years into obscurity. Most of us know the tunes well.